Fire in the Skies Rules Discussion

[flash]

Can you chaps discuss & thrash out the rules in this thread - once your decisions have been made I will post them up in a sticky for you like I did for OTT so they are easily available. Things to think about:
Rules like morale, parachutes, wounds, rudder jams, explosions et al; Ace skills; Resolution of crashes/wounds; What happens when you land up in the drink; Decorations, scenario writing order.... all that sort of stuff !

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Copied from Mission Discussions and re-posted here.

1. Just to add France surrendered on June 22nd 1940, the Med/Mid East kicked off proper on 10 Jun 1940 when Italy entered the war on Germany's side. So, not detracting from the Poland/Fall of France campaigns which were very one sided, I propose to kick start the WTO in Sept 1940 with BoB plus, a little later than it did, the Med/Mid East.
2. Players will have a complete squadron, which may fictional or historic. Squadron's may be dispatched to different theaters as and when each player wishes. It may be possible for allied squadrons to switch from WTO to the ETO.
3. As in the case of the Midway Rising Campaign I would like to include Joaquim's campaign rules:

1. The Campaign
The Campaign simulates, throughout the length of # scenarios, the WTO 1940-194#.
This Campaign has only one or two simple campaign rules. The rest is scenario driven.
The Campaign management comprehends only two aspects: Squadron maintenance and pilot evolution.

1.1. Allied vs. Axis
Each player chooses if he wants to belong to the Allies or to the Axis.
Players choose 12 pilots that will pilot whatever models the players have available:
1 Ace with one Ace ability and the Evasion Ability;
3 Veteran pilots with the Evasion Ability;
6 Standard pilots and;
2 Rookies that have the "take two damage counters and choose the smaller Rookie Ability". Rookies stop being rookies after 2 combat missions where they successfully fire against the enemy or shoot down a plane.

1.2. Pilot Evolution
Pilots that survive battles and take down enemy planes evolve during the campaign.
A pilot gains abilities and looses the rookie ability by flying missions and taking down planes.
Each successful mission flown gives the pilot 1 Experience Point (XP). Successful missions are those where the pilot is not shot down and fires with success against at least one enemy plane.
Each plane shot down gives the pilot 2 Experience Point.

The first plane shot or the second successful mission erases the Rookie ability.
Three successful missions and a pilot becomes veteran with the Evasion ability.
Per 3 XP's a pilot can choose an ace ability.
When a pilot gains 5 kills he can chose an ace ability.

1.3. Squadron Management
This is pretty straightforward. Here we manage what happens to wounded pilots, shot down planes and replacements.

Wounded Pilots (roll 1D6):
1-3 - Out of Action;
4-6 - Just a bruise. Some iodine and I'm ready for action.

Modifiers:
Ace +2;
Veteran +1,
Rookie -1;
Bailed out/crash-landed -1

Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-3 - KIA;
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed.

Modifiers:
Ace +2;
Veteran +1,
Rookie -1;
Explosion -1

Pilot Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-2 - Rookie
3-5 - Regular
6 - Roll again: 1-5 - Veteran, 6 - Ace with 1 ace ability

Replacement pilot and plane will arrive (1D6):
1-3 - In time for the next battle;
4-5 - After the end of the next battle;
6 - Not in time to take part of the action (scratch one plane from your squadron)

2. Scenarios
The Scenarios will be written down as the Campaign evolves. We only need the first to start.
The scenarios may be played differently if you are Allied or Axis. In the scenarios the different rules will be specified.

[Blackronin]

Ace Abilities for Solo Missions

Acrobatic Pilot
(Players and AI's)
This pilot may perform a non-straight manoeuvre after a reverse manoeuvre. When you use this ability, take five Recovery counters.


Daredevil
(Players only)
This pilot may perform two steep manoeuvres in succession. Take four Recovery counters when you execute the second steep manoeuvre.


Exceptional Pilot
(Players only)
This pilot can use the Reverse Manoeuvre card twice in a row. Use the Exceptional Pilot counter to remember that you will make another Reverse Manoeuvre card. If two Reverse Manoeuvre cards are performed in succession, take four Recovery counters after the second manoeuvre.


Evasion
(Players and AI's)
This pilot may choose to ignore a single damage token during the game, after drawing and seeing it. The ignored token is shuffled back into its group. To remember that this skill has been used, turn its token face-down.


Good at Escaping
(Players and AI's)
This skill is useful only when the Tailing optional rule is in use. This pilot’s plane may not be tailed unless the tailing plane’s pilot also is an ace with the Good at Escaping skill.


Super Ace
(Players and AI's)
The player discards two counters from each of the pilot’s skills after each manoeuvre, rather than just one.


Perfect Aim
(Players and AI's)
When firing, this crewman may choose to have his opponent take an additional “A” token of damage, even if he did not shoot at the same plane
in the previous firing phase. You must decide to use this ability before your opponent draws damage counters. This ability has no effect if you are using the Aim optional rule and the ace did shoot the same plane in the previous phase. When you use this ability, take three Recovery counters.


Sniper
(Players and AI's)
When this ace fires at an enemy plane, he tends to hit a bull’s-eye. When he fires, he may partially choose one of the damage tokens that his opponent has to draw. Instead of his opponent drawing the selected token, the player controlling the sniper draws two of the tokens with the selected letter, looks at them, gives the one of his choice to his opponent, and places the other back among the others, reshuffling them.
If the opponent had to draw multiple damage tokens, he draws the other tokens normally. When you use this ability, take four Recovery counters.


Itchy Trigger Finger
(Players and AI's)
Aces with this ability may resolve their firing before other crewmen. If they do, all the damage that they cause is resolved before the simultaneous fire of crewmen who do not have the Itchy Trigger Finger skill. If the target plane is shot down, it does not get to fire (unless it is manned by another ace with Itchy Trigger Finger). When you use this ability, take four Recovery counters. Aces with this ability may choose to fire normally (to avoid taking Recovery
counters) and may fire normally when their Itchy Trigger Finger skill has Recovery counters on it.


Always coming Home
Pilot's Only
When crashes, the Pilot will always find a way to return home to the aerodrome. He has a +3 bonus when rolling for bailing out and escaping.


Lucky Git
(Players and AI's)
The first damage chit from the current turn that the player or AI draws is taken following these rules: take two damage chits of the appropriate colour. If the chits don't have special damage, use the one with smaller damage on in. If any of the chits have special damage, use that chit. If both chits have special damage, return both chits to the chit cup - no damage is dealt.


Hard as Nails
(Players and AI's)
The first pilot wounded chit doesn't have any effect. Flesh wound! The second is treated as the first normal wound and the third will incapacitate/kill the pilot as per rules.


Rookie Ability
(Players and AI's)
When being shot by a rookie, the player takes two damage counters per damage counter he receives and choose the smaller one. Rookies stop being rookies and become standard pilots after 2 combat missions where they successfully fire against the enemy or when they shoot down a plane.

[calm]

Good to have all the rules in one place :thumbsup:

[Flying Officer Kyte]

For Malta I am going to have difficulty with the rules.
For a good period of time, my resources are made up of bits of squadrons and all and sundry.
Ie, Starting with four Gladiators. Soon to be joined by two Hurricanes. A half Squadron in all.
A half Squadron of Swordfish, and in effect a half Squadron comprising Wellingtons, Blenheims, and a Maryland.
Plus a Sunderland for air sea rescue. Later in the campaign, more Hurricanes and Beaufighters joined the fray.
With such a small force to defend the island, what do you suggest I do.
Rob.

[flash]

Pray ?!
Treat them all as your 'Malta Squadron' - name your 12 pilots, start with 4 and feed the others in as you bring the planes in or is that not the issue?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Rob make complete squadrons for all your aircraft types and play them as see fits. Carlos has 12 HE 111 crews but only 4 models. Wait until you see my Japanese Naval Squadron, or should I say complete carrier wing for PTO.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

No that would be fine if you don't mind. It would be truer to the actual circumstances of the siege.
Rob.

[Blackronin]

You can start with fewer planes and pilots, Rob.
And then you can add on as time passes.
You can build a reinforcement table and twist slightly reality with your table without leaving the fields of verisimilitude.
Each time you loose a bird you can roll on a table:

Reinforcements
0-3 - No luck!
4-5 - Your mechanics are able to resuscitate one bird from near dead. You have a Gladiator/Hurricane returned to active duty
6 - You receive 1D3 new planes flown from a Carrier. 1-2 - Gladiators; 3-4 - Hurricanes, 5-6 - Swordfishes.

Or something like this.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

That would be great Joaquim.
It would fit in with my plans for keeping the action within the historical framework, without straight jacketing my story line and AAR.
I will publish my full list of pilots, most of whom, excepting the Bulldogs, are drawn from real pilots who were there or there abouts during the time period, with just slight name changes so as not to upset any living relatives who may peruse this site.
Rob.

[Blackronin]

Give me your flight complement and I'll make you a better detailed table.
I also think that your pilot reinforcements should be more docile. RAF sent good and trained pilots to Malta since the conditions were so severe.

Malta Pilot Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1 - Rookie
2-4 - Regular
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-5 - Veteran, 6 - Ace with 1 ace ability

[Marechallannes]

...

1.2. Pilot Evolution
Pilots that survive battles and take down enemy planes evolve during the campaign.
A pilot gains abilities and looses the rookie ability by flying missions and taking down planes.
Each successful mission flown gives the pilot 1 Experience Point (XP). Successful missions are those where the pilot is not shot down and fires with success against at least one enemy plane.
Each plane shot down gives the pilot 2 Experience Point.

The first plane shot or the second successful mission erases the Rookie ability.
Three successful missions and a pilot becomes veteran with the Evasion ability.
Per 3 XP's a pilot can choose an ace ability.
When a pilot gains 5 kills he can chose an ace ability.

...


We need to improve in this section or we have a bunch of aces after a few missions.

Maybe:


The first plane shot or the second successful mission erases the Rookie ability.
After three successfull missions or six experience points, the pilot becomes a veteran with the Evasion ability.
When a pilot gains 5 kills he can choose an ace ability.
This goes on per the next five kills, etc...


To be honest, the Evasion is a hidden ace ability.

So experience points will only help Rookies and Standart pilots to become Standart pilots or Veterans. (Maybe we can use them for a kind of ranking or medals, too)

The following kills will develeop the pilot's ace abilities.


