Shoot at the real thing

[Goering Ace]

In BD they have an advanced option to "shoot at the real thing", which means the ruler must reach/contact the actual image of the plane (if using a card) to score a hit. I'd like to try this out, but first I have a few questions for anyone who has tried using this option for game play.
1 - does it slow down the game to any great degree?
2 - do you find it more fun, less fun or no difference?
3 - When using minis is it difficult to determine hits with the ruler since the mini is on pegs?

Scott

[Dathbain]

I cant answer for the minis, but we use this optional rule for the cards. Our group likes it since it makes more sense and a little more drama when your just out of range. It has caused a few arguements, such as when the ruler touches the very, very end of the tail and overlaps like one millimeter, but we really enjoy it a lot better than just shooting anywhere on the card.

Dave

[flash]

Hi Scott - when I play the cards the ruler has to touch from red dot to red dot and when I play the minis, which is what I do most, then the ruler has to touch from peg to peg thus ensuring a "solid" hit.
Never played it as just hitting the card - would that mean when playing with the minis just hitting the base would do ?? That just seems ridiculous to me !
Hope this helps - Dave

[usmc1855]

We play with Minis, and measure from the shooters peg to any part of the airplane.

For our group we considered that the bullets don't vanish the moment they reach the end of the ruler and that each shot fired isn't a single shot but a burst. Additionally.... that burst isn't 'keyholeing' each bullet fired into the exact same aim point.

We like playing it this way and it doesn't slow the game down.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Hi Scott - when I play the cards the ruler has to touch from red dot to red dot and when I play the minis, which is what I do most, then the ruler has to touch from peg to peg thus ensuring a "solid" hit.
Never played it as just hitting the card - would that mean when playing with the minis just hitting the base would do ?? That just seems ridiculous to me !
Hope this helps - Dave

We use your system Dave. The only thing that is a problem is if other planes get in the way. You don't have this trouble with a flat card. However it doesn't happen very often, unless you are flying lots of planes.. I want a laser ruler.:cool:
Rob.

[Gaz67]

We play shooters peg to any part of the target's base.
I suppose if we were very fussy we could play from actual gun position to any part of the target mini, but we find the quickest way is place the ruler up against the peg and see if you make contact with the enemy base.

[Olt^Jones]

... when I play the minis, which is what I do most, then the ruler has to touch from peg to peg thus ensuring a "solid" hit.

hi Scott, same rule also for my wow group.only in the early matches we used the original "hit-rule".then we evolved to a more difficult one.

[Rum Demon]

Measuring peg to peg seems to be the best way to avoid any arguments. If the ruler doesn't fit between the pegs, you have a solid hit. No bones about it.

[Goering Ace]

We currently play from the peg of the shooter to any part of the targets base. I really like the idea of going peg to peg, especially with the minis since it could be a little difficult to determine if the ruler is touching part of the plane as it sits on numerous pegs.

Thank you all for the input. This will help us as we look to take our games to the next level.

Scott

[Oberst Hajj]

My group does peg to base. We look at it as the base represents the airspace the plane is occupying during the movement phase (since shooting and moving would happen at the same time in real life). This keeps the game quick and allows us to "get into the action" a little more often... which is what we enjoy most in this game!

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I really like the idea of going peg to peg, especially with the minis since it could be a little difficult to determine if the ruler is touching part of the plane as it sits on numerous pegs.
Scott[/QUOTE]

Yes! We found that a slight misalignment of the tail plane at long range and you were missing, especially if attacking from amidships. The peg is the center of the Universe.
Rob.

[Gord]

In BD they have an advanced option to "shoot at the real thing", which means the ruler must reach/contact the actual image of the plane (if using a card) to score a hit. I'd like to try this out, but first I have a few questions for anyone who has tried using this option for game play.
1 - does it slow down the game to any great degree?
2 - do you find it more fun, less fun or no difference?
3 - When using minis is it difficult to determine hits with the ruler since the mini is on pegs?

Scott

We use the minis but have always maintained that the ruler must intersect the airframe proper- lets call it the central mass. We have done this from the very beginning and have not noticed any drop off in playability. This does make maneuver card and mini placement much more important and adds a nice feeling of tension when aiming.
Further, if the ruler only intersects the wing or tail feathers we rate that as a glancing for less damage.
It just never made sense to us to be allowed to just shoot at the card or base.
Gord

[IRM]

Isn't "Shoot at the real Thing" just intended to be used with the cards ? Remember that the WW1 minis are about twice the size of the card pictures, so will be easier to target than they should be if you play that you only need to reach part of the model.

You might also end up with situations where you can just reach a models wingtip and draw a crew or engine damage card, so that rule of Gord's where you do less damage if you don't reach the fuselage would be worth adopting (perhaps even ignore special damage results - but not damage on the card, reduced or otherwise ?) if you decide to play this way.

