Turning Wings of Glory into a Dice Rolling game...

[KevinsHope]

So, my friends and I were questioning whether or not you could set up Wings of Glory to be a dice rolling game, and I found the concept intriguing. We were finding the damage tiles (damage cards if you are playing WW1) to be a bit…cumbersome. We also noticed that tiles were not getting randomized enough. So there were some issues in using the tiles for us.
Although my friends and I consider this as an alternative just for a change rather than the standard for our games, we enjoyed using the system that I came up with, so I thought I would share this variant with you all. I hope that some of you will try this system out and let me know how you liked it.

TABLE TOP DICE – A CRASH COURSE

In order to understand the concept I am about to present, you will need to be familiar with table top role playing dice, so let me explain very quickly about the way we refer to those. A standard dice has 6 sides, so, in table top gaming, we refer to that as a d6 (dice-6 sided). There are all kinds of many sided dice, but a 20 sided dice (d20) is the big daddy dice that everyone needs. For this concept, you will also need percentage dice, two d10 dice that have 0-9 on one of the d10s and 00-90 on the other, counting by 10s. These are pictured below. In the picture below, this would equal 92 (90+2).

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With percentage dice, there are a few rules. If you role 00 and 0, this equals 100 (pictured below). 10 and a 0 equals 10

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THE BASIC IDEA

I decided to take on the tedious task of counting each and every tile and creating a percentage chart for the chances that certain tiles would be drawn from the pile. I really wanted to reduce the ratios down to a system where I could use a d20 to role for damage, but, the numbers didn’t crunch well. I therefore decided to use percentage dice, which can be used for situations where you need 100 options. You could also use d100 (yes…they do make them) but it is quicker and cheaper to use percentage dice. It was easy to do it this way by converting percentages into ratios out of 100. I also needed a way for us to keep track of damage, since we will not have tiles to keep track, so, for most plains, I decided to use a d20 as a life counter. I then compiled the chances for different damages into a chart and delegated each possible roll of the dice to a possible tile, based on its percentage of rolling. For example, with A damage, there is a near 28% chance of drawing a tile that has 2 on it. So, respectively, numbers 18 through 46 will approximately represent this chance on the dice. I will attach the entire chart to this article, But I am providing the A damage chart as an image (pictured below) too so that you can see how the damage works. We will use this chart for the following example.
Also worthy of mention here, before I move on to the example, is that I decided to make special damage charts for each of the classes of damage. You will see these chances for A tiles in the second set of data in the image below. Rolling zero or one damage precludes the need for a special damage roll. All other damage must roll special damage as well in standard and advanced games.

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EXAMPLE

So, I currently have 12 health left on my plane. So my D20 is set at 12. I’m facing a plain that does two As of damage at long range. I am within that range with an opponent. The opponent fires on me. I must roll for A damage twice and for special damage twice. I roll regular damage twice. My rolls are 18 and 30.

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Referring to the chart, an 18 is 2 damage. A 30 is also 2 damage. So I will take a total of 4 damage. If we are playing a standard or advanced game, we must then roll for special damage. My rolls are 57 and 100, which are both “no special damage”. With A damage tiles, there is only about a 15% chance of rolling special damage.

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You can see how I used the chart in the image below.

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I then represent this damage by moving my D20 dice so that 8 is shown on dice.

APPLICATION AND CONSIDERATIONS

My friends and I tried this system out in actual game play and, overall, we loved it as a variant. We discovered that there are a few advantages and disadvantages to this system. We, as a group, thought the disadvantages were inconsequential.

Advantages

-This system was, over all, much faster than drawing tiles.
-Special damage is more randomized than it is using the tiles but still statistically equivalent.
-You can use multiple sets of percentage dice and roll more than one damage at a time.

Disadvantages

-Everyone can see your damage that you are taking.
-You will need to use more percentage dice to keep track of damage for plains with hit points above 20, rather than a d20 dice.
-Players will have to keep track of special damages without the damage tiles themselves.

-Please note that I have not, as of yet, made a D Tile Chart.-

[KevinsHope]

Did I put this in the wrong area or something? I'm curious as to why I am getting no comments.

[Teaticket]

I've found most here don't like using dice.