Why did I write this? Because If you win a mission with four standart pilots and each pilot shot down an enemy plane, all of them will become an ace ability. (1 exp point for the successful mission + 2 exp points for a shot down plane).

This will soften the instrument and achievement of ace abilities and the status of an ace in your squadron.

My opinion.

[Blackronin]

We need to improve in this section or we have a bunch of aces after a few missions.

Maybe:


The first plane shot or the second successful mission erases the Rookie ability.
After three successfull missions or six experience points, the pilot becomes a veteran with the Evasion ability.
When a pilot gains 5 kills he can choose an ace ability.
This goes on per the next five kills, etc...


To be honest, the Evasion is a hidden ace ability.

So experience points will only help Rookies and Standart pilots to become Standart pilots or Veterans.

The following kills will develeop the pilot's ability.


Why did I write this? Because If you win a mission with four Standart pilots and each pilot shot down an enemy plane, all of them will become an ace ability. (1 exp point for the successful mission + 2 exp points for a shot down plane).

This will soften the instrument and achievement of ace abilities and the status of an ace in your squadron.

My opinion.

I agree with you.
We shouldn't cheapen the Ace Status.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

1. Start up squadron crew skills remain as they are ie ACE Evasion + 1 Skill, Vet Evasion, Rookie = Rookie.
2. Rookies progress to standard after 3 successful missions or engage the enemy twice or shoot down 1 enemy aircraft (whichever comes first).
3. Standard Pilots progress to Veteran after 5 successful missions (gain evasion)
4. To be an ACE and have a free choice of ACE skill its the same as OTT every 5 kills.
5. Replacement pilots/crew using the following start with the skills indicated:

Pilot Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + evasion, 6 - Ace with 1 ace ability + evasion

Crew Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + perfect aim, 6 - Ace with ace ability sniper + hard as nails

[calm]

I think there should be something like evasion for the gunners. Or does the crew experience sums to the pilots evasion ? (was I clear ?).

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I was working on the principle that it was a purely pilot skill. I might be wrong.


I think there should be something like evasion for the gunners. Or does the crew experience sums to the pilots evasion ? (was I clear ?).

[calm]

I agree with you, it is just that, taking into account the number of gunners I have, well, I would like to have something for them, too :D

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Targets?:guns::crash:

Neil


I agree with you, it is just that, taking into account the number of gunners I have, well, I would like to have something for them, too :D

[Blackronin]

Yes. I see that. But it must be a different skill.

Hard skin? - Ignores first wound?
Focused? - Second shot to the same target adds 1 A damage?

[calm]

Yes. I see that. But it must be a different skill.

Hard skin? - Ignores first wound?
Focused? - Second shot to the same target adds 1 A damage?

Great ideas, but I already use the second and beyond shot at the same target adding an A damage :D

Hard skin is a good one, though

[Blackronin]

I don't use that rule for gunners, only if they have the Focused special ability.

[calm]

I don't use that rule for gunners, only if they have the Focused special ability.

I always use it, and was planning to use in the campaign. Is there a rule against it ?

[Blackronin]

I always use it, and was planning to use in the campaign. Is there a rule against it ?

It's your game, Carlos. If you want to use it, go ahead. I just think that it gives an unrealistic advantage to gunners. Only veteran gunner should have this advantage. But that's the way I'll play it. You may play it in a different way.

[calm]

It's your game, Carlos. If you want to use it, go ahead. I just think that it gives an unrealistic advantage to gunners. Only veteran gunner should have this advantage. But that's the way I'll play it. You may play it in a different way.

Limiting this advantage to Veteran gunners seems fair enough to me. Probably I will play that way.

[calm]

1. Start up squadron crew skills remain as they are ie ACE Evasion + 1 Skill, Vet Evasion, Rookie = Rookie.
2. Rookies progress to standard after 3 successful missions or engage the enemy twice or shoot down 1 enemy aircraft (whichever comes first).
3. Standard Pilots progress to Veteran after 5 successful missions (gain evasion)
4. To be an ACE and have a free choice of ACE skill its the same as OTT every 5 kills.
5. Replacement pilots/crew using the following start with the skills indicated:

Pilot Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + evasion, 6 - Ace with 1 ace ability + evasion

Crew Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + perfect aim, 6 - Ace with ace ability sniper + hard as nails

As I was talking with Joaquim, number 3 above can be aplied to gunners, too, so normal gunners could became veterans after 5 sucessful missions, is that correct ?

If so, could you change the text to reflect this situation ?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

How's this?

1. Start up squadron crew skills remain as they are ie ACE Evasion + 1 Skill, Vet Evasion, Rookie = Rookie.
2. Rookies progress to standard after 3 successful missions or engage the enemy twice or shoot down 1 enemy aircraft (whichever comes first).
3. Standard Pilots/Crew progress to Veteran after 5 successful missions (gain evasion/hard as nails respectively)
4. To be an ACE and have a free choice of ACE skill its the same as OTT every 5 kills.
5. Replacement pilots/crew using the following start with the skills indicated:

Pilot Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + evasion, 6 - Ace with 1 ace ability + evasion

Crew Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + perfect aim, 6 - Ace with ace ability sniper + hard as nails

[calm]

Neil, it is perfect ! :salute: At least to me :thumbsup:

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

So far we have the following rules being put forward.

1. The Campaign
The Campaign simulates, throughout the length of # scenarios, the WTO 1940-194#.
This Campaign has only one or two simple campaign rules. The rest is scenario driven.
The Campaign management comprehends only two aspects: Squadron maintenance and pilot evolution.

1.1. Allied vs. Axis
Each player chooses if he wants to belong to the Allies or to the Axis.
Players choose 12 pilots that will pilot whatever models the players have available:
1 Ace with one Ace ability and the Evasion Ability;
3 Veteran pilots with the Evasion Ability;
6 Standard pilots and;
2 Rookies that have the "take two damage counters and choose the smaller Rookie Ability". Rookies stop being rookies after 2 combat missions where they successfully fire against the enemy or shoot down a plane.

1.2. Pilot Evolution
Pilots that survive battles and take down enemy planes evolve during the campaign.
A pilot gains abilities and looses the rookie ability by flying missions and taking down planes.
Each successful mission flown gives the pilot 1 Experience Point (XP). Successful missions are those where the pilot is not shot down and fires with success against at least one enemy plane.
Each plane shot down gives the pilot 2 Experience Point.


1.3. Squadron Management
This is pretty straightforward. Here we manage what happens to wounded pilots, shot down planes and replacements.

1.3.1. Start up squadron crew skills remain as they are ie ACE Evasion + 1 Skill, Vet Evasion, Rookie = Rookie.
1.3.2. Rookies progress to standard after gaining 5 XP's from successful missions.
1.3.3. Standard Pilots/Crew progress to Veteran after gaining 10 XP's from successful missions. Bonus gains evasion/hard as nails respectively.
1.3.4. To qualify to be an ACE and have a free choice of ACE skill its the same as OTT every 5 kills.
5. Replacement pilots/crew using the following start with the skills indicated:

1.4. Pilot Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + evasion, 6 - Ace with 1 ace ability + evasion

1.5. Crew Replacement Table (roll 1D6)
1-3 Rookie with Rookie ability
4 Standard
5 - Veteran
6 - Roll again: 1-2 Standard, 3-5 Veteran + perfect aim, 6 - Ace with ace ability sniper + hard as nails

1.6. Wounded Pilots (roll 1D6):
1-3 - Out of Action;
4-6 - Just a bruise. Some iodine and I'm ready for action.

Modifiers:
Ace +2;
Veteran +1,
Rookie -1;
Bailed out/crash-landed -1

1.7. Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-3 - KIA;
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed.

Modifiers:
Ace +2;
Veteran +1,
Rookie -1;
Explosion -1

1.8. Replacement pilot and plane will arrive (1D6):
1-3 - In time for the next battle;
4-5 - After the end of the next battle;
6 - Not in time to take part of the action (scratch one plane from your squadron)

2. Scenarios
The Scenarios will be written down as the Campaign evolves. We only need the first to start.
The scenarios may be played differently if you are Allied or Axis. In the scenarios the different rules will be specified.

3. Ace Abilities for Solo Missions

Acrobatic Pilot
(Players and AI's)
This pilot may perform a non-straight manoeuvre after a reverse manoeuvre. When you use this ability, take five Recovery counters.


Daredevil
(Players only)
This pilot may perform two steep manoeuvres in succession. Take four Recovery counters when you execute the second steep manoeuvre.


Exceptional Pilot
(Players only)
This pilot can use the Reverse Manoeuvre card twice in a row. Use the Exceptional Pilot counter to remember that you will make another Reverse Manoeuvre card. If two Reverse Manoeuvre cards are performed in succession, take four Recovery counters after the second manoeuvre.


Evasion
(Players and AI's)
This pilot may choose to ignore a single damage token during the game, after drawing and seeing it. The ignored token is shuffled back into its group. To remember that this skill has been used, turn its token face-down.


Good at Escaping
(Players and AI's)
This skill is useful only when the Tailing optional rule is in use. This pilot’s plane may not be tailed unless the tailing plane’s pilot also is an ace with the Good at Escaping skill.


Super Ace
(Players and AI's)
The player discards two counters from each of the pilot’s skills after each manoeuvre, rather than just one.


Perfect Aim
(Players and AI's)
When firing, this crewman may choose to have his opponent take an additional “A” token of damage, even if he did not shoot at the same plane
in the previous firing phase. You must decide to use this ability before your opponent draws damage counters. This ability has no effect if you are using the Aim optional rule and the ace did shoot the same plane in the previous phase. When you use this ability, take three Recovery counters.


Sniper
(Players and AI's)
When this ace fires at an enemy plane, he tends to hit a bull’s-eye. When he fires, he may partially choose one of the damage tokens that his opponent has to draw. Instead of his opponent drawing the selected token, the player controlling the sniper draws two of the tokens with the selected letter, looks at them, gives the one of his choice to his opponent, and places the other back among the others, reshuffling them.
If the opponent had to draw multiple damage tokens, he draws the other tokens normally. When you use this ability, take four Recovery counters.


