AA Machine Guns with no Infantry

[FarEast]

I recently purchased the Wings of War Balloon Buster Expansion pack and I'm currently playing the solo mission.

Now I just evaded the machine gun post on the right and have swung round to fire off my salvo of Le Prieur rockets, however I'm overlapping the AA Machine gun post but outside it's firing arch. So my question is,

As the AA machine gun post has no red rifle marker indicating that it has an infantry unit attached do they still get to fire at me?

[FarEast]

I've also noticed that the AA Artillery cards also do not have infantry markers, so again if you overlap a card do I have to take an 'A' damage card?

[Teaticket]

Ground firing MGs are like planes and do not fire when overlapping. Also, as long as you are out of the ground MG arc it cannot fire, stacked or not. If the base has infantry fire (rifle) then it can fire even if overlapping. AA Artillery can fire if overlapped.

Hope this helps.

[FarEast]

Teaticket,

Many thanks for the reply. I'm aware of the overlap rules - Andrea & Pier explaned that very well in the rule book, but thank you for clarifying tha I understood it correctly.

What my issue is is best shown in a photograph.

In my recent AAR "Busting Balloons For The Boys" I overlap the back of a AA Machine gun post and wasn't sure if I should take damage from infantry.

This is why:

134835

As you can see I have two AA Machine Gun posts, the one at the bottom is from the Rules and Accessories pack and has an "Infantry" marker and would thus mean on an overlap I would need to take and 'A' damage card. The one in the middle is from the Balloon Buster expansion pack and shows no "Infantry" marker, so my assumption is that the unit is not able to fire back if an overlap occurred, the same for the AA artillery card at the very top.

In my game I decided to take the damage card, but I wanted to clarify.

[gully_raker]

:D G'day James!
If overlapping the middle MG card no card drawn in my opinion. Also no card if you are outside of the firing arc.
For the card with the infantry symbol you would only take a "B" damage card. Again I believe you only draw a damage card if you are in the Arc of fire from the Trench.
For the AA card you should just follow the rules re re-loading etc as it cannot fire every movement card.

[Teaticket]

According to the rules I have the iinfantry symbol shoots with one A damage card. Only special damage is inflicted, ignore the damage points. There is no arc for infantry fire, it has a 360* shot.

[flash]

James - when Balloon Busters came out it didn't have the 'infantry' marker on the cards - it was given that trenches cards had infantry & AAMG cards had an MG and infantry too. AAA guns do not have infantry as none mentioned in Burning Drachens. So, in the circumstances you've given, the aircraft would receive infantry fire from the AAMG post.
Rules state: "If the centre of an airplane’s base is within one ruler of distance of a trench card (or overlapping the card), the plane can be shot at by infantry fire....The plane takes a single A card of damage, regardless of the distance. Ignore the damage points on the card and count only special damage results." Both the rulesets mentioned are in the files section here (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=5) if you don't have them but bear in mind that these would have been superseded by the RAP (Rules and Accessories pack) which may now say something different. Certainly the trench card shows a B deck rather than an A which the previous rules suggest but as I don't have RAP I can't help you with that. :pint:

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I also have cards from both sets, and use them as indicated on the card. Not all Mgs. would have had a platoon of infantry assigned especially if defending a balloon.
Rob.

[gully_raker]

James - when Balloon Busters came out it didn't have the 'infantry' marker on the cards - it was given that trenches cards had infantry & AAMG cards had an MG and infantry too. AAA guns do not have infantry as none mentioned in Burning Drachens. So, in the circumstances you've given, the aircraft would receive infantry fire from the AAMG post.
Rules state: "If the centre of an airplane’s base is within one ruler of distance of a trench card (or overlapping the card), the plane can be shot at by infantry fire....The plane takes a single A card of damage, regardless of the distance. Ignore the damage points on the card and count only special damage results." Both the rulesets mentioned are in the files section here (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=5) if you don't have them but bear in mind that these would have been superseded by the RAP (Rules and Accessories pack) which may now say something different. Certainly the trench card shows a B deck rather than an A which the previous rules suggest but as I don't have RAP I can't help you with that. :pint:

:D Mate I will take a read through the RAP Rule book tomorrow & see if there are any changes.
Seems weird if the Card shows a B but you are supposed to take an A damage.:hmm::confused:

[FarEast]

That makes sense Kyte, especially if the MG units are assigned to the balloons.

There are no issues here with the rules - if the MG dishes out B or A damage that's what you take. However if you are in contact with the card then you take an 'A' card and only take special damage.

The issue here is ALL the cards that come with the RAP have infantry markers (apart from the AA Artillery) so the question is if you are in contact with ANY card that does not have an Infantry marker do you still take an 'A' card?