[Goering Ace]

Lain, funny you should mention the size difference between the mini's and the cards. I was playing the other day when I also noticed that and immediately thought of the same issues. I'm thinking that I'll either continue with targeting post to base or maybe try post to post. However, I'll likely give all the options a try and see which one we like. I'd definitely incorporate the "less damage & ignore special damage" rule when targeting certain parts of the mini. That just makes more sense.

Thanks for your input.
Scott

[Flying Officer Kyte]

You might find the thread Ruler Length in the Forum Rules Help of some passing interest.
Rob.

[LGKR]

My group does peg to base. We look at it as the base represents the airspace the plane is occupying during the movement phase (since shooting and moving would happen at the same time in real life). This keeps the game quick and allows us to "get into the action" a little more often... which is what we enjoy most in this game!

Same with our league, speed is what makes this game fun. If I wanted a game the drags I would be playing chess. :)

[Goering Ace]

Same with our league, speed is what makes this game fun. If I wanted a game the drags I would be playing chess. :)

Well put, Don. I, too, like the Col.'s explanation of the planes base representing air space. I really don't think there was a bad method in all of these posts. They all seem reasonable and fun.:)

Scott

[Galland]

We started using from peg to model...
We found this the most efective way.....

[Gord]

Hi Iian and Scott,
While it is true that the minis are quite a bit bigger than the drawings on the cards (especially the 2 seaters), I still think it makes quite a big difference to shoot at the Mini rather than the base or card.
For one, as you have noted Iian, If your arc does not cross the fuselage - say just the wings or tail feathers- we score less damage. There would be no special damage to a motor or observer etc if the shots are not into the fuselage. Even on the larger 2 seaters the fuselage is much narrower than the base and in a/c like the Dr1 or N17 are still pretty small targets. Mini and card placement becomes quite critical but these things don't add any time to the game.

With all the tinkering we do in WoW, the goal is always to keep the game fast moving and fun.

Gord


Isn't "Shoot at the real Thing" just intended to be used with the cards ? Remember that the WW1 minis are about twice the size of the card pictures, so will be easier to target than they should be if you play that you only need to reach part of the model.

You might also end up with situations where you can just reach a models wingtip and draw a crew or engine damage card, so that rule of Gord's where you do less damage if you don't reach the fuselage would be worth adopting (perhaps even ignore special damage results - but not damage on the card, reduced or otherwise ?) if you decide to play this way.

Lain, funny you should mention the size difference between the mini's and the cards. I was playing the other day when I also noticed that and immediately thought of the same issues. I'm thinking that I'll either continue with targeting post to base or maybe try post to post. However, I'll likely give all the options a try and see which one we like. I'd definitely incorporate the "less damage & ignore special damage" rule when targeting certain parts of the mini. That just makes more sense.

Thanks for your input.
Scott

[rrodrick]

I played post to post for the first time with the Portland group and thought it worked very well. It really resolves questions of shooting angles and distance very conclusively. I thought I would introduce my new flying partners with peg to base just so we had a little more shooting. Peg to base seems to me to provide a little more margin for error.

Having said that, I think any of the rules explained here would work fine and not be problematic for any pilot if they were explained at the beginning of the game.

[xRatas]

We usually play from peg to base, it is quite easy to check and we consider the plane shooting all along its manuever, so the exact allignment at the moment of actual measurement is representing a burst shot while moving anyway, so the "real" moment of shot might have happened as the enemy plane passed though the crosshair in the middle of manuever cards, we just represent that chance by allowing shots on wider area.

I do like the idea of peg to peg measuring, but I'd say it would lead to longer games because less shots will be taken, although it rewards players with better manuevering skill. Generally this would be a downside, because it makes more fun game to a new player to get some shots going, and the waiting time after elimination is shorter anyway.

Measuring to miniature is a can of worms in my opinion. The plane should be exaxtly alligned, would you reach if you could measure right on top of your peg without your own plane interfering, etc. So you only need one engineer with his micrometer in the table to make it pain for everyone (exaggerated to make point, ofcourse). With card this works much better, but still, more hits generally equals more fun, atleast with less experienced players. Ofcourse, with reasonable people and good spirit any measuring system works, as long as it is same for everyone.

So I'd say peg to peg for veteran players, peg to base for others would be best solution, if you want least mess and arguments while gaming. (Replace pegs with dots and bases with cards if you like.)

[rcboater]

For one, as you have noted Iian, If your arc does not cross the fuselage - say just the wings or tail feathers- we score less damage. There would be no special damage to a motor or observer etc if the shots are not into the fuselage. Even on the larger 2 seaters the fuselage is much narrower than the base and in a/c like the Dr1 or N17 are still pretty small targets.

