OTT Rules Clarifications

[7eat51]

I was just reading a post on the Immelmann sequence, and I have a question about playing it in OTT. I am going to fly the first mission within the next few days, so any help is most appreciated.

The thread stated that one could do the following sequence:
Straight, Immelmann, Straight, Immelmann

as opposed to:
Straight, Immelmann, Straight, Straight, Immelmann

Basically, one could forgo the second straight between Immelmanns. Any advice on how we should play this in OTT? Thanks.

Original thread: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?14073-Immelman-Turns-question

[tikkifriend]

OOh thats a tricky one . In my humble opinion you need the straight after the straight to get your plane and pilot lined up for the next Immel, otherwise you are effectivly doing a series of loops with turns at the apex. What does everyone else feel .:)
From talking to Mike (old guy 59) he has a wealth of knowledge re aircraft and their abilities/limitations :thumbsup: I await his posting:thumbsup:

[MoonSylver]

IIRC Angillio has clarified this one in the past? But yes, the straight after Immelman #1 can be used as the 1st straight of Immelman #2. :thumbsup:

[flash]

Rob is correct. Straight, Immelmann, Straight, Immelmann is allowed Eric & therefore can be played in OTT.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Sorry chaps. I stand corrected. I thought I'd read somewhere that this was not allowed.
Rob.

[7eat51]

Having played several games now, I feel the one straight in between Immelmanns is pretty powerful, and I would want to ensure it does not unnecessairly disadvantage or lessen the advantage of opponents that have a tighter turn radius, unless it is ethnically realistic. I am learning how the different planes have given strengths and weaknesses. The S,I,S,I pattern would definitely be a strength, almost like an Ace ability.

We had a discussion about altitude as used by Germans, and this raises another issue. If Germans used altitude and the sun as a tactical advantage, and since WGF does not have a sun rule, so to speak, does the one straight between Immelmanns hurt the Germans if used by Allied planes? It seems that the Germans already have had a slight handicap handed to them. Would this S,I,S,I pattern provide another hit on the head?

I will follow whatever rules you folks agree on. I do not know enough technically about planes to render an informed opinion. If I don't read anything to change my mind before tomorrow, I will go with the S,I,S,I pattern for the first run. After all, it is about having fun, no?

I am reading a bio on Immelmann right now. If anything comes from it, I will post accordingly.

[fast.git]

Sorry chaps. I stand corrected. I thought I'd read somewhere that this was not allowed.
Rob.
I was under this impression as well.


Having played several games now, I feel the one straight in between Immelmanns is pretty powerful, and I would want to ensure it does not unnecessairly disadvantage or lessen the advantage of opponents that have a tighter turn radius, unless it is ethnically realistic. I am learning how the different planes have given strengths and weaknesses. The S,I,S,I pattern would definitely be a strength, almost like an Ace ability.

We had a discussion about altitude as used by Germans, and this raises another issue. If Germans used altitude and the sun as a tactical advantage, and since WGF does not have a sun rule, so to speak, does the one straight between Immelmanns hurt the Germans if used by Allied planes? It seems that the Germans already have had a slight handicap handed to them. Would this S,I,S,I pattern provide another hit on the head?
I share your concerns. "Paired" reversals seem to be much faster that turning... and, although predictable, not as predictable as I once thought. Not sure about this one...
:confused::hmm:

[tikkifriend]

It does make the Immel an almost ace ability if you allow S I S I S. Not that that is a bad thing.;)
Perhaps we need a concensus before the next mission is played ie all players vote for it in or out by PM ing me and I post the results in the optional rules Sticky :thankyou:

[7eat51]

In the original post, Jan (Watchdog) pointed out the following possible sequence: SI/SIS/IS

That pushes toward Ace ability even more.

I am open to a vote unless there is a compelling technical reason either way.

[fast.git]

In the original post, Jan (Watchdog) pointed out the following possible sequence: SI/SIS/IS.

So... according to that... it's possible to reverse 5 times in 3 turns. That seems... excessive.

It also feels like it devalues Acrobatic Pilot.

[MoonSylver]

There are other pilots much more experienced than I on here, so maybe I'm way off on this, but I haven't found the ability to S/I/S/I to be any more powerful/useful than any other combo. Really, there have only been select situations where I HAVE used it. (And it was GREAT when the opportune moment DID present itself...)

Just purely IMO, but often I am trying to maneuver into a position where I can shoot at my target, but he can't shoot at me. Often with immelman's reversing course means going head on, thus taking return fire. Plus rely on the tactic too much & you become predictable...:hmm:

I'm open to all other suggestions & opinions, but I don't have a problem with S/I/S/I, unless someone points out something I'm missing that would cause me to rethink things. :)

[tikkifriend]

So... according to that... it's possible to reverse 5 times in 3 turns. That seems... excessive.

It also feels like it devalues Acrobatic Pilot.

