PDA

View Full Version : A6M3 vs Spitfire Va - a fly-off in August 1943



Zoe Brain
11-13-2013, 02:42
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97ZPWEdp5H5cmViV241SlpIZGM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97ZPWEdp5H5VFdIWlNEVVoxbzg



WINGS March 20, 1945

SPITFIRE VIEW OF A ZERO

By F’Lt C.N. 'Bardie' WAWN DFC.

Anyone who has flown against a Zero in combat is impressed mainly by one thing – its amazing manoeuvrability – and Allied fighter pilots base their tactics accordingly on that factor. No sane pilot would attempt to stay and manoeuvre with a Zero in a dogfight; he relies on surprise and speed to“bowl ‘em over.”

Nearly two years ago a captured Zero and a RAAF Spitfire, flown by myself, went up together for some very interesting trials. The story could not be told until now for security reasons.

That these tactics are good is proved at a glance at the squadron scoreboards in NE and NW areas.

It is pretty hard to analyse accurately the fighting qualities of a plane when you are fighting with it – you’ve got so many other things to think about, and you rarely have an open go at one because one of your cobbers butts in to help you or one of the other fellow’s cobbers does the same for him.

For that reason I found the trials we carried out between a Spitfire and Hap very interesting and very informative. We had the whole sky to ourselves, and, what’s more, we used a fair bit of it.

When all is said and done, a fighter is only a flying gun platform, and in that respect the Zeke or Hap isn’t so hot. Its armament sounds quite impressive on paper, but it is a little misleading, because neither its cannon nor machineguns have the same hitting power as our equivalent calibres. However, there are a few pilots around who will tell you it was good enough on certain occasions.

You don’t want to run away with the idea that the Zero is manufactured in the same factories as the Made in Japan goods you used to see in the two and sixpenny stores. It isn’t. Although lightly constructed, it is strongly made and well designed.

There is a well-known story about the Kittyhawk pilot who looked around and saw a Zero chasing him. “So I dived her to 300 knots,” said the pilot, “and there he was, still following me. Then I dived her to 400 knots, looked around and he was still following me. So then I dived her up to 450 knots and looked around. He was still following me, but didn’t have any wings.” I think that is a pretty good story.

“But the Zero hasn’t got any armour plating,” everyone has either heard or said that at some time.

The Japs rightly reason that the best defence is manoeuvrability. In other words, if you can’t get a shot at another plane, you can’t shoot it down.

It was quite warm at 27,000 feet, and the nearness of that Hap – complete with markings – made me perspire anyhow. We broke off right and left, counted four, turned towards each other, and it was on.

Hap on my tail

Just to reassure myself, although I knew the inevitable result, I used the tactic we employed with success against ME109’s and FW190’s in Europe – that is, a climbing right or left hand turn at slow speed on the stall all the time.

No good. In less than twenty seconds the Hap was on my tail, turning inside me, while the Spit was ruddering and flicking and doing its best to fall out of the sky.

So down I went, straight for the earth, with the Hap after me. As my speed built up I turned on a few aileron rolls to make it tough for him.

He followed me around the first couple, but as our speed approached the 400 mark I noticed he was having trouble in following them around. So when I had gained half a turn on him I sneaked out the side and lost him temporarily.

At high speed the ailerons of a Hap are inclined to freeze, causing a loss of manoeuvrability in the rolling plane. They do in most aeroplanes, for that matter, but more so in the Hap than our best fighters.

We tried loops, one after the other, and although he could not get much of a shot at me, he could stay on my tail all right. Rolls off the top – same results. These manoeuvres are never used in dogfights, anyway, but we tried them for fun.

With the Spit on the Hap’s tail, it was quite east to stay there as long as speeds were not allowed to drop too low. If they did, then the superior manoeuvrability of the Hap at slow speeds showed up again.