Itchy Trigger Finger
(Players and AI's)
Aces with this ability may resolve their firing before other crewmen. If they do, all the damage that they cause is resolved before the simultaneous fire of crewmen who do not have the Itchy Trigger Finger skill. If the target plane is shot down, it does not get to fire (unless it is manned by another ace with Itchy Trigger Finger). When you use this ability, take four Recovery counters. Aces with this ability may choose to fire normally (to avoid taking Recovery
counters) and may fire normally when their Itchy Trigger Finger skill has Recovery counters on it.


Always coming Home
Pilot's Only
When crashes, the Pilot will always find a way to return home to the aerodrome. He has a +3 bonus when rolling for bailing out and escaping.


Lucky Git
(Players and AI's)
The first damage chit from the current turn that the player or AI draws is taken following these rules: take two damage chits of the appropriate colour. If the chits don't have special damage, use the one with smaller damage on in. If any of the chits have special damage, use that chit. If both chits have special damage, return both chits to the chit cup - no damage is dealt.


Hard as Nails
(Players and AI's)
The first pilot wounded chit doesn't have any effect. Flesh wound! The second is treated as the first normal wound and the third will incapacitate/kill the pilot as per rules.


Rookie Ability
(Players and AI's)
When being shot by a rookie, the player takes two damage counters per damage counter he receives and choose the smaller one. Rookies stop being rookies and become standard pilots after 2 combat missions where they successfully fire against the enemy or when they shoot down a plane.

[calm]

Sounds really good. And it is very nice to have all the rules in one place :thumbsup:

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Stating the obvious to gain standard, veteran or even ace status increases your level of survival if shot down etc. This is why experience points (XP) are included.

[flash]

Shaping up nicely chaps - Will there be mechanic for not getting home ? As you know the channel is filled with aircraft that didn't get home. Many were damaged over one side or other of it but just never made it back across it. Perhaps if an aircraft has engine/smoke/fire damage ongoing when it breaks off there should be something to determine if the kite gets back across the ditch ! 1 on a D6 or something. The pilot causing the fire/smoke etc may claim a probable ?
Just a thought ;)

[Marechallannes]

Bob is special terrain.

If a German pilot / crew is lost over England - party is over.

The Channel can be no-man's-land, etc...

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Looking at some of the tallies, probables certainly played their part. Could also include chance of being picked up. RAF by rescue launch and Axis by E boat or similar.

Neil


Shaping up nicely chaps - Will there be mechanic for not getting home ? As you know the channel is filled with aircraft that didn't get home. Many were damaged over one side or other of it but just never made it back across it. Perhaps if an aircraft has engine/smoke/fire damage ongoing when it breaks off there should be something to determine if the kite gets back across the ditch ! 1 on a D6 or something. The pilot causing the fire/smoke etc may claim a probable ?
Just a thought ;)

[Marechallannes]

I knew Carlos would ask for crews. ;)

What about a difference between a crew of single engine bombers / multi engine fighters and multi engine bombers.

It's hard for a He.111 or B-25 pilot to get 5 kills.

Would it be ok to count the kills of multi engine bombers together and to credit the pilot with the achievements?

The difference pilot/gunner should be easier for Stuka's, Beaufighters, SBDs and Bf.110s.

Just a proposal.

[calm]

I knew Carlos would ask for crews. ;)


Why would you think I would ask in the behalf of my beloved crews ? :embarrass:

[Marechallannes]

Shared kills

Axis pilots do not share kills.

German Campaign players have to decide which pilot gunner scored the aerial victory.


Shared kills for Allies should be possible. Personally, I prefer max. a 50:50 split up.

[Marechallannes]

...

1.3. Squadron Management
This is pretty straightforward. Here we manage what happens to wounded pilots, shot down planes and replacements.

1.3.1. Start up squadron crew skills remain as they are ie ACE Evasion + 1 Skill, Vet Evasion, Rookie = Rookie.
1.3.2. Rookies progress to standard after gaining 5 XP's from successful missions.
1.3.3. Standard Pilots/Crew progress to Veteran after gaining 10 XP's from successful missions. Bonus gains evasion/hard as nails respectively.
1.3.4. To qualify to be an ACE and have a free choice of ACE skill its the same as OTT every 5 kills.
5. Replacement pilots/crew using the following start with the skills indicated:
...

I'll transfer those rules to my Pacific squadron for equal starting conditions. :salute:

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Perhaps for a multi-engined-multi crew aircraft where the pilot has no 'guns' to fire then any ace skill gained by the aircraft could be transferred to him as one of the flying ace skills. Just a way of balancing it out, or kills per aircraft totaled and the controlling player decides which skill is gained and b whom, rather than 1 person. I can see it nearly impossible for an HE111 gunner to score 5 kills. So perhaps the crew should add all kills and decide on who gets the skill choice, specific gunner or pilot.

[calm]

The experience points will eventually carry the pilots to veteran level. I find this very aceptable.

I prefer my gunners as aces than the pilot, as long as they (the pilots) are not rookies.

[7eat51]

Hi Folks,

Sorry I am late to this party; the last few weeks have been very busy with work as the semester started. I'm just getting back to the 'Drome.

Please let me know what is needed in terms of rosters for the various theaters, that is if a sit at the table is still open. If it is closed, I understand.

Thanks,
EAT

[Blackronin]

There's always a seat for you. Eric!
Join us.
What will you play? BoB? Malta? PTO?

[calm]

Welcome Eric ! Just suit yourself in terms of theater of operations :salute:

[7eat51]

There's always a seat for you. Eric!
Join us.
What will you play? BoB? Malta? PTO?


Welcome Eric ! Just suit yourself in terms of theater of operations :salute:

Thank you, my Friends.

Where are there a needs for pilots? Currently, I have all of the WoW and WoG WWII planes other than the 109s, of which I only have one. I have all the WWII card sets as well. I am open to purchasing Shapeways, AIM, etc., as need arises.

[calm]

Thank you, my Friends.

Where are there a needs for pilots? Currently, I have all of the WoW and WoG WWII planes other than the 109s, of which I only have one. I have all the WWII card sets as well. I am open to purchasing Shapeways, AIM, etc., as need arises.

I will be placing an order with AIM for some more Spits, Hurries, 109s, 110s, Stukas and He-111s, shortly, for sure, and maybe some Ju-88s, too.

For BoB you are a little short on 109s, but you can have a bombers only squadron, like myself.

[7eat51]

I will be placing an order with AIM for some more Spits, Hurries, 109s, 110s, Stukas and He-111s, shortly, for sure, and maybe some Ju-88s, too.

For BoB you are a little short on 109s, but you can have a bombers only squadron, like myself.

That sounds good. I will do an order as well once I know my collection gaps. I am just catching up on threads/posts, so hopefully I will have a better idea of what is needed by the end of the week.

When is this adventure kicking off?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Doesn't really matter Eric. No teams or such. Pick a theater, pick a side or both and join in.

Neil


Hi Folks,

Sorry I am late to this party; the last few weeks have been very busy with work as the semester started. I'm just getting back to the 'Drome.

Please let me know what is needed in terms of rosters for the various theaters, that is if a sit at the table is still open. If it is closed, I understand.

Thanks,
EAT

[flash]

Looking at some of the tallies, probables certainly played their part. Could also include chance of being picked up. RAF by rescue launch and Axis by E boat or similar. Neil

And back to discussing the rules :hmm:

Good idea Neil - As they crash they must roll on the crash chart - do you want to tweak that somehow to add the rescue detail or is this too much ? Maybe a separate Ditching table for them ? 1-3 KIA 4-6 Rescued ? On a 4 WIA.
I notice on the crash table there is only KIA / Bail or Crash land. You might want to consider a wound result from the bail/crash land otherwise you are killed or get away without a scratch ?
I'm going to post a rules sticky just to move things along - it will be locked - any changes can be made in due course but any discussion will be here, just let me know.
Cheers Dave :pint:

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Don't forget Flying boat pick ups as well chaps.
Happened a lot around a certain island, which I'm sure you are all getting sick to death with me going on about, so I'll shut up now.
Rob.

[flash]

Some more random thoughts:

Wounded pilots table - why would being an ace, or whatever skill level a pilot is, make a difference to them being wounded ? Bail/Crash landed as a negative makes sense though.
As a result of a roll of 1-3 is 'Out of Action' permanent ? or would you say out of action 1-3 missions to match the roll made ? ie Roll 1 miss 1.?

Shot down table - being wounded would be a negative factor to add to the list.

[flash]

Don't forget Flying boat pick ups as well chaps.
Happened a lot around a certain island, which I'm sure you are all getting sick to death with me going on about, so I'll shut up now. Rob.

That's why I generalised it as 'Rescue' detail Rob - method is only important in scenarios - I'm sure somebody will write one ! :slysmile:
I am the Walrus ....!

[Blackronin]

I propose this Ace Ability - Point blank Fire.
It seems plausible and a good addition. Carl is the author:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?14845-New-WGS-Ace-Skill-Point-Blank-Fire

Ace Skill - Point Blank Fire

If at the end of a manoeuvre, the base of the attacking ace’s airplane overlaps the base of a target airplane, the ace’s airplane can fire at the target airplane if a straight line can be traced between its centre peg within its firing arc to the centre base of the target airplane. If these conditions are met the attacking ace is considered firing at point blank range. The target airplane takes twice as many counters of each specific letter as indicated by the short range firepower value on the base of the attacking airplane. Note the bonus granted by this ability is not cumulative with the bonus granted by the Aim optional rule or Low Deflection house rule if those rules are in use. When you use this ability take four recovery counters.

When using altitude rules the attacking airplane and the target airplane must be at the same altitude level, and both aircraft must either have climb counters (any number) or no climb counters.

[Blackronin]

A6m2 Zeke / Ki-43 Oscar special rule.

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should have no restrictions on maneuvers to Veteran and Aces pilots. That means that they can do Immelmans without the straight before or after and can do two steep maneuvers in a row with no penalty.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes 2 yellow damage tokens instead of 1.

What do you think?

[fast.git]

A6m2 Zeke / Ki-43 Oscar special rule.

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should have no restrictions on maneuvers to Veteran and Aces pilots. That means that they can do Immelmans without the straight before or after and can do two steep maneuvers in a row with no penalty.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes 2 yellow damage tokens instead of 1.

What do you think?