I like the idea of more randomization but it will be slower than drawing a card or two per shot if you have to roll the dice once for damage, looking it up, and again for special effects and look it up. Losing the hidden nature of the cards would for me be a big loss. It would work in solo games though, but I still think the cards are faster.
Just my opinion without trying it.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

One of the main reasons that I took to this game was its simple mechanics and the relief of not having to use dice and charts any more.
Rob.

[Nightbomber]

One of the main reasons that I took to this game was its simple mechanics and the relief of not having to use dice and charts any more.
Rob.
This is it. Although I like the thrill of rolling a pool of dice in some games (M'44, Commands&Colors series), when it comes to tables it may be annoying.
WGF's easy game style based on cards fits this system perfectly and easy to learn/explain to casual gamers or women/girls. It really works.
However, there is one, but important disadvantage of it, comparing to dice. The closed pool of damage results and the feeling that sooner or later planes will start falling down like leaves in autumn. The latter may be reduced by using multiple damage decks. I use at least two of each shuffled together.

Anyway, thanks for creating a new variant:)

[grumpybear]

One of the main reasons that I took to this game was its simple mechanics and the relief of not having to use dice and charts any more.
Rob.

I agree

[fast.git]

I've found most here don't like using dice.

I like the idea of more randomization but it will be slower than drawing a card or two per shot if you have to roll the dice once for damage, looking it up, and again for special effects and look it up. Losing the hidden nature of the cards would for me be a big loss. It would work in solo games though, but I still think the cards are faster.
Just my opinion without trying it.

I'm one of those perfectly happy with the card draw mechanic. To be fair, however, I was able to see Peter's critical hit (BOOM card) chart in action at Havoc... very cool. It takes a bit for experienced players to get used to, but the results were typically cinematic and often catastrophic. And it didn't slow the game down all that much... but it was only a few rolls all game, so the impact was minimal.

[KevinsHope]

Thanks for the feedback, All. A lot of the concerns expressed here such as the chart being annoying, it being slower, or the damage not being hidden, were things I thought may defeat this variant as an option, but my friends and I found that it is much faster (with one person being the chart master), the chart isn't annoying (with one person as chart master), and it really makes no difference for strategy if your damage total is known. People know if you are taking a lot of damage either way.

[Oberst Hajj]

I also like this game because it does not use dice. It just gives it a different feel than other table top games and as others have said, it's intuitively simple. The card draw system (for WGF at least) makes it very easy and simple to use limited ammo rules and such.


and it really makes no difference for strategy if your damage total is known. People know if you are taking a lot of damage either way.

Not quite. In friendly one off games it might not make a difference if people know your damage, but in campaign games or games at Cons it definitely does. With cards or chits, people only know that you have been shot a lot, not that you have a lot of damage. I've seen many of games where a player draws 10+ zero damage cards. Everyone thinks he's always about to to go down and flames and never does.

Your system is really well thought out though and your post was very detailed. While a lot of us might not adapt your system, that does not mean it's not a good alternative! Thanks for sharing it with us.

[Steel Legion]

I enjoy the game as is. No Dice. One Word Describes My Choice of why I play: KISS Keep It Simple Stupid

[STL06]

Agree with what others have said. I love WoG because it's a board game at its core with simple, but elegant rules played with miniatures. I've played miniatures games with hundreds of pages in rules, and that's just not what I'm looking for with this game. I have other systems for those. I also know that my wife actually will play and enjoys the simple rules and card based play. Adding dice rolls, record keeping, and more time between turns would be a no go for us.

[flash]

Did I put this in the wrong area or something? I'm curious as to why I am getting no comments.

As you have found out the 'or something' was rolling dice which is pretty much next to heresy with this game Kevin ! Still, you have figured out something that works for you & that's also the beauty of this game, its flexibility. Still trying to work out how an aircraft causes 2 A's of damage at long range ( "I’m facing a plain that does two As of damage at long range") but the system seems to be pretty straight forward. I'd suggest that once a player gets special damage give them the card or counters that go with it to manage the situation. I also agree that keeping damage secret can make a huge difference to a game - also the fun of the reveal !
Will I use it ? No, I'm with the guys (with pitchforks & burning torches) on this subject, but I appreciate the effort you've put into it and clearly your group think the same so keep doing it your way.
One other question....Now you have no use for your damage decks ....! :slysmile:

[The Cowman]

I am the guy who grinds up dice in a coffee grinder... (That is a loud job by the way...) :surrender:

You put a lot of work into your presentation Kevin. I give it a thumbs up and promise not to grind up any of your dice unless you ask me to. :boxing::thankyou:

[Strangely Brown]

Whilst I appreciate the effort that you have put in to this, I think you are in danger of over-compllicating the ease of drawing a card with rolling four dice.