Straight and level, flat out, the Hap would only run into a place, especially if the race was a long one. Whereas a Spit will take full bore for as long as your petrol will last. I think the Jap fitters would have a lot of extra work if little Yum Yum, or whatever his name may be, came in after flying around the skies for hours with the teat pressed. That is, if he got home at all.

It is quite a good motor, for all that, and the Jap pilot seems to have plenty of faith in it, because at times, he crosses large expanses of water to escort his bombers.

Japs don’t like head-on attacks in Haps or Zekes. The reasons are, firstly, their firepower is not as good as ours, and secondly, they have no protection in the shape of bullet-proof glass in the windscreen.

They are not, in my opinion, very good pilots. They don’t seem to get the best out of their machines and do silly things at times, such as leaving a perfectly good position behind an Allied fighter to skid out and up to the side to make a deflection shot out of it. That doesn’t make it any easier. Although they vary a good deal, the Army pilots in particular don’t seem to be very good shots.

I’m glad the ex-Kittyhawk pilot who flew the Hap was not flying it in New Guinea on the side of the Japs … (W/Cdr Les Jackson, DFC … Ed.)

All of which boils down to the fact that you can’t dogfight with a Hap at slow speed. No aeroplane can. Keep your speed up, though, and you have several advantages. Manoeuvrability is about equal, and you have better fire power and armour and speed.

Six second delay

The last war axiom of get above him before you attack, applies to the Hap too. We tried it with the Spitfire at 19,000 feet and the Hap at 15,000 feet. The Spitfire could dive down, have a squirt, and be back at 19,000 feet before the Hap knew what had happened. And there was nothing he could do about it. Incidentally, quite a few Jap pilots seem to suffer from what we call a six second delay. It was noticed in New Guinea on several occasions.

Zeros flying along unconcernedly with tracer from our Kittyhawks whistling around them, even under their noses. But they still continued to fly along straight and level. Suddenly they would realise all was not well and they would take the most evasive action, sometimes in the wrong direction.

Those were Army pilots. Apparently the Navy pilots are 100 per cent on those chaps, and some of them seemed to be quite good.

Summing up, the Japs have a good aeroplane in the Hap. But all round the Spitfire is better, especially at height. As for the pilots who fly them … the Japs aren’t in the race.

The Spitfire in this trial was found after landing to have a 15 degree bend in the tail section due to the excessive 'Gs' placed on it.

Marechallannes
11-13-2013, 03:27
Interesting report Zoe, with a touch of the late war years. ;)



I thought that Zero pilots often made frontal attacks versus the B17.

That was before the chin turret was installed? :confused:

Zoe Brain
11-13-2013, 03:48
The Oerlikon-designed cannon on the A6Ms were very good vs targets so big they couldn't be missed, almost useless vs fighters except at short range.
Dispersion at 200metres was over 20 angular mils. That is, shells would land in a 4 metre radius circle. With the low rate of fire, assuming perfect accuracy, the chance of even one shell hitting a 4 metre squared sized target was low. But a bomber sized target would get hit by a dozen.

Unless a fighter target was close (100m or less), both the Bf109E and A6M were effectively armed with 2 MGs. But they had lots of ammo for those.

Marechallannes
11-13-2013, 05:22
Ok, but didn't the pilots knew where their cannon shells hit?

Was is a question of spreading or descent. (you can compensate the last one by aming higher).

Dispersion = spreading?



The guns of some allied fighters (Spitfire, P51, P47, Hurricane) were so arranged that the line of fire crossed somwhere in front of the plane. Do you think that this circumstance need correction on WGS long range fire too, or can we neglect this?

Oberst Hajj
11-13-2013, 07:07
Interesting report. I wonder what kind of reviews we would have gotten from a Japanese pilot flying both planes.

Flying Officer Kyte
11-13-2013, 08:11
Well I certainly got a lot out of that thanks Zoe, and from the comments that followed it. It would be interesting to see if there are any more comparisons of that type knocking about.
Rob.

csadn
11-13-2013, 14:53
Ok, but didn't the pilots knew where their cannon shells hit?