I like the addition to the fire rules... it certainly increases the likelihood that your early model Zero is going to light up the night sky. But does the combination of double damage (2 chits) and fire started on smoke and engine critical damage punish them doubly? I'll give this a whirl, but don't want to cripple the A6M2.

As for the increased maneuverability... I don't have a Zero deck in front of me, but I thought there was talk about giving it 90 degree turns to right and left...? The ability to plan back-to-back steeps or ignore the standard immelmann requirements would make them damn hard to target, and would "nerf" the ace abilities which allow those maneuvers.

[fast.git]

I propose this Ace Ability - Point blank Fire.
It seems plausible and a good addition. Carl is the author:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?14845-New-WGS-Ace-Skill-Point-Blank-Fire

Very powerful... and not entirely solidified. There were several options mentioned, but not final decisions. Double chits seems too powerful, and the +1 chit & take the lowest as self-damage strikes me as not much of an advantage, depending upon draw. This also, in my opinion, takes away from the defensive pilot's ability to force an overshoot.

[Blackronin]

I like the addition to the fire rules... it certainly increases the likelihood that your early model Zero is going to light up the night sky. But does the combination of double damage (2 chits) and fire started on smoke and engine critical damage punish them doubly? I'll give this a whirl, but don't want to cripple the A6M2.

As for the increased maneuverability... I don't have a Zero deck in front of me, but I thought there was talk about giving it 90 degree turns to right and left...? The ability to plan back-to-back steeps or ignore the standard immelmann requirements would make them damn hard to target, and would "nerf" the ace abilities which allow those maneuvers.

90º degree turns can be the answer. And taking out the double chits will compensate for the maneuver downgrading. So, what if it was like this:

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should be able to do 90º turns at low speed. Mark the movement card in some way if you want to make a 90º low turn or make a new card.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes one yellow damage tokens.

What do you think?

[fast.git]

90º degree turns can be the answer. And taking out the double chits will compensate for the maneuver downgrading. So, what if it was like this:

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should be able to do 90º turns at low speed. Mark the movement card in some way if you want to make a 90º low turn or make a new card.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes one yellow damage tokens.

What do you think?

This could work for me. I want my Zeros on fire... but I don't want them crippled. ;)

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I agree the earlier models should be more susceptible to catching fire. They should climb faster than the later variants. What about giving them the evasion skill, ie the plane not the pilot? Can still be hit but they have the ability to 'dodge' the bullet but only the bullet, any special damage hits still count..so its only the numbered damage that is ignored. When played take 4-5 recovery counters before this can be used again. So it could be used 3-4 times during a game.

[fast.git]

I agree the earlier models should be more susceptible to catching fire. They should climb faster than the later variants. What about giving them the evasion skill, ie the plane not the pilot? Can still be hit but they have the ability to 'dodge' the bullet but only the bullet, any special damage hits still count..so its only the numbered damage that is ignored. When played take 4-5 recovery counters before this can be used again. So it could be used 3-4 times during a game.

That's an interesting idea, Neil. We wouldn't need to alter the Zero's deck... and they still would be a little more susceptible to special damage, if not "normal" damage.

[tikkifriend]

Shaping up nicely chaps - Will there be mechanic for not getting home ? As you know the channel is filled with aircraft that didn't get home. Many were damaged over one side or other of it but just never made it back across it. Perhaps if an aircraft has engine/smoke/fire damage ongoing when it breaks off there should be something to determine if the kite gets back across the ditch ! 1 on a D6 or something. The pilot causing the fire/smoke etc may claim a probable ?
Just a thought ;)

And a good one Dave . Also the chart
1.7. Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-3 - KIA;
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed

Its a bit severe when there is always a chance of wounds rather than death!! how about D12 1-3 Killed , 4-7 Bailed out /Crash landed 8-12 Wounded but survives.

[flash]

And a good one Dave . Also the chart
1.7. Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-3 - KIA;
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed

Its a bit severe when there is always a chance of wounds rather than death!! how about D12 1-3 Killed , 4-7 Bailed out /Crash landed 8-12 Wounded but survives.

The rules are nothing to do with me Paul !! Neil pulled them out of the Midway campaign so they are open for you chaps to tweak - I'm just making suggestions & playing the devils advocate but other than that will have nothing but a partial admin role in this campaign !
As you read on you will see I did note myself that on that chart you die or get away scot free & suggested WIA on a roll of 4 !

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Crash landing and Bailing out (modified from OTT campaign).

Roll 2D6 if crash landing or landing whilst wounded or aircraft 50%+ damage.

Crashing and wounded Effects Table:
2 or less - Dead!
3-4 - Severely Injured - Skip 1D6Scenarios
5-6 - Injured - Skip 1D3 Scenarios
7-8 - Bruised - Skip 1 Scenario
9+ - All well when you land well!

Modifiers to dice roll:
Ace: +2 ------------------------Your pilots skill helps his landing
Exploded: -3 --------------------Boom card drawn for any reason - overrides flamer/collision
Flamer: -2 ----------------------Downed by fire or downed whilst burning
Collision: -2 ---------------------Downed due to Collision
Shot Down -1 -------------------Just shot to bits!
Wounded: -1 per wound ---------Receive 2 wounds & you're shot down
Landed safely in Aerodrome: +3
Crash landed in enemy held or enemy territory or Sea -1

Escaping Enemy held or enemy Territory Table:
2 or less - Captured! The war ended for this pilot...
3-4 - Captured and escaped! - Skip 1D3Scenarios
5-6 - In hiding! - Skip 1D2 Scenarios
7-8 - Landed almost home! - Skip 1Scenario
9+ - They didn't even see me!

Modifiers to the dice roll:
Ace: +2
Exploded: -2
Flamer -1
Collision: -1
Wounded: -1 per wound
Enemy occupied territory: +1
Behind enemy lines -1
Healthy: +1
In Sea: -1

Bailing out:
Roll 2d6
2 or less - Dead!
3-4 - Severely Injured - Skip 1D6 Scenarios
5-6 - Injured - Skip 1D3 Scenarios
7-8 - Bruised - Skip 1 Scenario
9+ - All well when you land well!

Modifiers to dice roll:
Ace: +2 ------------------------Your adept in handling a parachute landing.
Veteran: +1--------------------You've done this before.
Rookie: -1----------------------"Where's the bloody toggle?"
Exploded: -3 --------------------Boom card drawn for any reason - overrides flamer/collision
Flamer: -2 ----------------------Downed by fire or downed whilst burning
Shot Down -1 -------------------Just shot to bits!
Wounded: -1 per wound ---------Receive 2 wounds & you're shot down
Peg Height 1 or less -1-----------Should have jumped earlier


Escaping Enemy held or enemy Territory Table:
2 or less - Captured! The war ended for this pilot...(If at Sea: "For you Tommie, zee var ist over!")
3-4 - Captured and escaped! - Skip 1D3 Scenarios (If at sea: "I've got more chance of being picked up by a U-Boat!)
5-6 - In hiding! - Skip 1D2 Scenarios (if at sea "miles off course, damn the weather and the sea")
7-8 - Landed almost home! - Skip 1 Scenario (if at sea picked up by rescue boat/plane after a slight delay).
9+ - They didn't even see me! (If at sea picked up straight away, lucky blighter)

Modifiers to the dice roll:
Ace: +2
Exploded: -2
Flamer -1
Collision: -1
Wounded: -1 per wound
Enemy occupied territory: +1
Behind enemy lines -1
Healthy: +1
In Sea: -1

[gully_raker]

A6m2 Zeke / Ki-43 Oscar special rule.

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should have no restrictions on maneuvers to Veteran and Aces pilots. That means that they can do Immelmans without the straight before or after and can do two steep maneuvers in a row with no penalty.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes 2 yellow damage tokens instead of 1.

What do you think?

:thumbsup: Yes that sounds about right to me.

[flash]

Crash landing and Bailing out (modified from OTT campaign).....

I think the E&E needs working on a bit more - rather heavily biased to getting home - not a reality for many pilots captured on enemy soil or any side lost at sea !
Modifiers Enemy occupied territory: +1 & Behind enemy lines -1 would seem to cancel eachother out as one is always behind the other & although there was alot of help from the locals on the continent it generally took a very long time to escape occupied territory.
Might I suggest something like:

Getting Home Table:
2 or less - On land: Captured! The war ended for this pilot. At Sea: No escape - Pilot lost at sea
3-4 - On land: Captured! The war ended for this pilot. At sea: Captured! Picked up by enemy boat crew
5-6 - On land: Captured! - At Sea: Eventually rescued from dinghy - Skip 1+1D3 Scenarios
7-8 - Nearly made it home! - At Sea: Made it to Rescue Buoy - Skip 1+1D2 Scenarios
9+ - Lady luck is with me ! - At Sea: Seen going in; picked up by rescue boat/plane - Skip 1 Scenario

Modifiers to the dice roll:
Ace: +2
Vet +1
Rookie -1
Exploded: -2
Flamer -1
Collision: -1
Wounded: -1 per wound
Enemy territory: -3
In Sea: -3 (Cumulative with above ie their side of the ditch !)

Haven't worked out the maths yet but you will get the idea.... don't get shot down ! ;)

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I demand a recount Dave. On Malta we were not only very good at recovering our own pilots from the sea, but also Italian ones. Actually the Italians weren't bad at getting aircrews out either.;)I think that looks about right for Malta.
Rob.

[tikkifriend]

For BoB I suggest a bonus +1 for RAF near the English coast and +1 for the German crew nearer the French coast, vice versa for crews found further away from home

[fast.git]

For BoB I suggest a bonus +1 for RAF near the English coast and +1 for the German crew nearer the French coast, vice versa for crews found further away from home

Although I agree with this in theory, I thought that the British lacked dedicated S&R early in the conflict, whereas the Germans' was very well developed. I seem to remember reading that the Germans believed they held an advantage in over-Channel operations.

[David Manley]

Although I agree with this in theory, I thought that the British lacked dedicated S&R early in the conflict

no, the RAF's air sea rescue service was quite well developed, having been established and developed as the Marine Section since 1918. The big boost for the service was the introduction of fast rescue launches in the early 1930s, largely through the efforts of TE Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia")

[tikkifriend]

Ah Mr Manley you beat me to the response:)

[Blackronin]

Don't forget the Always Coming Back Home Ace Ability. It gives a +3 to all rolls.