You have also, perhaps unwititngly, included a bias which unbalances the damage.

By a quick study of your table I am just as likely to catch fire, get wounded, lose control and have the engines stop WITHOUT actually taking any damage as I am with suffering 1 or 2 pts of damage. I am also far more likely to have these events occur without taking any damage as I am if I took any damage at 3 or over.

However, this scenario is automatically prevented under the card/chit system.

Maybe you need to caveat the second roll (for special damage) to rolls under 47%?

[KevinsHope]

No...I will still use my damage tiles. This is just an option to mix things up every once in a while. I haven't converted to sacrilege permanently...only when the sermon is getting old! LOL

[KevinsHope]

Yeah...I didn't include it here, but there is a rule among us that zero or one damage precludes the roll for special damage. I forgot to add that. I will do that now.

[CelticCat]

I have to admit that I am not a mathematician or statistician and do not even play one while gaming. That being said, it seems that your dice rolling method gives you a better randomization for the damage, almost like, instead of pulling the damage tiles in order, you pull them like one pulls a card from a magician's trick. That appeals to me I have to say. On the other side, however, it also increases the possibility of there being more than two BOOM cards showing up in a period of time. That would apply to any other damage as well.

The main drawback I see is in the strategy arena, as others have stated. By allowing others to see your remaining damage you lose some 'bluffing'. I suppose this could be addressed with a blind around your damage d20. Also, the fact that you have to roll for special damage gives away that you just took 3 or more damage points. And, by having a chart master, at least one other player knows what special damage you have taken.

I am split on the idea. I think I would like to try it, especially for solo play. For campaign or competition, however, you would have to develop ways of hiding your damage and misdirecting opponents. Perhaps using a special damage roll all the time, whether you need it or not, and keeping your own charts. I do agree that it is not as easy as the tiles. The better randomizations really appeals to me, though.

[fast.git]

I have to admit that I am not a mathematician or statistician and do not even play one while gaming...

And despite this, you've provided a well-reasoned discussion of the potential strengths and flaws of a dice-rolling system... for which I thank you.

The "hidden" aspect of damage is one of the draws (no pun intended) of the card drawing system. Watching an opponent collect a stack of cards, all the while wondering if they're close to destruction or just holding a fistful of 'zeroes' results in many a tense moment. A single roll mechanic would still allow for this mystery... and, in fact, I believe someone (can't remember who) figured the probability of each card and turned it into a d100 chart.

Might still be in the files?

[KevinsHope]

There is still only two in a hundred (Rounded up from 1.7%) chance of a boom "card" With those percentage dice. A 1 or a 2 is a very rare occurrence. When using tiles, which is what we have, it is easy for those boom tiles to get floated to the top of the pile over time. The other night, my friend drew TWO boom tiles for two different plains in one game! I told him he should play the lottery because the chances were so slim of doing that. Tonight, with the dice, a rolled a one and blew up my Messerschmidt, but only once in two games.

[KevinsHope]

Well...if you can't find theirs mine is attached above and is pretty darn accurate.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Well presented and as this is the 'house rule' section a worthy addition. Personally I wont resort to dice rolling and charts. Like others I like the game for its ease, simplicity and fun aspect. With the addition of collision decks and critical hit decks I think, again for me personally, all the squares are covered. Excellent work though and I hope it provides the level of realism you are trying to achieve.

Neil

[KevinsHope]

Hmmm....I don't really think dice would make it more realistic, but thanks for your feedback.

[Пилот]

One of the main reasons that I took to this game was its simple mechanics and the relief of not having to use dice and charts any more.
Rob.
If you make customized dice, there's no need for charts. But, unfriendly player could misuse dice result, as that result is to be kept secret. So, no way to find out do you really shoot blanks or something else is reason.

[Teaticket]

When using the tiles/cards, at least the special damage is used up, where it is always still possible with the dice. So a double deck with 2 BOOM and fire cards only has 2 each. Dice are unlimited!