I'd definitely incorporate the "less damage & ignore special damage" rule when targeting certain parts of the mini. That just makes more sense.



I think you need to think about the game as a system, and not focus on an individual element like "only being able to hit the wing tip". I just don't think it makes sense to split hairs like that, when the maneuver cards that led you to that point aren't adjustable-- you wouldn't be in the position to begin with if you could have turned 27 degrees instead of the 45 degrees the card forced you turn.

The game system as a whole is a collection of compromises and accomodations-- it is not designed to be a serious simulation. For example, the "unrealistic" movement imposed by the cards is compensated for by the generous aiming and ranging. And like someone else pointed out, there's the whole "move then shoot" mechanic, which is obviously unrealistic.

In the spirit of looking at the game as a system, I think that any rule that makes it a little easier to hit a target a good thing, as it compensates for the inherent restrictions caused by the card-based movement system.

Please don't misunderstand me-- I'm not complaining about the rules. I think the tradeoffs the system makes for playability are excellent-- it makes the game fun and playable, with enough "flavor" to keep it interesting.

Just my opinion.....

( I also posted in the "ruler length" thread-- my opinion was that the ruler should be a little longer to further compensate for the restrictions in movement.)

[Charlie3]

We usually play from peg to base, it is quite easy to check and we consider the plane shooting all along its manuever, so the exact allignment at the moment of actual measurement is representing a burst shot while moving anyway, so the "real" moment of shot might have happened as the enemy plane passed though the crosshair in the middle of manuever cards, we just represent that chance by allowing shots on wider area.

I do like the idea of peg to peg measuring, but I'd say it would lead to longer games because less shots will be taken, although it rewards players with better manuevering skill. Generally this would be a downside, because it makes more fun game to a new player to get some shots going, and the waiting time after elimination is shorter anyway.

Measuring to miniature is a can of worms in my opinion. The plane should be exaxtly alligned, would you reach if you could measure right on top of your peg without your own plane interfering, etc. So you only need one engineer with his micrometer in the table to make it pain for everyone (exaggerated to make point, ofcourse). With card this works much better, but still, more hits generally equals more fun, atleast with less experienced players. Ofcourse, with reasonable people and good spirit any measuring system works, as long as it is same for everyone.

So I'd say peg to peg for veteran players, peg to base for others would be best solution, if you want least mess and arguments while gaming. (Replace pegs with dots and bases with cards if you like.)HERE HERE!! I couldn't agree more!

[Charlie3]

I think you need to think about the game as a system, and not focus on an individual element like "only being able to hit the wing tip". I just don't think it makes sense to split hairs like that, when the maneuver cards that led you to that point aren't adjustable-- you wouldn't be in the position to begin with if you could have turned 27 degrees instead of the 45 degrees the card forced you turn.

The game system as a whole is a collection of compromises and accomodations-- it is not designed to be a serious simulation. For example, the "unrealistic" movement imposed by the cards is compensated for by the generous aiming and ranging. And like someone else pointed out, there's the whole "move then shoot" mechanic, which is obviously unrealistic.

In the spirit of looking at the game as a system, I think that any rule that makes it a little easier to hit a target a good thing, as it compensates for the inherent restrictions caused by the card-based movement system.

Please don't misunderstand me-- I'm not complaining about the rules. I think the tradeoffs the system makes for playability are excellent-- it makes the game fun and playable, with enough "flavor" to keep it interesting.

Just my opinion.....

( I also posted in the "ruler length" thread-- my opinion was that the ruler should be a little longer to further compensate for the restrictions in movement.)QUITE QUITE!! An opinion held by many of us! Flavor + Simplisity = FUN!!

I am still amazed at how flexable this game is. It allows us to change things around to suit us and doesn't seem to really screw up the game. Most systems become unplayable as soon as you start fiddling with it. Most of the House Rules I read here just seem to make the game longer but not unplayable. Me I like the short 20 min games with about 10 turns and lots of crashes...mostly me:rolleyes:

[Gord]