Nope -- look at pics of cannon shells of the period; they were shotgun-level accurate (which is to say: They weren't). This is why I keep telling y'all "cannon are badly overpowered in WG2". (Worse: Most cannons were smoothbores -- the shells were not spin-stabilized, which made them even less accurate.)

I find it interesting that the account in the OP uses the reporting name "Hap", first given to the A6M Model 32 "clipped-wing Zero" (a Zero where the folding wingtips were deleted, and the hinge points faired over). Apparently, General Arnold didn't much care for the "honor" of having a Japanese acft. named for him, so the name was changed to "Hamp", and later "Zeke 32" when it was established it was only a variant of the A6M.

gully_raker
11-13-2013, 16:15
:thumbsup: Yes thanks for that Zoe!
Goes a long way to support our stance on early war Zeros of reducing their damage points compaired to the late war series 6 model.
Also think the hitting power needs some fine tuning.:cheezy:

Zoe Brain
11-13-2013, 16:37
Was is a question of spreading or descent. (you can compensate the last one by aming higher).

Dispersion = spreading?
Yes, exactly. The 151 cannon was far superior here. That had similar ballistics to the 7.92mm MG.


A note about cannon. Let's look at the Bf109E again.

Target - 6 metre by 2 metre rectangle
Crossing speed 360 kph = 100 m/sec

7.92mm mv 865 m/sec, dropping by 50 m/sec per 100m travelled - end speed 565 m/sec. Av speed 715 m/sec, TOF 0.41 sec
20mm mv 600 m/sec, dropping by 50 m/sec per 100m travelled - end speed 450 m/sec. Av speed 525 m/sec TOF 0.57 sec

Drop (10 m/sec/sec)
0.8m
1.2m

2 bullets fired at same time at centre of target, deflector sights set for 7.92mm.
MG - target travels 41 metres - hits centre, must be aimed 0.8m high and 38m in front of nose.
Cannon - target travels 57 metres - will be 0.4m below centerline, and 13m behind rear of target (actually only 0.2m below due to elevation - see below).

Beyond about 300m, the cannon goes into transonic regime - tumbles. Fuse unlikely to function, dispersion +/- 5m per 100m

Dispersion - CEP of 7.92mm at 200m was "a couple of cm". 50% of shots would land within a 4cm circle.
CEP of 20mm FF was about 20cm at 200m. 50% of shots would land in a 40cm diameter circle.

Cannon would normally be set to converge at 200m - so would be about 20cm high at 100m, 20cm low at 300m relative to 7.92mm

Vs a fighter-sized target from the rear, the 20mm FF would get perhaps 50% of shots in a 1m x 1m rectangle at 200m. The 7.92mm would get 100% of shots within the 10cm x 10cm centre of that 1m x 1m target. The low rate of fire of the FF made hitting nearly impossible in dogfights. Of course one hit would wreck most aircraft, and 2 or more likely down it.

I got better figures for the FF dispersion after that - it was well over twice what I thought it was. CEP more like a 2 metres than 40cm.

The Hispano-Suiza, 151, and similar weapons were more like the .50 cal browning in terms of drop and time of flight, though still dispersion was 10 mils - at 200 metres, the bullet would be anywhere within 2 metres of the aim point. But at least not arriving a tenth of a second after the MG rounds, when a crossing target had moved another 10 metres.

Basically, at combat ranges, unless behind or in front of the target, a Bf109E could hit with cannon, or mgs, but not both. Unless the target was big.
And from in front, the rate of fire was so low, and time of closing so short, chances of a hit were, if not negligible, low vs a fighter sized target.

If we take the length of a ruler as being about 300-400 metres then it works well.