[calm]

A6m2 Zeke / Ki-43 Oscar special rule.

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should have no restrictions on maneuvers to Veteran and Aces pilots. That means that they can do Immelmans without the straight before or after and can do two steep maneuvers in a row with no penalty.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes 2 yellow damage tokens instead of 1.

What do you think?

Like you sugestions, Joaquim !

But would not like to fly one of those candles :salute:

[Blackronin]

Like you sugestions, Joaquim !

But would not like to fly one of those candles :salute:

I've changed it to this:

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should be able to do 90º turns at low speed. Mark the movement card in some way if you want to make a 90º low turn or make a new card.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes one yellow damage tokens.

And Neil gave this idea:

"I agree the earlier models should be more susceptible to catching fire. They should climb faster than the later variants. What about giving them the evasion skill, ie the plane not the pilot? Can still be hit but they have the ability to 'dodge' the bullet but only the bullet, any special damage hits still count..so its only the numbered damage that is ignored. When played take 4-5 recovery counters before this can be used again. So it could be used 3-4 times during a game."

I'm still working on something in the middle...

[calm]

I think the E&E needs working on a bit more - rather heavily biased to getting home - not a reality for many pilots captured on enemy soil or any side lost at sea !
Modifiers Enemy occupied territory: +1 & Behind enemy lines -1 would seem to cancel eachother out as one is always behind the other & although there was alot of help from the locals on the continent it generally took a very long time to escape occupied territory.
Might I suggest something like:

Getting Home Table:
2 or less - On land: Captured! The war ended for this pilot. At Sea: No escape - Pilot lost at sea
3-4 - On land: Captured! The war ended for this pilot. At sea: Captured! Picked up by enemy boat crew
5-6 - On land: Captured! - At Sea: Eventually rescued from dinghy - Skip 1+1D3 Scenarios
7-8 - Nearly made it home! - At Sea: Made it to Rescue Buoy - Skip 1+1D2 Scenarios
9+ - Lady luck is with me ! - At Sea: Seen going in; picked up by rescue boat/plane - Skip 1 Scenario

Modifiers to the dice roll:
Ace: +2
Vet +1
Rookie -1
Exploded: -2
Flamer -1
Collision: -1
Wounded: -1 per wound
Enemy territory: -3
In Sea: -3 (Cumulative with above ie their side of the ditch !)

Haven't worked out the maths yet but you will get the idea.... don't get shot down ! ;)

Seems good to me :thumbsup:

[calm]

I've changed it to this:

Zeros/Oscars were much more maneuverable than other planes of the same time. They should be able to do 90º turns at low speed. Mark the movement card in some way if you want to make a 90º low turn or make a new card.
Also if a Zero/Oscar gets the smoke, fire, engine damage it is on fire and takes one yellow damage tokens.

And Neil gave this idea:

"I agree the earlier models should be more susceptible to catching fire. They should climb faster than the later variants. What about giving them the evasion skill, ie the plane not the pilot? Can still be hit but they have the ability to 'dodge' the bullet but only the bullet, any special damage hits still count..so its only the numbered damage that is ignored. When played take 4-5 recovery counters before this can be used again. So it could be used 3-4 times during a game."

I'm still working on something in the middle...

You are kind to the Japanese pilots :D

[Blackronin]

The Zero was really an outstanding plane when it first appeared.
Added to the quality of the Japanese Navy pilots it was really an amazing weapon.
Then the American and British planes got better and the best Japanese pilots died in droves.
You cannot use a modern weapon with a medieval frame of mind.
The Zero is a case study in many ways.

[calm]

The Zero was really an outstanding plane when it first appeared.
Added to the quality of the Japanese Navy pilots it was really an amazing weapon.
Then the American and British planes got better and the best Japanese pilots died in droves.
You cannot use a modern weapon with a medieval frame of mind.
The Zero is a case study in many ways.

Well said, Joaquim :salute:

[flash]

For BoB I suggest a bonus +1 for RAF near the English coast and +1 for the German crew nearer the French coast, vice versa for crews found further away from home

Well if not in enemy territory you don't get a -3 modifier, so thought that would have been enough !! ;)
Enemy territory: -3 [This includes the sea - say halfway across the ditch!]
In Sea: -3 (Cumulative with above ie their side of the ditch !)

[flash]

no, the RAF's air sea rescue service was quite well developed, having been established and developed as the Marine Section since 1918. The big boost for the service was the introduction of fast rescue launches in the early 1930s, largely through the efforts of TE Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia")

Had a unit based in Newhaven for many years - they even featured in a wartime movie but I can't recall the name of it at the mo. Someone has restored a HSL somewhere on the south coast recently too.

122868
the first two HSL craft which initiated the Newhaven RAF, ASR/MCS base which ran from 1939 to 1972

122869

122870

More pics here:
http://www.ournewhaven.org.uk/category_id__104_path__0p69p87p.aspx

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Can't see pics Dave.

[calm]

Can't see pics Dave.

They worked for me :thumbsup:

[Flying Officer Kyte]

No I can't get them either Dave but the Newhaven link is just what I wanted. I have just sent off for my Air Sea Rescue boat.
Rob.

[flash]

Can't see pics Dave.

Don't show for me but do if you click on the attachment but if you follow the link you'll see them & more - lovely looking boats. Remember the modern ones when I was a youngster - used to pass them when we went sailing.

And the film was 'The Sea Shall not Have Them'.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

They are there now Dave.
Thanks even more.
Rob.

[flash]

Don't forget the Always Coming Back Home Ace Ability. It gives a +3 to all rolls.

I'd happily forgotten this 'gamey' ace ability !
Apply it to the getting home table as it stands you'd get +2 for being an ace & +3 for this so called skill; even if you rolled a 2 your result would be: "7 - Nearly made it home !" as a minimum every time you roll. Makes it hardly worth getting the dice out.
Who's flying the 'plane ? Captain Scarlet ?! What a load of pony.
Maybe I'll take the pilots flying ability out of the getting home table after all.

[Blackronin]

And what about a +2 instead of a +3?! ;)
You must agree that this is not a "gamey" ability, Dave. There were pilots - in both wars - that did have this ability to always get home. How? Luck. Improvisation. Guts. But they did always returned home. So I guess that it's as a gamey ability as others we use.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

If you restrict the ability to perhaps 1 or 2 per squadron wold that make it playable?

Neil

[flash]

..You must agree that this is not a "gamey" ability, Dave.....

Don't agree - Thought I'd made that pretty clear already ! - but I'm sure you'll want to put it in the game anyway so I think Neils suggestion to restrict it in some way makes sense. Noticed it wasn't a player ability so restrict it to one of your AI pilots; I'd also suggest limit its use to either the Crash or the Get Home roll but not both so there is a limit to his luck !

[flash]

The getting home table without pilot ability thrown in but with crash/bale/health tweak could look like this:

Getting Home Table:
2 or less - On land: Captured! The war ended for this pilot. At Sea: No escape - Pilot lost at sea
3-4 - On land: Captured! The war ended for this pilot. At sea: Captured! Picked up by enemy boat crew
5-6 - On land: Captured! - At Sea: Eventually rescued from dinghy - Skip 1+1D3 Scenarios
7-8 - Nearly made it home! - At Sea: Made it to Rescue Buoy - Skip 1+1D2 Scenarios
9+ - Lady luck is with me ! - At Sea: Seen going in; picked up by rescue boat/plane - Skip 1 Scenario

Modifiers to the dice roll:
Crashed: -1
Baled Out: +1
Wounded: -1 per wound
Healthy: +1
Enemy territory: -3 (ie their side of the ditch)
In Sea: -3 (Cumulative with above)

[Blackronin]

Don't agree - Thought I'd made that pretty clear already ! - but I'm sure you'll want to put it in the game anyway so I think Neils suggestion to restrict it in some way makes sense. Noticed it wasn't a player ability so restrict it to one of your AI pilots; I'd also suggest limit its use to either the Crash or the Get Home roll but not both so there is a limit to his luck !

Yes I will put this Ace ability in play. There are enough evidence of this ability in real life. You can call it a lucky-skill ability, if you want, but a lot of real pilots seemed to suffer from it:

Erich Hartman, was shot down around 14 times in combat, several times in enemy territory and always returned home.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel, with a starting career as a mediocre pilot, became one of the best pilots ever, was shot down, crippled, seriously wounded and always returned home.
Saburo Sakai, even in a country that offered his beloved pilots to certain death, some of them seemed to have a knack about returning back home. Wounded beyond belief, Sakai was skillful and lucky to return home several times.
Matsumi Nakano, that rammed several B-29's with his Ki-61, was able to save his life several times.

And I could go on and on just searching for pilots that entered war early and were able to finish it. Are these representative of thousand pilots dead in the conflict? Probably not. But these are extras. And the ace rules are made for extras. Saying that this is a gamey ability is acceptable if you also add all the other ace abilities to the category of gamey. Aces were a very low percentage. The majority were average men, doing their job.

[tikkifriend]

If you restrict the ability to perhaps 1 or 2 per squadron wold that make it playable?

Neil

Or perhaps alow its use only a limited number of times.

[gully_raker]

Or perhaps alow its use only a limited number of times.

:confused: Perhaps limit it to only one pilot in your roster.
Well that is what I have done anyway.:D

[Flying Officer Kyte]

:confused: Perhaps limit it to only one pilot in your roster.
Well that is what I have done anyway.:D

Seems like a good compromise to me Baz.
That way you can make your leading character/ story teller have continuity throughout the whole campaign. However, he should not be able to come out as the leading Ace at the end of it.
Rob.

[flash]

...There are enough evidence of this ability in real life. You can call it a lucky-skill ability, if you want, but a lot of real pilots seemed to suffer from it....

