Immelman Turns question

[skywatcher]

again as a new player to the game, when performing the Immelman turn do you play the three cards as one in each phase section, or do you play all three cards in a phase as a complete manouver

[Watchdog]

Each phase is one card. Immelmann's turn takes three cards, therefore, it takes three phases (a full turn's length) to perform.

You can, however, spread it over among two turns, that is, if you end your turn with a straight, you may or may not start the next turn with an Immelmann's turn, followed by a straight, or, if you end your turn with an Immelmann's turn, you must plan a straight as the first manoeuvre of the next turn.

[HTRAINo]

You can spread the maneuvers through 2 complete turns.

Example 1; Play a straight, immelman, straight in one full turn.
Example 2; Play a right slip, left turn, straight in one turn... next turn, play immelman, straight, tight right turn.

As you ended Example 2 on a straight (use a marker chit to remind you if you prefer), you may still execute the immelman sequence. There are other examples I could go into, but this is probably enough for now.

Also, if you plan on using altitude rules... you will also gain 1 climb counter during the immelman turn sequence.

[skywatcher]

Many thanks gents that clears it up. We have been playing that way, but we thought we might not be right.
Cheers, Skywatcher

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

A querey on this one then, if you are forced to play the stall card due to engine damage does this mean you cannot use the immelman card?

[Пилот]

You can, but with some difficulties. It is not easy to plan immelman with mandatory stall.

[HTRAINo]

You may do a split-s and lose a climb counter. Essentially an immelman.

[Watchdog]

A querey on this one then, if you are forced to play the stall card due to engine damage does this mean you cannot use the immelman card?

You can, but you will need two turns to perform that.

Turn 1:
1. stall
2. straight
3. Immelmann

Turn 2
1. straight
then one of the remaining manoeuvres of turn 2 must be a stall.

[Nightbomber]

Speaking of Immelmann as a turn consisting of three specific maneuvers, it's good to point out the tactical value of straight maneuver as the LAST maneuver of a plane's turn. Playing this card as this gives player two options for the next turn (Immelmann or not), taking into account where the other planes are. On the other hand ending a turn with the Immelmann card is an obvious sign where you will place your kite in the next phase :eek: (unless you are an ace;) with a special ability).


BTW: obviously good point and piece of advice for new pilots, Jan. :thumbsup:

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Just about covered everything there chaps, except the fact that you can't go straight, Immelmann, straight, and then use that straight to initiate your next Immelmann. There must be another straight.
Rob.

[Watchdog]

Just about covered everything there chaps, except the fact that you can't go straight, Immelmann, straight, and then use that straight to initiate your next Immelmann. There must be another straight.
Rob.

Are you sure about this, Rob?

Is this sequence illegal, then?

Turn 1
1. straight
2. Immelmann
3. straight

Turn 2
1. Immelmann
2. straight

If so, why is it illegal?:confused:

[Nightbomber]

Are you sure about this, Rob?

Is this sequence illegal, then?

Turn 1
1. straight
2. Immelmann
3. straight

Turn 2
1. Immelmann
2. straight

If so, why is it illegal?:confused:

I have a bad feeling about this, Jan.
Rob is right, IMHO. Please note that a COMPLETE Immelmann maneuver consists of THREE manouver cards played in a row. If you play your way, one of the THREE should be common :erk:

[flash]

Just about covered everything there chaps, except the fact that you can't go straight, Immelmann, straight, and then use that straight to initiate your next Immelmann. There must be another straight.
Rob.

I used to think that Rob but following discussion here involving Andrea a couple of years ago found I was playing it wrongly. Jans example is correct.
Andrzej - Rules just say a straight has to be played before and after an immi not that 3 cards must form part of the move. :)

[Nightbomber]

Interesting thread! Thanks for your input Dave. I did not know the discussion. It could be interesting to know how the others play.

