Heinkel 111 Ventral Guns -- How can they hit anything?

[Eris Lobo]

Today I finally got the Heinkel 111 model I've been wanting for awhile, and I'm really looking forward to playing it in my Battle of Britain games.

Something about it really confused me, though.

It has two ventral guns, one aiming forward, the other aimed toward the rear. The rules that came with the Heinkel say: "Ventral Machine Guns: The Heinkel He.111 H has two ventral machine guns, positioned close to the center of the plane, one that fires forward (6) and one backward (7). Both machine guns are manned by the same gunner (crewman V). These machine guns can fire only against targets at a lower altitude."

The target card and base for the Heinkel 111, however, indicate that the two ventral guns (6 & 7) only do damage if they are firing at close range. With that in mind, isn't it impossible for a target to be at close range if it's at a different altitude? If the target plane was below the Heinkel 111, it would be considered to be at long range if it was closer than the center of the range ruler, and there would be no way the target plane could be at close range to the Heinkel if it was below the Heinkel, so it seems to be impossible for the two ventral guns to ever be able to hit anything. And isn't it correct that a plane couldn't shoot at a plane that is passing directly underneath or overhead (i.e., the bases overlap)?

Am I missing something in the rules that explains what I'm so confused about? Does anybody know how the Heinkel 111's ventral guns can hit anything?

Thanks!

-- Eris

[Rabbit 3]

The way the rules work ventral guns are always firing at targets one level lower than the firing plane.
This means that they can only hit anything at 1/2 ruler range AND one level lower with the damage worked out as if the range is at long.
If you dont use the altitude rules then you are just supposed to ignore them.

[Diamondback]

Heinkel ventral-guns really are almost into the "male mammary gland" category--to quote an 1850's medical text I once read, "neither useful nor ornamental."

Which is about what they were on the real thing unless massed in large numbers...

[Eris Lobo]

The way the rules work ventral guns are always firing at targets one level lower than the firing plane.
This means that they can only hit anything at 1/2 ruler range AND one level lower with the damage worked out as if the range is at long.
If you dont use the altitude rules then you are just supposed to ignore them.

Is what you're saying in the rules book, or is it just your house rules?

Do the official rules say that a plane can shoot in some circumstances at a lower altitude target and the shot be considered short range?

It would also make a lot of sense if the two ventral guns could shoot DOWN at a plane they're overlapping -- but to my understanding, the rules say that you can never fire at a target when its card overlaps yours (even if the planes at different altitudes and don't cause a collision) . Or are there exceptions to this rule, too?

-- Eris

[Naharaht]

If the Heinkel has some climb counters, it should be allowed to shoot at a plane with proportionately less counters at the same altitude at short range.
Also the Shrage Musik rules could be applied downwards.

[Eris Lobo]

Heya folks! Been away awhile dealing with non-gaming stuff, but with cold weather keeping us indoors more often, our table's again covered with games more often than not after dinner. *grins*

I'm resurrecting this thread because I just got another Heinkel 111 model which I'm wanting to use soon, and I never felt my question were really answered by anybody -- which I find quite surprising, as my dilemma seems to be the result of a direct contradiction of the official rules with itself.

In summary:
* Two of the Heinkel 111's guns are ventral, and the official rules that came with it state the guns can only fire at targets below it.
* Those two guns only do damage at short range, according to the official card that came with the Heinkel 111. Long range attacks do no damage whatsoever.
* If a weapon is fired at a target at a level below an aircraft, then short ranges are treated as long ranges for damage determination, according to the official WGS rules.
* Therefore, it seems that, according to the rules, the Heinkel 111's ventral guns can never do damage to anybody, because they can only hit something at short range and below it, and when a target is in that position, the damage is treated as if the gun shot at long range, and the ventral guns cause no damage at long range.

So ... what am I missing? Did I miss something in the rules somewhere?

Oh, and I did look at the Schrage Musik rules, and it seems they could possibly be related in this instance, but only to a degree, and don't seem to me to clarify what I see as a rules paradox.