A few maybe, not alot, and I don't believe the instances of it were so common that every unit had one but the nature of the campaign set is that the frequency will be at least one per section - experience tells us that some people will want more than that; if it's made easily available then there will be instances of more than one per team. This is what makes it an 'extra' gamey skill to me - The ludicrous incidence of indestructible pilots.
Thanks for taking the time to research your examples for me though - I found it interesting that none served in the Battle of Britain.
(Bubi served on the Ost Front (from '42), as did Rudel who, notably, spent the Battle of Britain & Crete invasion in non-combat roles; so not any sea landings for them - they walked home ! Saburo Sakai RTB horribly wounded and spent a year out training pilots before returning to the fray. Exceptional men. :salute:)
However, I think our time may be better spent on discussing the suggested limitations to this skill instead of trying to convince eachother of something neither of us will accept. :slysmile:
Points raised were:
Restrict its use to one of your AI pilots
Having re-read it I see it only applies to bailing out & getting home not the crash element so that's something.
Perhaps it shouldn't count as an ace skill per-se, just an inherent ability of the selected pilot that he has from the word go ?

[Blackronin]

It seems okay with me.
It gives an edge to you favorite pilot, whether because he's the story teller, the glue in your campaign, or just the hero.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

It seems okay with me.
It gives an edge to you favorite pilot, whether because he's the story teller, the glue in your campaign, or just the hero.
I am also happy with Dave's suggestion.
Rob.

[flash]

Amended rule to read:

Always coming Home
Pilot's Only
When crashes, the Pilot will always find a way to return home to the aerodrome. He has a +3 bonus when rolling for bailing out and escaping.
Only one of your pilots may have this ability; it doesn't count as an 'ace abilty' but rather an inherent ability of the selected pilot from his start in the campaign.
(this means you can give it to a replacement if you don't use it in your starting line up )

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Spot on Dave.
Rob.

[Blackronin]

Fair enough. I'll start using this ability this way in all my games from now on.

[flash]

Of course as it's not counted as an ace ability he can be gifted one of those when he starts if that's the players whim, which will help with the crash roll. :slysmile:

[flash]

Some Decisions need to be made so that the rules in regards to wounds/crashes/escape can be finalised and posted:

Options I can see:

a) Rules as currently posted
b) Rules as posted but with some modification
c) Modified OTT rules posted by Neil
d) Modified OTT rules with the Getting Home table posted by Dave (replacing Escaping enemy territory tables)

Please post your vote on your favoured version.

Having followed the discussion on the Zero we may also have to have a section in the rules to post accepted aircraft rule mods !

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Roma and Littorio: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1802

Fritz X: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1803

Bolzano: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1804

Duca D'Aosta and Eugenio Di Savoia: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1805

MV Melbourne Star and MV Brisbane Star: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1806

SS Ohio and MV Wairangi: (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1806)http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1807

Fritz X v1.2: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1809

SS Santa Elisa and MV Rochester Castle: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1810

SS Almeria Lykes and MV Deucalion: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1808

MV Wiamarama and MV Empire Hope: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1811

MV Dorset and MV Clan Ferguson: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1812

MV Glenorchy and MV Port Chalmers: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1813

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

SS Ohio and MV Wairangi in the queue.

[Blackronin]

Thanks again, Neil!
These are great.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I agree with Joaquim, Neil. They are first rate in all senses.
Thanks again.
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Original post updated with all the file links and is up to date.

[flash]

Some Decisions need to be made so that the rules in regards to wounds/crashes/escape can be finalised and posted:

Options I can see:

a) Rules as currently posted
b) Rules as posted but with some modification
c) Modified OTT rules posted by Neil
d) Modified OTT rules with the Getting Home table posted by Dave (replacing Escaping enemy territory tables)

Please post your vote on your favoured version.

Having followed the discussion on the Zero we may also have to have a section in the rules to post accepted aircraft rule mods !

No takers then ? No-one interested in getting the rules sorted ?! :hmm:

[Blackronin]

I am.
But as someone who introduced changes, I was waiting for others to speak for themselves.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I cast my vote for this one Dave.
Always coming Home
Pilot's Only
When crashes, the Pilot will always find a way to return home to the aerodrome. He has a +3 bonus when rolling for bailing out and escaping.
Only one of your pilots may have this ability; it doesn't count as an 'ace abilty' but rather an inherent ability of the selected pilot from his start in the campaign.
(this means you can give it to a replacement if you don't use it in your starting line up )
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I cast my vote for this one too Dave.
Always coming Home
Pilot's Only
When crashes, the Pilot will always find a way to return home to the aerodrome. He has a +3 bonus when rolling for bailing out and escaping.
Only one of your pilots may have this ability; it doesn't count as an 'ace abilty' but rather an inherent ability of the selected pilot from his start in the campaign.
(this means you can give it to a replacement if you don't use it in your starting line up )
Rob.

[tikkifriend]

mE tWO? i DID VOTE EARLIER BUT CANNOT FIND THE POST? COMP BEING A BIT OF AN ARSE AT THE MOMENT.

[tikkifriend]

see what I mean

[Flying Officer Kyte]

see what I mean

Looks as if your computer has gone down with the dreaded caps lock virus Paul.;)
I sometimes get a touch of it myself.:eek:
Nothing that a stiff G&T wON@T cURE.:FOK:
There we go. Right as ninepencE. :FOK:
Woops! Go tit this time. Better just make absolutely sure.:FOK:
Rob.:FOK:

[Steel Legion]

Don't forget we need a Mission: Freie Jagd (Fighter Sweep) for the Fighter Units for a Battle of Britain

[calm]

I cast my vote with the majority :D

[calm]

Don't forget we need a Mission: Freie Jagd (Fighter Sweep) for the Fighter Units for a Battle of Britain

Good point !

[tikkifriend]

Looks as if your computer has gone down with the dreaded caps lock virus Paul.;)
I sometimes get a touch of it myself.:eek:
Nothing that a stiff G&T wON@T cURE.:FOK:
There we go. Right as ninepencE. :FOK:
Woops! Go tit this time. Better just make absolutely sure.:FOK:
Rob.:FOK:

That's it Rob. You are a genius :clap: The Caps lock must have got stuck when the red wine spilt over the Camenbert I was eating last night:drinks::cheezy:

[flash]

Good response but RTFI gentlemen ! That item has already been sorted. So again....

Some Decisions need to be made so that the rules in regards to wounds/crashes/escape can be finalised and posted:

Options I can see:

a) Rules as currently posted - the first set in the sticky
b) Rules as posted but with some modification - ie keep it simple but tweak the crash/wounds/bail areas
c) Modified OTT crash/wound/bail rules posted by Neil - see post 61
d) Modified OTT crash/wound/bail rules with the Getting Home table posted by Dave (replacing Escaping enemy territory tables) - see post 63 & 87

Please post your vote on your favoured version... a, b, c, or d ! I thankyou.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I am going to vote for option B if it is amended to give some allowance for being picked up at sea. As the Malta scenarios will have more sea crashes and bailouts than Europe, owing to the standard tactics adopted of meeting the enemy as far out as possible.
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

yes, B sounds favourable for me with the amendments mooted, ie pick up at sea.

[gully_raker]

:thumbsup: Yep! I will go with B plus the Sea rescue which was all important in the Pacific battleground being mostly over water.;)

[Marechallannes]

Vote for a) (KISS - principle). A 50%-50% chance to survive the damage and bail out of your shot and going down plane.

But should no problem to use b) in the rules.

Like said before, many battlefields leave no option to escape. ...shot down over Malta, England or Burma jungle for example.

But there are enemy territories that leave the possibility to escape like occupied France or Norway.

[flash]

Looks like B will take the day, I would've voted for that on the KISS principle:

So someone needs to modify this (option a):

1.6. Wounded Pilots (roll 1D6):
1-3 - Out of Action;
4-6 - Just a bruise. Some iodine and I'm ready for action.

Modifiers:
Ace +2;
Veteran +1,
Rookie -1;
Bailed out/crash-landed -1

1.7. Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-3 - KIA;
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed.

Modifiers:
Ace +2;
Veteran +1,
Rookie -1;
Explosion -1

Points I raised earlier that you may wish to consider:

1. On the shot down table there is only KIA / Bail or Crash land. You might want to consider a wound result from the bail/crash land otherwise you are killed or get away without a scratch ?

2. Wounded pilots table - why would being an ace, or whatever skill level a pilot is, make a difference to them being wounded ?
Bail/Crash landed as a negative makes sense though.

3. As a result of a roll of 1-3 is 'Out of Action' permanent ?
or would you say out of action 1-3 missions to match the roll made ? ie Roll 1 miss 1.?

4. Shot down table - being wounded would be a negative factor to add to the list.

5. Probables: Perhaps if an aircraft has engine/smoke/fire damage ongoing when it breaks off there should be something to determine if the kite gets back across the ditch ! 1 on a D6 or something. The pilot causing the fire/smoke etc may claim a probable ? Maybe a separate Ditching table for them ? 1-3 KIA 4-6 Rescued ? On a 4 WIA.

I'm willing to have a crack at it unless there is a volunteer ! ;)

[Blackronin]

Not trying to put extra wood in the fire, I would also consider these rules. They are easy to use and will give variation to a game.
Surprise. Rules that alter the deployment of planes if the player surprised the enemy or if it was surprised. Special scenarios can over-rule the Surprise rule.

Surprise table (Roll 2D6)
2 or less - You've been completely surprised! You're doomed! Enemy planes start 1 rule away from your planes in their 5/6 aspect and facing your planes.
3-5 - You've been surprised! You're in a tight spot! Enemy planes start 1 rule away from your planes in their 3/4 aspect and facing your planes.
6-8 - No surprise.
9-11 - You surprised the enemy. Your planes start 1 rule away from your enemy's planes in their 3/4 aspect and facing his planes.
12 or more - You've got them! They're doomed! Your planes start 1 rule away from AI's planes in their 5/6 aspect and facing the AI's planes.

Modifiers:
They have bombers: +2 to roll
You have bombers: -2 to roll
They are intercepting: -2 to roll
You are intercepting: +2 to roll
You have an ace: +2 to roll
They have an ace: -2 to roll
You have rookies: -2 to roll
You have a mission: -1 to roll
They have a mission: +1 to roll

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

You may well see the spreadsheet evolving as we continue. At present the BoB section is 50% completed. If I have missed any stats let me know. For Joaquim, you've lost 3 Hurricanes. Your squadron may well be waiting awhile for replacements. (sorry).