[Dan-Sam]

DoubleImmelman can be preety tricky. We have used it before we met Watchdog yet. I am glad we are playing in Andreas right way :) So, do not forget to check your six after enemy's first Immelman maneuvre, Andrzej ;)

[7eat51]

If one can play: S,I,S,I as opposed to S,I,S,S,I then this would have great effect on how we play. It can also be an interesting way to climb.

[AlgyLacey]

The SISIS should not IMHO gain 2 climb counters - WWI aircraft just wouldn't have the power to do two in a row. The second should surely be a split S and lose a counter - becoming a loop?

[phililphall]

Pesonally I wouldn't allow altitude gain with the "Immelman" as the WWI Immelman was what we now call a Hammerhead stall. I would allow any legal card to be played following the Immelman card.

[flash]

In WW1 we are talking this move rather than a half loop which is the modern understanding of it .
81658

As you can see it begins and ends pretty much at the same height.

Eric is right it, SISIS does have quite a dramatic affect - mostly if you are on the receiving end !
Personally I preferred SISSIS myself. ;)

[7eat51]

I started a thread in OTT to see how folks want this handled in the solo campaign Final Months. The current status is SISIS. I must admit, I am a bit reluctant. I am hoping for those of you with technical knowledge to help clarify.

Dave, this drawing is interesting in thinking through altitude. Why do you think the rules include an altitude adjustment?

[AlgyLacey]

Because the Immelmann as practiced today is what used to be called a half loop with a roll off the top (think of a C shape where the aircraft starts at the bottom and curves upward gaining altitude.)

The split s, is the reverse with a half roll, a pull backward on the stick and a half loop downward.

The WWII rules IIRC (I've only ever played it once) separated the two with long in short out or short in long out.

[Watchdog]

Thinking about it you can actually do an SI/SIS/IS sequence, but not any more, since you only have one Immelmann's turn in your manoeuvre deck.

[7eat51]

Thinking about it you can actually do an SI/SIS/IS sequence, but not any more, since you only have one Immelmann's turn in your manoeuvre deck.

Greetings Jan,

I am not sure I follow you. I think you can do what you propose here because each turn uses only 1 Immelmann.

[Watchdog]

Greetings Jan,

I am not sure I follow you. I think you can do what you propose here because each turn uses only 1 Immelmann.

Indeed you can Eric. The sequence of SI/SIS/IS is the most you can do in a row. That is three turns, each with an Immelmann's turn. You cannot do any more in a row, since there is only one Immelmann's turn card in a deck. What I try to emphasize is, that you cannot engage in an endless sequence of every other manoeuvre being an Immelmann's turn. You can only do three such Immelmann's turns in a row.

[7eat51]

Indeed you can Eric. The sequence of SI/SIS/IS is the most you can do in a row. That is three turns, each with an Immelmann's turn. You cannot do any more in a row, since there is only one Immelmann's turn card in a deck. What I try to emphasize is, that you cannot engage in an endless sequence of every other manoeuvre being an Immelmann's turn. You can only do three such Immelmann's turns in a row.

Now I get it. Thanks.

I am intrigued to see what difference this would make. I think one of the trickiest results is that the other player cannot assume anything after the second straight. What I mean is this: if I do an Immelmann, my opponent knows I will follow up with a straight. As we have been playing, my opponent would know I must do another straight before executing another Immelmann. Now, once I do the straight coming off an Immelmann, my opponent has to be prepared for an immediate Immelmann again. I think this is where some real differences will show up in how my opponent will think about my moves.

[greenalfonzo]

Was there any loss of speed when coming out of an Immelman? I always assumed there would be immediately following the turn, and that that loss of speed was the reason a second straight would have to be played before having the power to go up through the half loop again.