Thanks everybody!

-- Eris

[Diamondback]

Eris, I think the point is this: "They're almost as useless in game as in reality." :)

[CappyTom]

Is what you're saying in the rules book, or is it just your house rules?

Do the official rules say that a plane can shoot in some circumstances at a lower altitude target and the shot be considered short range?

It would also make a lot of sense if the two ventral guns could shoot DOWN at a plane they're overlapping -- but to my understanding, the rules say that you can never fire at a target when its card overlaps yours (even if the planes at different altitudes and don't cause a collision) . Or are there exceptions to this rule, too?

-- Eris

I will be using a house rule that two engine plus bombers gun crew, only the gun crews not fixed guns, can shot at planes overlapping and in the right altitude. That means if its the top gun is shooting, the bomber having no climb tokens and the attacking plane has some if same altitude or one level above. As for the Heinkel it will be able to shot at the short distance and one level below. Just making the game fun.

[Rabbit 3]

The thinking seems to be that yellow arc guns can only shoot at targets which are -1 in altitude level below and within 1/2 ruler distance horizontally of the firing plane.
Its actually fairly easy for this to occur without bases overlapping.
According to the main rulebook you just don`t use them without the altitude rules.
If you want to allow the lower gun to additionally be able to fire at an attacking plane at -1 when the bases overlap as a house rule it seems reasonable provided the target is still in-arc.

[flash]

....So ... what am I missing? Did I miss something in the rules somewhere?

I look at it this way Eris:
If a ventral gun can only fire at targets below it - it can only shoot half range because the targets must be an altitude lower.
Long range attacks do no damage whatsoever because targets must be an altitude lower and, as you already know, that can't happen; they must be within half a ruler to take any damage !

Happy gunning ! :)

[Eris Lobo]

I look at it this way Eris:
If a ventral gun can only fire at targets below it - it can only shoot half range because the targets must be an altitude lower. Long range attacks do no damage whatsoever because targets must be an altitude lower and, as you already know, that can't happen; they must be within half a ruler to take any damage !

*reads flash's post, cocks her head in puzzlement, then blinks in amazement as she reads it again*

Oh my God, flash! You're saying that the fact that the ventral guns can only fire at close-range targets of a lower altitude is actually hardwired into the damage values on the Heinkel's game card?

That's so crazy it's GENIUS! It makes perfect sense to me!

Now if our friendly game designer could verify your insight, everything would be flawless ...

Oh, heck, even if he doesn't, I'm still going with your logic. ;)

Bravo!

-- Eris

[Honza]

Here is my alternative take on He-111 guns and fire arcs.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1060098/make-your-own-customizable-bomber-base

[flash]

*reads flash's post, cocks her head in puzzlement, then blinks in amazement as she reads it again*

Oh my God, flash! You're saying that the fact that the ventral guns can only fire at close-range targets of a lower altitude is actually hardwired into the damage values on the Heinkel's game card?

That's so crazy it's GENIUS! It makes perfect sense to me!

Now if our friendly game designer could verify your insight, everything would be flawless ...

Oh, heck, even if he doesn't, I'm still going with your logic. ;)

Bravo!

-- Eris

That's pretty much it Eris, I can't see it any other way. PM Andrea for a clarification though, he may have a different explanation entirely !:lol:

[Naharaht]

There are some good pictures of the Heinkel 111 gun positions on this website http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/76246-he-111/

A couple of them suggest that guns in the ventral gondola could be fired at angles close to the horizontal.

[tikkifriend]

I look at it this way Eris:
If a ventral gun can only fire at targets below it - it can only shoot half range because the targets must be an altitude lower.
Long range attacks do no damage whatsoever because targets must be an altitude lower and, as you already know, that can't happen; they must be within half a ruler to take any damage !

Happy gunning ! :)

He speaketh the truth Eris. :)

[Honza]

The rear ventral gun could shoot even a bit up when mounted in the ball mount. I have sen it on youtube.