Hi All,
OK this is the third week in a row that we have been "Shooting at the real thing" during our Friday Night Fights. We also use "Flash" Daves 3 straight un-jamming rule and our own base Damage rule and we use the Miniatures. (Base damage is 2 pts and 2 cards for close range, 1 pt and 1 card for long range. 1 pt only for glancing shots and card only damage from crewed guns (2 seaters or bombers) ,and NO explosion card. We keep track of base damage with a D10.
- The games are fast and a lot of fun.
- Miniature placement becomes very important. If your firing arc only intersects a wing or a tail then this directly affects both damage and type of damage that can be applied.
- A glancing shot only adds one base damage and no card. The way we play is that the ruler has to pass completely through the wing or tail to add damage. If the ruler just brushes the leading edge etc then no damage occurs.
- Special Damage such as motor, crew or a rudder jam is not applicable if they are not inside the firing arc. This has important implications for the "Magic Damage" that can occur in Flight of the Giants.
- If shooting head on, then we regard it as unlikely that the rudder can be damaged and vice versa, no motor damage from the rear. Yes we know this kind of damage is possible but we are compromising here and trying to reduce some of the gamier odds effects in the Wings of War.
- Fire or smoke can only occur when the shots are into the fuselage or motor. Even when using tracer rounds, shots that did not hit the oil or fuel lines or motor were extremely unlikely to cause smoke or fire.
- Crew can only be wounded or killed when the firing arc is through the fuselage.
- In the case of 2 seaters we have decided that the crew is the only one affected from tailing aspect shots and thus, pilot only from head shots. For attacking bombers, only the crew facing the shot can be affected. No magically bending bullets. A shot into the fuselage can affect either crewmember. Crew injury is NOT kept secret as from the accounts I have read it was perfectly easy to observe whether or not the gunner or pilot were hit. What is REALLY nice is when you know the guy in back is dead then you can really pound the bugger flying the 2 seater. Revenge is SWEET. Believe me.
We have been playing this way for 3 weeks now and really feel like we are getting more out of game. Play has not bogged down, if anything we move a little quicker.
There is a more "realistic" feel to the game(whatever the heck that means) for the detail guys, the games are a lot faster and combat is a lot deadlier. One is inclined to be a lot more careful when a close approach can have such dire consequences. The 2 seaters are a bit less deadly and perhaps more realistically represented. We are much happier with the Special damages being no longer generalised or magically applied.
Wings of War is fast becoming the store favourite not the least of which reason is it's great adaptability to customized play.
Gord
Chilliwack Slot Car Palace

[Flying Officer Kyte]

That is a very comprehensive appraisal of your game play Gord. There are a lot of interesting points to take on board and digest. From your remarks,it certainly looks as if your group are happy with the outcome. Thanks for the input.
Rob.

[Gaz67]

The only comment that counts is that your group like what you've done.

[Gord]

That is a very comprehensive appraisal of your game play Gord. There are a lot of interesting points to take on board and digest. From your remarks,it certainly looks as if your group are happy with the outcome. Thanks for the input.
Rob.
and from Gaz:
The only comment that counts is that your group like what you've done.


Hi Gaz and Rob,
and thanks for the comments. BTW Gaz I quoted your rules comment ("Rules exist for me to butcher, ignore, follow or alter at my discretion as long as what we do is consistent in any one game.") to one of the guys and he wants to put it on a T-Shirt!
All the rules that we are experiment with still have to meet one very stringent requirement;
FUN?
NO FUN?
So far it has been "Big Fun" with the changes we have made and it actually makes the game quite a bit faster; even with the need to be a lot more careful about alignment and positioning.
Our players range in age from 9 to 55 (me) and as of Sunday we are up to 10 players, each with their own miniatures.
In my store I usually open one of everything as it comes out so that people can see what the games are all about. I even bought the playmats for store use. Wings of War took a little while to catch on but I would say it is now the most popular game in the store; even surpassing Zombies and Munchkins!
Not bad for a slow Summer, maybe it's just because of the air conditioning, I know it's not because of my charming personality.
Gord

[Rollout]

Usually, I play dot-to-card or peg-to-base, just as the rules describe.

I like dot-to-dot/peg-to-peg, but I played with one group that didn't like it all. In fact, they liked playing card-to-card/base-to-base instead! I'm not too hip to that, either, but will play that way if that's what the table wants.

I've been thinking about making a custom stick that is half-again longer and future games (players willing) would be dot-to-dot/peg-to-peg.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

[QUOTE=Flying Officer Kyte;21184]You might find the thread Ruler Length in the Forum Rules Help of some passing interest.

Rollout.
you may find this thread of interest if you are considering a change of ruler length..
Rob.

[Fusilier55]

Hi Scott - when I play the cards the ruler has to touch from red dot to red dot and when I play the minis, which is what I do most, then the ruler has to touch from peg to peg thus ensuring a "solid" hit.
Never played it as just hitting the card - would that mean when playing with the minis just hitting the base would do ?? That just seems ridiculous to me !
Hope this helps - Dave
Dave,

Peg to base (or dot to card) might seem ridiculous, but it is what the basic rules call for. The silliness of this is what causes many to use the various optional rules. With the peg to base version it isn't unusual to see a plane getting a shot on a plane that in reality is certainly shouldn't. This is worse when you play with some "gamers' who play the rules rather than the spirit of the rules.

Ron

[Flying Officer Kyte]

This is worse when you play with some "gamers' who play the rules rather than the spirit of the rules.

Ron[/QUOTE]

The moral of this is don't play with miserable beggars Ron. At least not a second time.
Rob.