I agree Chris

[Archidamus]

I thought that Straight - Immelmann - Straight - Immelmann - Straight was allowed - but it is still subject to not being able to climb twice in one three card sequence / play two Immelmanns in one three card sequence (no deck has two Immelmann cards)! So over three turns you could still only play 3 Immelmanns, but it could be SIS/ISS/ISx

[flash]

So... according to that... it's possible to reverse 5 times in 3 turns. That seems... excessive.

It also feels like it devalues Acrobatic Pilot.

Well to start with it is three reversals in three turns not five - it is also a slight misquote as Jan was pointing out that is the maximum you could do like that before you had to add in another card and break the chain. I think Brians just said the same.
eg SI / SIS / IS S /ISS / ISS/ Not forgetting you can do SIS every turn if you wish anyway so the frequency is not affected just the speed at which some can be done. I had an AI do three on the trot in Mission 1 !

I also don't see that this devalues Acrobatic Pilot as this skill allows you to not do a straight after an Immi which would be really useful in other ways.

If you have a vote then it would be as a 'house rule' as this is how we should be playing it as per the rules and Andreas clarification made some time ago.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Could someone post Andrea's clarification please. If that is the official line then that is what we should follow. Or have a vote to create an in house (ie in OTT) rule to change this.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I'm happy to go along with Dicta Angiolillo (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/member.php?115-Angiolillo).
Rob.

[fast.git]

So... according to that... it's possible to reverse 5 times in 3 turns. That seems... excessive.

It also feels like it devalues Acrobatic Pilot.

Right. My mistake... forgot about the whole 1-reversal-in-the-deck thing. Now that my idiocy has been, yet again confirmed, I respectfully withdraw from consideration my concerns. I'm more than happy to play by the official rules.

Thanks for the clarification!

Chris

[flash]

I nominate you Neil - good luck ! ;)

The basis of the conclusion was that the rules say a straight has to be played before and after an immi not that 3 cards must form the move.

[7eat51]

Is there any technical/structural reason for requiring a second straight before a second Immelmann, for requiring SISSIS as opposed to SISIS? Given that there is an Ace ability that allows a non-straight move to be used in conjunction with and Immelmann, are the straights mores about pilot ability than plane ability? Knowing this would settle the matter for me, and help me understand why the rules are written in a given way, i.e. the logic behind them.

Since it appears that the rules allow SISIS, I will do so when flying the first mission today. As for the second mission, I will wait to see where we have landed.

[David Manley]

I'm guessing that any reasoning would be based on the sheer amount of time it would take to initiate, execute and complete the manoeuvre before being able to pull up into the second one. The more I think about it the more I think SIS/SIS is the more technically correct option. Still, maybe Andrea will chime in at some point and put us all out of our collective misery :D

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Took this from another thread.

Ciao!
I just met Andrea at the Pisa tournament, and asked him about loop.
He simply explained that by the rules one can actually make a loop by doing two Immelmann one after the other, like this:
straight - immelmann - straight - immelmann - straight.
Since the maneuver is quite complex, it's just right it should require more than three cards.
I guess this puts an end to the problem

Go to rules help and look for this thread on page 1. Zoe has done the graphics with cards for each of the 'immelman' card manouevres.

Can you Climb or Immelmann and Dive or Spit-S in the same Turn?
Started by Bruce, 08-17-2011 21:26

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Well done Neil. That ties it up then. i'm rather miffed that I have been doing it wrong for five years. Think of all the extra hits I could have had in that time.:lol:
Rob.

[flash]

Especially as, if I recall correctly, you had a part of that particular discussion Rob ! :lol:

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Yes Dave, but I have also eaten a lot of meals cooked in aluminium pans.:lol:
I had a feeling that something had been said on the subject before, but just could not recall what was said or what its title was to do a search for it.
Thanks for reminding me.:salute:
Rob.

[7eat51]

Conceptually, I am in agreement with David, based on the LITTLE I actually know. However, if the designer says SISIS is fine, I will go with that during OTT until directed otherwise.


Especially as, if I recall correctly, you had a part of that particular discussion Rob ! :lol:

In Rob's defense, I seldom can recall … Wait, why exactly am I here?

[fast.git]

Well done Neil. That ties it up then. i'm rather miffed that I have been doing it wrong for five years. Think of all the extra hits I could have had in that time.:lol:
Rob.

Well then. Guess I ought to start playing this the correct way. Thanks to everyone who had a part in clearing this (my confusion) up.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Hey guys I'm just posting what I found in one part of the forum, RULES HELP, there may be more discusion and a definitive answer from Andrea elsewhere, however Zoe's card diagrams do give a better visualisation of the manouevres.

[flash]

Yes Dave, but I have also eaten a lot of meals cooked in aluminium pans.:lol:
I had a feeling that something had been said on the subject before, but just could not recall what was said or what its title was to do a search for it.
Thanks for reminding me.:salute:
Rob.