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I would think the B trench is infantry with no MG support.
Rob.

[Teaticket]

The infantry fire is always one A card. AA MGs can be either A or B firing.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

The infantry fire is always one A card. AA MGs can be either A or B firing.

I'm sure the rule book will bear you out Peter.
Just seems a bit illogical that a bunch of riflemen are as accurate as two MGs.
Rob.

[Teaticket]

I'm sure the rule book will bear you out Peter.
Just seems a bit illogical that a bunch of riflemen are as accurate as two MGs.
Rob.

Ah, but remember, the infantry only can do special damage, no direct damage hits.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

That of course is the other anomaly. Why should a single bullet be able to knock out an engine or cause a fire.
Rob.

[Teaticket]

Yes, sometimes the abstractions do stretch reality, or imagination, take your pick. I'll try to look at it as the whole regiment of sharpshooters aiming for and hitting the engine at once! :p

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Yes, sometimes the abstractions do stretch reality, or imagination, take your pick. I'll try to look at it as the whole regiment of sharpshooters aiming for and hitting the engine at once! :p

O.K. I'll buy that Peter.:cheezy::crash:
Rob.:surrender:

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

The RFC R504 that was the first aircraft lost (in combat) was shot down by rifles, granted they were low enough to be fired upon by a full platoon and were flying an unarmed aircraft.


I'm sure the rule book will bear you out Peter.
Just seems a bit illogical that a bunch of riflemen are as accurate as two MGs.
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

The RFC R504 that was the first aircraft lost (in combat) was shot down by rifles, granted they were low enough to be fired upon by a full platoon and were flying an unarmed aircraft.

I'm not saying that it could not be done Neil. They may after all have hit the pilot. Just that it would have been unusual to hit a key part, but not to be able to do any general damage to the fabric of the machine.
Rob.

[flash]

....The issue here is ALL the cards that come with the RAP have infantry markers (apart from the AA Artillery) so the question is if you are in contact with ANY card that does not have an Infantry marker do you still take an 'A' card?

Other than the AAA cards I would say yes, as they will be the old WoW cards & that was the intent, however, as they don't have the marker it can now be left to your discretion depending on the scenario.

[gully_raker]

:D G'day All!

I checked the RAP Rule book & yes it does state under Trenches P31 "Infantry fire has no firing Arc & can target an Airplane that has the centre of its base within a ruler of distance from it (including an airplane overlapping the firing card)
If there are several possible targets, the player controlling the card chooses amongst them.
The Airplane takes an A damage card regardless of the distance. Ignore the damage points on the card & count only special damage results. Infantry fire never jams.

I think this rule is slanted to be used in Trench straffing mission & not necessarily for AA Machine Guns.
Previously as stated by Dave (flash) above when the MG AA cards were first issued there were NO Infantry symbol so if you have some of those just use them for the Balloon Busting & use the Trench cards for Trench Straffing missions.

Works for me!:thumbsup:

[Nightbomber]

Yeap, Barry! What is missed sometimes is this: "...can target an Airplane that has the centre of its base within a ruler..." It is important that just touching the base with the ruler is not enough. So the infantry range of fire is longer...:confused:

[flash]

...So the infantry range of fire is longer...:confused:

That probably just reflects that the infantry are deployed anywhere on the card rather than at the fixed point of the AAMG Andrzej. It's also within strafing range ! :guns:

[Linz]

Yeap, Barry! What is missed sometimes is this: "...can target an Airplane that has the centre of its base within a ruler..." It is important that just touching the base with the ruler is not enough. So the infantry range of fire is longer...

I read that as the infantry have the same range as a mg as the rifle fire must be to the "centre" of the base.
As we measure mg's from post to base then base to centre is shorter by thickness of the peg.
Linz

[Naharaht]

On page 32 of the RAP it says,"In addition to their normal fire, the AA machine gun card may perform infantry fire once per phase (See Infantry Fire, page 31).
All the AA machine guns in the RAP bear the red Infantry rifle symbol, so I think that the absence from your card of the red rifle is due to it being from an earlier edition of the game.

If you look at the bottom of page 11 in the 'Balloon Busters' rulebook section on Anti-Aircraft Machine Guns, it also states there," In addition, the card can take a single shot each turn following the exact rules for trenches firing." So the additional Infantry fire rule has always been there.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Quite handy, having both examples of the card. You can use either of them to help fine tune the balance of your scenario.
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Never thought or come across this. Thanks for asking the question James and thanks to all who came up with the solutions. As I have both sets of cards it will be worth a revisit to the rules.