[flash]

No volunteers so how about these mods:

Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-2 - KIA;
3-4 - Bailed out/Crash-landed WIA
5-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed OK

Modifiers:
Ace +1
Rookie -1
Explosion -1
Wounded -1
In Sea -1

Wounded Pilots (roll 1D6):
1 - Out of Action for good
2 - Out of Action for 2 Scenario
3 - Out of Action for 1 scenario
4-6 - Just a Scratch. Some iodine and he's ready for action.

Modifiers:
Each wound after the first -1

Probables:
If an aircraft that has engine/smoke/fire damage ongoing when it breaks off then the pilot causing the engine/fire/smoke etc may claim a probable.
Such damaged aircraft roll 1D6 - on a 1 they ditch - Roll on the Shot Down Table.


Rather than have separate tables for land & sea crash landings (went that way for a moment) I added a neg modifier for a sea landing to the shot down table. If you survive take it you're rescued.
Added an 'out of action for good' to the wounds table & did away with the pilot modifiers. Would be same as the shot down table if I added them in.
What do you think chaps ?

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Seems O.K. to me Dave. Thanks for running in yet another try for us.
I'll start painting me rescue launch guv.
Rob.

[Blackronin]

These tables seem very good to me, Dave.
Thanks for your trouble. You are working above and beyond duty.
Are you sure you don't want to come in into the fray?
The water is so goooood....

[Flying Officer Kyte]

These tables seem very good to me, Dave.
Thanks for your trouble. You are working above and beyond duty.
Are you sure you don't want to come in into the fray?
The water is so goooood....

And it's warm. Well it is round my neck of the woods at any rate.
Kyte.

[Steel Legion]

Not sure where to ask this question, so I am asking it here. In regards to After Action Reports for the Campaign are photo's required and if so, how do you attach them to your post. Sorry, but at times, I am not so computer oriented.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Hi Louis.
Do go and have a look here.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?83-Site-Rules-and-Info

Rob.

[Steel Legion]

Thank you

[flash]

Seems O.K. to me Dave. Thanks for running in yet another try for us.
I'll start painting me rescue launch guv.
Rob.

Thanks Rob - looking at it again I think there will have too be a rider on the Shot Down table of 'Downed in enemy territory = captured'

[flash]

Have added this to the rules sticky - Neil can let us know how it works out ! Any changes required let me know asap. :)

1.7 Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-2 - KIA;
3-4 - Bailed out/Crash-landed WIA
5-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed OK

Modifiers:
Ace +1
Rookie -1
Explosion -1
Wounded -1
In Sea -1

(Rather than have separate tables for land & sea crash landings added a neg modifier for a sea landing to the shot down table. If you survive take it you're rescued. If in enemy territory you're captured - flash)

1.8 Wounded Pilots (roll 1D6):
1 - Out of Action for good
2 - Out of Action for 2 Scenario
3 - Out of Action for 1 scenario
4-6 - Just a Scratch. Some iodine and he's ready for action.

Modifiers:
Each wound after the first -1

(Added an 'out of action for good' to the wounds table & did away with the pilot modifiers - flash)

1.9 Probables:
If an aircraft that has engine/smoke/fire damage ongoing when it breaks off & it has to return over the sea then the pilot causing the engine/fire/smoke etc may claim a probable.
Such damaged aircraft roll 1D6 - on a 1 they ditch - Roll on the Shot Down Table.*

[*maybe this could be left to results of fire damage?]

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Dave the chart is very anti-survival. Sorry. Rolled Robs downed Malta pilot 6 times and he only survived on roll 7!.
How about
...0 or below KIA
1-2 Bailed out/crashed landed seriously wounded (roll 1d6 for missed scenarios)
3-4 Bailed out /Crash Landed wounded(roll 1d3 for missed scenarios)
5-6 Bailed out/Crash Landed miss 1 scenario
...6+ RTB no worries.

Neil

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Interesting that result Neil.
I was quite O.K. with the chart as I had indicated, but because of your result I looked up the rescue stats for Malta and was astounded to find that in all pickups by Air sea rescue and marine craft for all Nationalities between June 1940 and August 1944 292 airmen were picked up. Of those 275 were alive and 17 dead. Of those dead 6 were Italian or German.
Quite an interesting result.
I can only assume that the high level of success was due to the close proximity of most action to Malta, and the warm seas, plus the generally clear weather conditions in that part of the world.
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I'm following Daves example and using it here too:

Please remember to use the Butchers Tally format at the end of your AAR as it makes the admin much easier:

Pilots name / what happened to them & where / injuries / Victories
eg: Lt Stan Deasey / SD ET / WIA / 1 Kill

RTB- Returned to base
SD - Shot down
EXP - Shot down Boom card
COL - Downed by Collision
FLM - Shot down flamer
WIA - Wounded
KIA - Killed
FT - Friendly Territory
ET - Enemy Territory
S - Sea (well someone's bound to !)

Note: Failure to do so will result in your game stats going unrecorded, kills unconfirmed

[Flying Officer Kyte]

It is permissible to use the shorthand version as written here then Neil? Rather than write it all out as I have been doing thus far.
Rob.

[Blackronin]

Tables are too deadly, IMHO.

[calm]

I'm following Daves example and using it here too:

Please remember to use the Butchers Tally format at the end of your AAR as it makes the admin much easier:

Pilots name / what happened to them & where / injuries / Victories
eg: Lt Stan Deasey / SD ET / WIA / 1 Kill

RTB- Returned to base
SD - Shot down
EXP - Shot down Boom card
COL - Downed by Collision
FLM - Shot down flamer
WIA - Wounded
KIA - Killed
FT - Friendly Territory
ET - Enemy Territory
S - Sea (well someone's bound to !)

Note: Failure to do so will result in your game stats going unrecorded, kills unconfirmed

I will start making this notes in the next scenario I play !

[flash]

Dave the chart is very anti-survival. Sorry. Rolled Robs downed Malta pilot 6 times and he only survived on roll 7!.
How about
...0 or below KIA
1-2 Bailed out/crashed landed seriously wounded (roll 1d6 for missed scenarios)
3-4 Bailed out /Crash Landed wounded(roll 1d3 for missed scenarios)
5-6 Bailed out/Crash Landed miss 1 scenario
...6+ RTB no worries.

Neil

No need to apologise Neil - I was going for a little realism; clearly some peeps are more precious about the pilots than I am ! I can't comment on the example given as I don't know what happened to Robs pilot so don't know what the modifiers are applied & I don't know what was rolled. Can you give that info ? Did you expect the pilot to survive ? I've just expanded on what was given initially & that was 1-3 KIA ! Taking the rookie mod out would help things.
In the example you give there is a chance that the penalty for any result is skip 1 mission which doesn't feel right - let me re-work it for you & see what you think.

[flash]

These tables seem very good to me, Dave......


Tables are too deadly, IMHO.

Better pick the always coming home ability then Joaquim !! :takecover: ;)

[tikkifriend]

I'm following Daves example and using it here too:

Please remember to use the Butchers Tally format at the end of your AAR as it makes the admin much easier:

Pilots name / what happened to them & where / injuries / Victories
eg: Lt Stan Deasey / SD ET / WIA / 1 Kill

RTB- Returned to base
SD - Shot down
EXP - Shot down Boom card
COL - Downed by Collision
FLM - Shot down flamer
WIA - Wounded
KIA - Killed
FT - Friendly Territory
ET - Enemy Territory
S - Sea (well someone's bound to !)

Note: Failure to do so will result in your game stats going unrecorded, kills unconfirmed

Ouch your're so strict :smack::lol:

[flash]

.....looked up the rescue stats for Malta and was astounded to find that in all pick-ups by Air sea rescue and marine craft for all Nationalities between June 1940 and August 1944 292 airmen were picked up. Of those 275 were alive and 17 dead. Of those dead 6 were Italian or German.
Quite an interesting result. I can only assume that the high level of success was due to the close proximity of most action to Malta, and the warm seas, plus the generally clear weather conditions in that part of the world. Rob.

Stats are over a period of 4 years - roughly 73 per year, or, about 1.5 pickups per week - out of how many dropped in the drink we don't know.
Don't get me wrong, saving a life is always a success but, other than showing lives were saved, I wouldn't say this stat can be the basis of any rule decision on survival without knowing the number of those who dropped in the drink. The basic 60% chance provided in the table is therefore very generous.

[flash]

Ouch your're so strict :smack::lol:

Try spending at least 20 mins per AAR to sort out who shot who when from the pictures & commentary because someone can't be arsed to follow the rules rather than the 2 mins it should take then you can tell us we're strict ! :brickwal: ;)

[tikkifriend]

:cry::takecover:

[tikkifriend]

:thumbsup::pint:

[Blackronin]

Better pick the always coming home ability then Joaquim !! :takecover: ;)

The tables are very good, my friend, but a little tweaking here and there can always improve things. :)

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I'll go with your table then Dave. 60% survival rate is better than none.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Would seem about right to me as well.
After all some of the other 40% will end up as PoW.
Rob.

[flash]

I'll go with your table then Dave. 60% survival rate is better than none.

That quote was for a basic sea landing Neil - ie -1 sea mod & nothing else - good chance you will be rescued, however, if wounded & a rookie your chances begin to plummet & chuck in an explosion you're done !
Chances are good you will make a sea landing in your games and for a time be a rookie pilot but how many will be wounded & exploding too? Once past rookie status things obviously improve - are there less rookies in the Jagdstaffeln ?

Anyway - using the initial format this might answer your needs ? Have a test roll or two & let me know what you think.

1 - KIA
2-3 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - WIA
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - OK

Modifiers:
Ace +1
Rookie -1
Explosion -1
Wounded -1
In Sea -1

[Blackronin]

That quote was for a basic sea landing Neil - ie -1 sea mod & nothing else - good chance you will be rescued, however, if wounded & a rookie your chances begin to plummet & chuck in an explosion you're done !
Chances are good you will make a sea landing in your games and for a time be a rookie pilot but how many will be wounded & exploding too? Once past rookie status things obviously improve - are there less rookies in the Jagdstaffeln ?

Anyway - using the initial format this might answer your needs ? Have a test roll or two & let me know what you think.

1 - KIA
2-3 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - WIA
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - OK

Modifiers:
Ace +1
Rookie -1
Explosion -1
Wounded -1
In Sea -1

I would only change the explosion modifier from -1 to -2

[flash]

These tables seem very good to me, Dave......


Tables are too deadly, IMHO.