Know what you mean - it cropped up in a thread about something else, as these things usually do, but buggered if I can remember what it was now - must've been over two years ago. It will come to me eventually ;)

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Cheers for the vote Dave, 2 years is a lot of threads to pursue even to get what I found....:thumbsup: I'm off for :pint: or two, I need it.


Know what you mean - it cropped up in a thread about something else, as these things usually do, but buggered if I can remember what it was now - must've been over two years ago. It will come to me eventually ;)

[flash]

Following discussion on another thread I have clarified the optional rudder damage rule in the sticky to read:

"Rudder Jams – Play the Rudder Jam damage as normal, ie no move in that direction for 1 game turn, then remove one L or R turn as appropriate from the manoeuvre deck for the rest of the game (and a one appropriate sharp turn if aircraft has one); damage is cumulative. This is a house rule but it adds a permanence to the damage and is representing reduced rudder efficiency.
Clarification: Sideslips are not counted as turns for removal in this rule; Only 1 turn card removed per damage unless the aircraft has an appropriate sharp turn then it is 2 turn cards, one long, one sharp."

Quick explanation: This is an extension of the official rule, not a replacement. So the rudder is jammed in the direction(s) shown by the damage card(s) for the next game turn and it cannot move in the direction(s) shown. The pilot then frees the rudder jam but the damage has reduced its efficiency and this is represented by removal of one long turn, of the appropriate direction, per damage card. If the aircraft has a sharp turn capability (eg Camel, Dr1) then one of these cards, of the appropriate direction, is also removed. For the purposes of this rule a sideslip is not counted as a turn.

eg: A Camel receives a LRD & RRD card in the same turn. The next turn its rudder is jammed and it cannot move left or right. For the LRD card a long left turn is removed, for the RRD a long right turn and a sharp right turn are removed. So 3 cards removed in total.

Thought I would post it here as people more likely to read it ! Cheers Dave :pint:

[fast.git]

Clarification: Sideslips are not counted as turns for removal in this rule; Only 1 turn card removed per damage unless the aircraft has an appropriate sharp turn then it is 2 turn cards, one long, one sharp."

Ok. Think I've got it now... pleased as punch to discover that the Dr.1 won't lose its "steep" sideslip maneuver due to rudder damage. :) Same goes for the SE5a, I would presume. Cool.

Thanks for the clarification... I'll make certain to incorporate this rule correctly for my next session.

[7eat51]

Following discussion on another thread I have clarified the optional rudder damage rule in the sticky to read:

"Rudder Jams – Play the Rudder Jam damage as normal, ie no move in that direction for 1 game turn, then remove one L or R turn as appropriate from the manoeuvre deck for the rest of the game (and a one appropriate sharp turn if aircraft has one); damage is cumulative. This is a house rule but it adds a permanence to the damage and is representing reduced rudder efficiency.
Clarification: Sideslips are not counted as turns for removal in this rule; Only 1 turn card removed per damage unless the aircraft has an appropriate sharp turn then it is 2 turn cards, one long, one sharp."

Quick explanation: This is an extension of the official rule, not a replacement. So the rudder is jammed in the direction(s) shown by the damage card(s) for the next game turn and it cannot move in the direction(s) shown. The pilot then frees the rudder jam but the damage has reduced its efficiency and this is represented by removal of one long turn, of the appropriate direction, per damage card. If the aircraft has a sharp turn capability (eg Camel, Dr1) then one of these cards, of the appropriate direction, is also removed. For the purposes of this rule a sideslip is not counted as a turn.

eg: A Camel receives a LRD & RRD card in the same turn. The next turn its rudder is jammed and it cannot move left or right. For the LRD card a long left turn is removed, for the RRD a long right turn and a sharp right turn are removed. So 3 cards removed in total.

Thought I would post it here as people more likely to read it ! Cheers Dave :pint:

Very helpful clarification and very informative example with the Camel.

[tikkifriend]

Well dont take the hump if it all goes wrong

[7eat51]

I am preparing to fly April's missions, and I have a question concerning Part 2.

As I am reading some of the AARs, it seems that planes often follow each other on bombing runs. If we are to play the two other planes via AI, are there modifications for flying in formation? Are there AI modifications for bombing runs?

Thanks.

[flash]

As far as I know the answer is no, and no ! You have to decide when to drop the bombs.
I flew all my bombers as I've found in the past that they can do strange things when AI controlled and can hit sweet fanny adams unless you are lucky, the target is big, or, you cheat a bit ! With 2 AI scouts, the AAA & AAMG (plus altitude if you use that too) you will have enough on your plate as it is but your call. :erk:

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I think a little poetic licence may be called for unless you use the K or L move sheet that has something to do with targets on.


I am preparing to fly April's missions, and I have a question concerning Part 2.

As I am reading some of the AARs, it seems that planes often follow each other on bombing runs. If we are to play the two other planes via AI, are there modifications for flying in formation? Are there AI modifications for bombing runs?

Thanks.