For fighter-versus-fighter combat, I thought the Spitfire was better armed than the Me 109. The cannon fitted to the 109 were not much use against enemy fighters, and the machine guns on top of the engine often suffered stoppages. The cannon were good if they hit; but their rate of fire was very low. The cannon had greater range than the machine guns. But we were always told that in a dogfight one could not hope to hit anything at ranges greater than 50 metres, it was necessary to close in to short range.
Oblt Hans Schmoller-Haldy of JG 54 quoted in Alfred Price, The Hardest Day, (Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1980), p 16-17

Marechallannes
11-14-2013, 22:09
Can't speak for Japanese pilots in detail, but with this information about German MG/Cannon armament I'm in the opinion, that the Luftwaffe pilots knew to handle their planes very well and compensated this ballistic disadvantages.

The general try to make it more authentic fot the armament is ok.

But how to transfer the many other authentic & historical facts in the game. Pilot abilities, tactics, modifications, etc. that caused

- balanced fighter loss in the Battle of Britain.
- good results of the Luftwaffe in the Battle over France 1941 & 1942 with the "home field advantage". ;)
- good results of JG 27 in North Africa.

Like Nexus/Ares did it with the hitpoints of the Zero (no self sealing tank), they did it with the firepower, too.

csadn
11-15-2013, 14:46
- balanced fighter loss in the Battle of Britain.
- good results of the Luftwaffe in the Battle over France 1941 & 1942 with the "home field advantage". ;)
- good results of JG 27 in North Africa.

Battle of Britain: The problem here is: The important factors are all "off-board" -- for ex.: When a British pilot was shot down, chances were he was back with his squadron by morning; a German pilot was, for all practical purposes, out of the war. Moreover: Britain outproduced Germany by a wide margin; the Germans would never shoot down enough aircraft to have air superiority (killing pilots and crews, OTOH...). BoB is a great game for Logistics fans; for combat fans, not really.

Battle over France, and North Africa: Mostly this was Germans shooting down bombers and fighter-bombers, which weren't exactly renowned for their ability to dodge; said lack of maneuverability made it a bit easier to use cannons on them. (Yes, this is a way of saying: "It's not the size which matters; it's how one uses it." >:) )

Marechallannes
11-17-2013, 03:38
...

Battle over France, and North Africa: Mostly this was Germans shooting down bombers and fighter-bombers, which weren't exactly renowned for their ability to dodge; said lack of maneuverability made it a bit easier to use cannons on them. (Yes, this is a way of saying: "It's not the size which matters; it's how one uses it." >:) )

So the Allies mostly operated "unescorted" in France & North Africa? ;)

Maybe fighter-bombers & bombers were the most numbers in loss, but this counts for the Luftwaffe, too.

We need some fighter - fighter stats- (Spitfire/Hurricane/P40 vs. Fw190/Bf.109)

grumpybear
11-17-2013, 04:16
A good read thanks Zoe

Zoe Brain
11-17-2013, 04:47
We need some fighter - fighter stats- (Spitfire/Hurricane/P40 vs. Fw190/Bf.109)

Like this?
Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K : A Performance Comparison
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

This?
Spitfire Mk. I versus Me 109 E : A Performance Comparison
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Something more like this - a Hurricane can turn 5 circles to a 109E's 4
www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/hurricane-109.pdf

There's a treasure-trove of such things at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

Rabbit 3
11-18-2013, 03:16
Interesting report Zoe, with a touch of the late war years. ;)



I thought that Zero pilots often made frontal attacks versus the B17.

That was before the chin turret was installed? :confused:
Very much so.
Most B-17 use in the Pacific was earlier in the war as the type was generally allocated to the European theatre.
So against the Japanese we`re mainly talking about B-17E`s, some of which are early production models with the Bendix belly turret rather than the more familiar Sperry ball turret and some `small tail` B-17D`s in use to start with.
I think a few `F`s` did make it to the Pacific but the B-17`s were later replaced by various B-24 models until the B-29 arrived.

fast.git
12-03-2013, 20:41
Apologies for kicking up an old thread... but very cool. Thanks.