I would only change the explosion modifier from -1 to -2

Thought the table was too deadly - now you want it deadlier ?! Suits me - how about you other chaps ?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

PTO spreadsheet link. DAve could you add this to the rules sticky please?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am3I2owHUyGgdEhjV1BPUXpmNEhFRXFZQjBneWNFMXc#gid=2

[flash]

PTO spreadsheet link. DAve could you add this to the rules sticky please?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am3I2owHUyGgdEhjV1BPUXpmNEhFRXFZQjBneWNFMXc#gid=2

Done !

[Blackronin]

Thought the table was too deadly - now you want it deadlier ?! Suits me - how about you other chaps ?

Just the explosion, Dave. I was under the impression that an explosion was a deadly event...

[flash]

Just the explosion, Dave. I was under the impression that an explosion was a deadly event...

I thought air fighting as a whole was a pretty deadly event !
I was going to up it before but the trend, certainly from you, is to be more lenient so I left it.
Maybe if I outline what my thoughts were when I offered the first modifications then there might be a better understanding:

Taking from the original post of rules - something simple, quick & easy for Neil to use - shaded with realism but a good chance of survival.

1.7 Shot Down Table (roll 1D6):
1-2 - KIA [Using 1-2 KIA (less than original) On a natural 1 with no other modifiers even an Ace pilot can die]
3-4 - Bailed out/Crash-landed WIA [We needed a chance of WIA as original it was KIA or walk away]
5-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed OK [We needed pilots to have a chance]

Modifiers:
Ace +1 [Reduced otherwise aces run no risk of death on a natural 1 without any other mod]
Rookie -1 [Kept this as if an Ace is good why shouldn't a rookie be vulnerable & it is a short lived status]
Explosion -1 [if it's -2 with no other mod applied it's 50-50 KIA or WIA with no chance of an OK result, with -1 there is.]
Wounded -1 [Wounds have a part to play in survival]
In Sea -1 [Needed to reduce chances for those who end up in the drink]

(Rather than have separate tables for land & sea crash landings added a neg modifier for a sea landing to the shot down table. If you survive take it you're rescued. If in enemy territory you're captured - flash)

My response to it being harsh - which it possibly is on rookies with wounds or sea landings (need 5 or 6) is to either remove the rookie mod or consider this table or a combination of both:

1 - KIA [Ace cannot be killed on a roll of 1 if no other mods apply]
2-3 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - WIA
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - OK

Modifiers:
Ace +1
Rookie -1 [take this out as well ?]
Explosion -2 [Bump this up to 2 now]
Wounded -1
In Sea -1

I like both but the latter may be a preference. As the campaign is about to start perhaps Neil can make a final decision so it can be posted?

[Blackronin]

My approach to this is almost the same as yours with a little variation.
There is already deadly damage inside the tactical game. Explosions and wounds.
I take that an explosion is a severe event. Thus the -2.
Two wounds kills a pilot so there is already a chance of dying before the bail-out roll.

I prefer this table for several reasons:

1 - KIA (16,6% of dying from bail out is above the average in ww2 - but acceptable in our game)
2-3 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - WIA
4-6 - Bailed out/Crash-landed - OK

Modifiers:
Ace +1 (Aces were also veterans so this modifier makes sense)
Rookie or wounded -1 (I would use this, so that rookies would have a small chance to land ok)
Explosion -2 (an explosion is a more deadly event, this the higher modifier)
In Sea -1 (The sea can kill in several ways, so this modifier seems fair)

[flash]

....Two wounds kills a pilot so there is already a chance of dying before the bail-out roll.... 1- KIA (16,6% of dying from bail out is above the average in ww2 - but acceptable in our game)...

Remember it is a shot down table rather than a bail out roll that tells us what happens to the pilot when his aircraft becomes less than airworthy. He jumps or pancakes, he lives, wounded or not, or, he dies. KIA represents pilot killed for any reason connected with being shot down - jammed canopy, too low to jump, bad crash-landing whatever it may be. (though, admittedly it could include a failed 'chute scenario, ..it happens !).

Neil I think we have a winner ??? ! ;)

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Neil I think we have a winner ??? ! ;)

Run with it Dave. Touch down. Good try.:clap:
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I would like to broach the subject of carrier landings.

I would like to put forward the following simple table:

A pilot has two choices, ditch (due to damage) or attempt to land.

ROLL.DITCH.......................................ROLL...DECK LANDING
<0...KIA............................................-1<......KIA. PLANE BURSTS INTO FIRE.
..1...BADLY WOUNDED HOME FOR YOU......0.......BADLY WOUNDED HOME FOR YOU. UNDERCARRIAGE FAILS.
..2...WOUNDED MISS 1D6 SCENARIOS.... 1.......PLANE WRITTEN OFF/PILOT MISS 1D6 SCENARIOS
..3...WOUNDED MISS 1D3 SCENARIOS......2.......PLANE MISS 1D6 SCENARIOS/PILOT MISS 1D3 SCENARIOS
..4...MISS 1 SCENARIO..........................3.......PLANE MISS 1D3 SCENARIOS/PILOT MISS 1 SCENARIO
..5...PULLED FROM SEA OK.....................4+.....JUST MADE IT.
..6...PULLED FROM SEA OK.

+2 Ace
+1 Vet
-1 Rookie
-1/wound
-1 +50% damage

[Blackronin]

Neil, I suppose that this is a table used only for the landing of damaged planes. Am I right?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Sorry yes, I didn't make that point terribly clear.


Neil, I suppose that this is a table used only for the landing of damaged planes. Am I right?

[Blackronin]

I would clear that:

Carrier landing table
(For wounded pilots, engine damage, 50% or more damage)

ROLL.DITCH.......................................ROLL...DECK LANDING
<0...KIA............................................-1<......KIA. PLANE BURSTS INTO FIRE.
..1...BADLY WOUNDED HOME FOR YOU......0.......BADLY WOUNDED HOME FOR YOU. UNDERCARRIAGE FAILS.
..2...WOUNDED MISS 1D6 SCENARIOS.... 1.......PLANE WRITTEN OFF/PILOT MISS 1D6 SCENARIOS
..3...WOUNDED MISS 1D3 SCENARIOS......2.......PLANE MISS 1D6 SCENARIOS/PILOT MISS 1D3 SCENARIOS
..4...MISS 1 SCENARIO..........................3.......PLANE MISS 1D3 SCENARIOS/PILOT MISS 1 SCENARIO
..5...PULLED FROM SEA OK.....................4+.....JUST MADE IT.
..6...PULLED FROM SEA OK.

+2 Ace
+1 Vet
-1 Rookie
-1/wound
-1 +50% damage
-1 damaged Carrier

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Thank you Joaquim, that has cleared it up just great.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Nice addition Chaps.:clap:
Rob.

[Blackronin]

I have some thought I would like to share with you. I know we are already inside the campaign and that changes will not affect previous scenarios played. Yet, to my defense, I think that these changes might create a more realistic environment in our games and thus create a better story.

For all Theater of Operations:

4. Angling Shots - All shots that don't enter the enemy plane in its rear arc and front arc are always long range shots;
All close range shots that enter the enemy's plane rear arc at close range add an A damage chit;
All close range shots that enter the enemy's plane frontal arc suffer reduction. All B, C and D chits become A chits instead.
These rules adds to the extra A damage chit for continuous fire (i.e. firing against the same enemy plane for consecutive turns).
Example: A ki-43 is firing for the second consecutive time against a P-40 in the P-40 rear arc at close range. It would make AAB damage.

For the PTO:

After the first mission I decided that something must be made to achieve the true feeling of Eastern early war combat.
All accounts point to a drastic difference in performance between the Zero and Ki-43 and the allied fighters. We can't feel that difference between C deck and the other decks.
Also, even knowing that the Ki-43 was brutally under-armed, the truth is, a vast number of allied fighters and bombers fell under the guns of this fighter.
And finally the 16 damage the zero has comparing with the 17 and 18 damage points of the American fighters doesn't really shows how much more fragile the Japanese fighters were in the initial stages of the war.

In order to offset this and without wanting to change the spirit of the game or making it more complex I devised the following house rules that I'll use in my Solo PTO Campaign:

1. The C+ deck - I add 1 left and 1 right 90º turn card from the L deck. The ki-43 Hayabusa and the A6M2 Zero will use the C+ decl instead of the C deck.
2. No self sealing fuel tanks - The early versions of the Japanese planes didn't have self sealing fuel tanks. A damage chit of smoke becomes automatically a fire chit.
3. No cockpit protection armor - When a Japanese plane takes a pilot wounded damage take another yellow damage chit. If a special damage (any) appears in the chit, the pilot is mortally wounded and the plane crashes. If not, it's a normal wounded damage and a second one will kill the pilot as per normal rules.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Joaquim what of the favoured tactic by German fighters, or any other for that matter, attacking head on against bombers, or other aircraft, that had poor frontal defence? A large disadvantage there.


4. Angling Shots - All shots that don't enter the enemy plane in its rear arc and front arc are always long range shots;
All close range shots that enter the enemy's plane rear arc at close range add an A damage chit;
All close range shots that enter the enemy's plane frontal arc suffer reduction. All B, C and D chits become A chits instead.
These rules adds to the extra A damage chit for continuous fire (i.e. firing against the same enemy plane for consecutive turns).
Example: A ki-43 is firing for the second consecutive time against a P-40 in the P-40 rear arc at close range. It would make AAB damage.

[Blackronin]

Joaquim what of the favoured tactic by German fighters, or any other for that matter, attacking head on against bombers, or other aircraft, that had poor frontal defence? A large disadvantage there.

They received less fire from the bombers, but it was a demanding task altogether. Harder than taking them from behind.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I'm a bit worried that it may disadvantage the Gladiators, who's only chance against the faster Italian aircraft is a side swipe. Frontal is fatal, and they can't catch up in a tail chase.
Rob.

[Blackronin]

Rob, for planes with inferior firepower, the disavantage isn't as big as for those that have a better firepower. A Gladiator will have its firepower reduced from B to A, bit a Me-109 has a redution from ACC to C. So the Gladiator still maintains the advantage with this rule.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thanks for elucidating Joaquim.
That puts my mind at rest then.
Rob.

[Blackronin]

Glad to be of help, my friend.