[KevinsHope]

When using the tiles/cards, at least the special damage is used up, where it is always still possible with the dice. So a double deck with 2 BOOM and fire cards only has 2 each. Dice are unlimited!

Yeah. One issue we have noticed is that the boom chances are too high. We have a plane explode almost every game, which is just not accurate to using the tiles. So...I'm probably going to reduce the explode chance to a natural one instead of a one or a two. Other than that, we haven't noticed any real ratio issues yet.

[Marechallannes]

Interesting thread and a lot of work Kevin. :thumbsup:

You pointed out one of the main reasons why I would not try the dice system.

Everyone see the results. That has influence on planing, behaviour and motivation* of other players.

* Who rolls the dice? The one who shot or the one who receives the hit? Lucky day or not? I know this from my countless Axis & Allies games. Once in the Revised Edition, a British player killed an attacking Japanese Carrier and a Japanese Fighter in a Sea Battle in the Sea Zone of French Indochina with a single Transport.


The second most important point for me is what my wingman Andrzej wrote before:


...

The closed pool of damage results and the feeling that sooner or later planes will start falling down like leaves in autumn. The latter may be reduced by using multiple damage decks. I use at least two of each shuffled together...


The dices simply do not represent the character of a WGF damage card set or WGS damage token set.

[KevinsHope]

Interesting thread and a lot of work Kevin. :thumbsup:

You pointed out one of the main reasons why I would not try the dice system.

Everyone see the results. That has influence on planing, behaviour and motivation* of other players.

* Who rolls the dice? The one who shot or the one who receives the hit? Lucky day or not? I know this from my countless Axis & Allies games. Once in the Revised Edition, a British player killed an attacking Japanese Carrier and a Japanese Fighter in a Sea Battle in the Sea Zone of French Indochina with a single Transport.


The second most important point for me is what my wingman Andrzej wrote before:




The dices simply do not represent the character of a WGF damage card set or WGS damage token set.

I have to admit that I am disappointed with the reaction I got to this post here at this site. The more times I use this variant (And really, it is only a variant...not a permanent overall to the game mechanics), the more I enjoy it, although I do wish there was a way for damage to be kept secret. I feel like, if those of you who are skeptical could see this in action, or at least try it once, you would see its positives. Every friend I've introduced this to has enjoyed the switch to the dice system. In fact, every person that I've used the dice system with has stated that they prefer it. But, to be fair, we are all casual players of the game.

[Warhawk]

Maybe it could be kept secret if everyone had a cup to roll their dice in when they received damage. Then they could record the results on their own sheet of paper and only announce the corresponding special damages. It might take more time but the card system already assumes the person will be honest about their damage and thus changes very little in that regard.

[KevinsHope]

Yeah. There are a number of ways that we've considered doing "secret damage" and we will probably try a few of these ideas in the near future. Thanks for the reply, Wes.

[Warhawk]

I read through some more of the thread and realised you might have, ah well! I think it's a pretty neat way to incorporate dice and there was certainly a lot of effort put in on your part. Glad your friends enjoy the method.

[steel_ratt]

I had some problems with randomization of cards a while back. (I was replacing drawn cards and reshuffling after every burst of fire. Explosions were coming out of the deck left, right, and center. Seeing 4 planes explode in one mission was getting all too common.) As a result, I also tried a dice system much like the one you detail.

One additional factor has to be taken into account, though. Of the special damage, only jams occur on zero damage cards. If you want to remain true to this, you have to ignore non-jam special damage for zero damage rolls. (As an extension, it would be interesting to add some kind of special damage modifier to rolls based on the amount of damage done. More damage, more chance of special damage. ...but that's another topic entirely.)

[KevinsHope]

That must be a differnce between the WW1 and WW2 version. I'm pretty sure that jams occurred on 2s and 3s in the damage tokens, which we do take into account. Zeros, in the WW2 tiles, do not have special damage, nor do 1s. So, you only roll special damage in our version if you roll a 2 damage or higher. I will double check this, though. Good point. And, as for making higher probabilities of special damage for higher damages, that is a neat idea, but...really....I wasn't re-writing the game....just adapting it to a more portable medium.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I have often used triple A and B decks, my C and D decks are doubled permanently, the chit boxes I have for WGS have 4 sets of counters in them. I have never pulled 4 explosion cards/chits in one game. 2 on a few occasions and once, at a show, 3. That said if you want to reduce the number of explosions then take out an appropriate number of cards/chits. I do use extensively the critical damage cards when an explosion occurs and a collision deck when aircraft collide. Again these are in house rules and personal preference.