[Zoe Brain]

This was addressed in some optional rules for Immelmans.
Basically 3 types - Halfloop Up, Halfloop Down(Split S), Immelman(Hammerhead)

Immelmans and Other Reversals
1. Half-loop: Straight, Reversal+Gain Climb Counter, Stall
2. Split-S : Stall, Reversal+Lose Climb Counter, Straight
3. Immelman : Straight, Reversal, Straight

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73241&d=1359513160

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73287&d=1359546897

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73240&d=1359513157

Although this is a "house rule", Andrea has said that he approves of it, and if there's another edition of WGF, it could be in it. It retains the current Split S rules, but splits the current Immelman into a maneuver that gains a climb counter on the reversal (forcing a stall as the next card), or one that does not (forcing a straight as the next card)

You could also add
4. Stall Turn (Acrobatic Ace only) Straight, Reversal, any non-steep left or right arrow
5. Power Dive: Stall, Reversal+Lose Climb Counter, Dive+Lose level.


http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73276&d=1359518337
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73277&d=1359518340

[Willi Von Klugermann]

Nice illustration Zoe.

[fast.git]

Very cool. Thanks for sharing!

[7eat51]

Great stuff Zoe. Helps my understanding of possible maneuvers quite nicely. Thanks.

[Пилот]

Zoe,
great explanation. Thanks!

Maybe this would be the right place to ask... I red about Immelman turn during WW1. Seems to me that true maneuver would be S-I-S, but without gaining or loosing altitude. And WW1 rules give you chance to change altitude after it.

Also, what "can't shoot after Immelman" means? Can't shoot after:
a)both second and third cards, or
b) after second card ("I" card itself) only.

(I play b) option)

[MoonSylver]

Zoe,
great explanation. Thanks!

Maybe this would be the right place to ask... I red about Immelman turn during WW1. Seems to me that true maneuver would be S-I-S, but without gaining or loosing altitude. And WW1 rules give you chance to change altitude after it.

Also, what "can't shoot after Immelman" means? Can't shoot after:
a)both second and third cards, or
b) after second card ("I" card itself) only.

(I play b) option)

Option B is correct. :)

[AlgyLacey]

.

Also, what "can't shoot after Immelman" means? Can't shoot after:
a)both second and third cards, or
b) after second card ("I" card itself) only.


Where does it say that? Is this a RAP thing? - or are you referring to the rear gunner in Immelmann capable a/c must spend time hanging on and changing trousers due to not being strapped in rule?

[Пилот]

@MonSylver
Thanks! I thought so, but it's good to check.


@AlgyLacey
I had Wounded Pilot in mind. Says can't shoot after Immelman.

[phililphall]

Here's how I was taught to do the Immelmann many many years ago. PUt the nose down a bit to gain speed. Pull up to near vertical, about 80*. Just before the stall kick the rudder to the right or left depending on which direction you want to go. On the down side you can roll your wings to take you in any direction you like or continue in the reverse course. You don't really reach zero airspeed. Particularly important with WWI a/c as many wouldn't recover from a stall induced spin.

[STEPHEN NAPIER]

The cards used with the movement picture is the best explaination of the movement..thanks

[Zoe Brain]

Glad to be of service.

[Alfredt Kranfel]

Evenin' all,
My group had a question about the Immelman card of the 3-card Immelman / Split S maneuvers. Is this card considered a "Steep" maneuver, a "Normal" maneuver or something else?
The question was brought up conserning the Ace abilities "Acrobat" and "Daredevil". Can one play steep maneuvers directly after the Immelman card?

Thanks for any enlightenment!

[flash]

Evenin' all, My group had a question about the Immelman card of the 3-card Immelman / Split S maneuvers. Is this card considered a "Steep" maneuver, a "Normal" maneuver or something else? The question was brought up conserning the Ace abilities "Acrobat" and "Daredevil". Can one play steep maneuvers directly after the Immelman card? Thanks for any enlightenment!

1. Acrobatic Pilot:
This pilot may perform a non-straight manoeuvre after an lmmelmann or a Split-S. When you use this skill, take five recovery counters.
Non straight being a turn or side-slip not a steep

2. Daredevil:
This pilot may perform two steep maneuvers in succession. When you execute the second steep manoeuvre, take four recovery counters.
The Immelmann card is not a steep and not marked as one but is special as you have to play a straight before and after it unless you have ace skills that say otherwise ! ;)