Don't let negative comments or criticism stop you from using whatever you feel enhances your aspect or take on the game. That is the beauty of the game and could be why it appeals to a wide, diverse audience. We all have our likes and dislikes, our personal choices and house rules don't let this stop you perfecting the game along your own ideas and as long as We stay within the basic rules and guidelines I see no problems with any system that enhances the game.

[Jager]

Kevin;
I think what you have here is a viable home-ruled method. There has been discussion in the past about dice driven combat results (and a file in the archives somewhere, IIRC). Indeed, there has been discussion on the merits between the cards and the chits ;).
While I like the simplicity of the card/chit driven damage system for WoG, and think it feels right with the game engine, my wargaming experience also likes the even probability distribution of the dice matrix CRTs. If your table likes it, by all means, then it works. And if I can come by and play at your home field, I'll roll dice.
Karl

[WWIflyingace]

I very much like you dice rolling system. Trying to shuffles the cards is a pain. Plus if you happen to only have one deck in play and the infamous explosion card gets drawn; everyone else in the room can sigh relief that they will not fall victim. If you roll dice anything can happen!

I've been working on a system where attacker and defender roll dice; similar to the X-wing game. Good luck!

[Setarius]

Thanks Kevin for the interesting read. As a former D&D player I would have no problem coming up with the number of dice needed to do this, I even have a d100, it looks and rolls like a golf ball. I do feel that this system will slow down gameplay and make things a little harder to get new people involved. I am currently playing with 2 guys and hoping to introduce it to a third guy. The two guys are slow enough on deciding what their movement is going to be that introducing a system like you propose will mean we only get 1 game in during our 3 hr session instead of the 2-3 we currently get.
Don't get discouraged because most of the comments are negative. I give you props for taking the time to work the numbers and come up with an alternative that you like.

[Tonx]

Having also experienced Bolt Action which uses loads of dice I prefer the WGF / WGS game play like it is ... HOWEVER that does not mean I am writing this idea off completely. Maybe it could be developed into a second rules and basics pack in the future giving a choice as to which version of Wings of Glory is played. Only problem I foresee with that is groups meeting up at conventions and there being a divide between who plays with dice and who has stuck to tradition.

Well done on all your hard work so far anyway :thumbsup: :thankyou:

[Gbear58]

Interesting idea, though I like the "chits" for two reasons. 1) it is hidden damage with the exception of smoke and fire. I like the hidden risk driver it imparts into the game and as stated the knowledge "you can't dodge them all".
2) the chit system allows a very fine balancing system that is completely transparent to the player, especially the novice or initiate. By altering the composition of the pools you can drive results based on historical scenarios or simple demo game success insurance. Good work I can see the merit of the idea.

[Doug]

I am an old wog gamer. Like every one else here I prefer the cards, but on the other hand I will give you credit for the dice system you delveloped. Well done mate :thumbsup:

[tsalyards]

Sorry to be late to the party, but don't get discouraged. I think this is a great idea and begs for further refinement.

I'm quite the fan of WoG's plan and maneuver mechanics but also find the damage card system to be slow, onerous, and unsatisfying. While I like the hidden damage mechanic in theory, I'm not sure the squeeze is worth the juice. WoG hardly strives for simulation level detail and would lend itself well to an X-wing style, dice and card driven damage system. I love the models and other aspects of WoG and it would be even better/simpler with a dice based approach.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Each to his own Tad. What attracted me was the getting away from dice and the simple mechanism of the game. you can get a game set up played and away in any spare hour, and no need for keeping records.
Rob.

[tsalyards]

It's totally personal preference and not something I am evangelical about. I still enjoy the game as it is but have wondered too long "what if?" :)

[Hedeby]

Did I put this in the wrong area or something? I'm curious as to why I am getting no comments.

If you are looking to expand on this idea any further - I wrote a role-playing version of WoW - posted it on the site about 18 months ago. Feel free to take a look (its in the campaigns bit from what I remember)