the warrior code; an act of chivalry forms a bond

[diceslinger]

Just saw this article. Very moving story about a man who showed mercy by not shooting down a lame B-17. I was very keen on the discussion of chivalry and the warrior code. Keeping your life is paramount in war, but keeping your humanity is by far more important. My hats off to both of these gentlemen, I am glad that they found their place and their peace after the war.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/09/living/higher-call-military-chivalry/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

[Dan-Sam]

Very interesting story, thank you for it.

[ptownhiker]

That is a very moving story. The beginning description of the Distinguished Warfare Medal got me asking the question, "are medals designed to be awarded for an accomplishment, a personal risk involved, or a combination of both?". In the past, I had only thought of the accomplishment. The article's description of 17,000 petitioners protesting the medal for drone operators and cyber warriors (is that even a phrase?), got me thinking about the recognition of personal risk. I imagine that many new technologies have challenged these questions. I am reminded of an episode of MASH that touched on this when a bomber pilot who was flying his missions from Alaska crashed nearby. The characters had a sense of disapproval that the pilot was able to drop his bombs without seeing the enemy and be home in time to see his family.

[7eat51]

My Father sheared this story with me several years ago; one of his friends was a crew member in that bomber group.

I saw the book recently on amazon and couldn't believe it. It is now on my reading shortlist. I hope to provide a review fairly soon, or to engage in more conversation if someone else does. Unfortunately, we don't often hear stories like this.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0425252868/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Thanks for sharing the link.

[Attila57]

Nice article. A book to read (I hope it will be translated ASAP in italian)

Attilio

[Nightbomber]

Thanks for the link, Shawn. A very interesting article.

[gully_raker]

Thanks Shawn!
A wonderful story.:thumbsup:

[itchy]

A fantastic story thanks for the link.

[AlgyLacey]

. The article's description of 17,000 petitioners protesting the medal for drone operators and cyber warriors (is that even a phrase?), got me thinking about the recognition of personal risk. .

Risk is as risk does. Servicemen and women don't just put their physical health on the line- but their mental health too.
Pity the man who launches a missile that kills a child, pity the man who sees the grainy video of a wounded man crawling away from the crater his Hellfire or Brimstone missile just made every time he closes his eyes and tries to sleep. Pity the man who shoots up friendlies in a Blue-On-Blue whether the misidentification took place with a Mk1 eyeball or a TV camera and monitor a hundred miles away.
Wilfred Owen says it better than me.

The Chances

I mind as 'ow the night afore that show
Us five got talking, — we was in the know,
"Over the top to-morrer; boys, we're for it,
First wave we are, first ruddy wave; that's tore it."
"Ah well," says Jimmy, — an' 'e's seen some scrappin' —
"There ain't more nor five things as can 'appen;
Ye get knocked out; else wounded — bad or cushy;
Scuppered; or nowt except yer feeling mushy."
One of us got the knock-out, blown to chops.
T'other was hurt, like, losin' both 'is props.
An' one, to use the word of 'ypocrites,
'Ad the misfortoon to be took by Fritz.
Now me, I wasn't scratched, praise God Almighty
(Though next time please I'll thank 'im for a blighty),
But poor young Jim, 'e's livin' an' 'e's not;
'E reckoned 'e'd five chances, an' 'e's 'ad;
'E's wounded, killed, and pris'ner, all the lot —
The ruddy lot all rolled in one. Jim's mad.

(No smileys, even a salute - I'm not in the mood for levity)

[ptownhiker]

Risk is as risk does. Servicemen and women don't just put their physical health on the line- but their mental health too.
Pity the man who launches a missile that kills a child, pity the man who sees the grainy video of a wounded man crawling away from the crater his Hellfire or Brimstone missile just made every time he closes his eyes and tries to sleep. Pity the man who shoots up friendlies in a Blue-On-Blue whether the misidentification took place with a Mk1 eyeball or a TV camera and monitor a hundred miles away.
Wilfred Owen says it better than me.

The Chances

I mind as 'ow the night afore that show
Us five got talking, — we was in the know,
"Over the top to-morrer; boys, we're for it,
First wave we are, first ruddy wave; that's tore it."
"Ah well," says Jimmy, — an' 'e's seen some scrappin' —
"There ain't more nor five things as can 'appen;
Ye get knocked out; else wounded — bad or cushy;
Scuppered; or nowt except yer feeling mushy."
One of us got the knock-out, blown to chops.
T'other was hurt, like, losin' both 'is props.
An' one, to use the word of 'ypocrites,
'Ad the misfortoon to be took by Fritz.
Now me, I wasn't scratched, praise God Almighty
(Though next time please I'll thank 'im for a blighty),
But poor young Jim, 'e's livin' an' 'e's not;
'E reckoned 'e'd five chances, an' 'e's 'ad;
'E's wounded, killed, and pris'ner, all the lot —
The ruddy lot all rolled in one. Jim's mad.

(No smileys, even a salute - I'm not in the mood for levity)


Dave, thank you for your perspective on my question.

[seagull]

A good story, a book to add to the wish list and another perpective on how modern technology in war can still leave mental scars. Thank you.

[seagull]

Well the book arrived yesterday. Looks like it wil lbe an interesting read. After that I have Black Fokker Leader and Iron Man, both purchased due to the reviews in the book section.

[7eat51]

Well the book arrived yesterday. Looks like it wil lbe an interesting read. After that I have Black Fokker Leader and Iron Man, both purchased due to the reviews in the book section.

Hey Chris,

I am currently reading this. I think it will be well worth the time. I will read Black Fokker Leader in the near future due to the reviews as well. Both pilots seem like men of integrity.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts when you finish.

Eric

[Marechallannes]

An interesting story, Shawn.

...and a very unique story in WW II aerial combat, espacially because all persons involved, survived the war.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82468&d=1363850144

I think many details led to the decision, the German Fighter pilot made this day.

Stories like these contributed to the personal engagement, some allied Officers showed when the tribunals judged over the defeated Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS troops & officers.

[csadn]

Stories like these contributed to the personal engagement, some allied Officers showed when the tribunals judged over the defeated Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS troops & officers.

Indeed -- having read in _The Conquerors_ what some folks wanted to do to Germany post-War, it was useful to be able to point to examples where the Germans were *not* the knuckle-walking barbarians seen in the propaganda films.

As it was explained to me by someone who'd Been There: Most of the "hardcores" got snarfed up by the SS; the Army had the next biggest concentration (excuse the expression), then the Navy, and by the time one got to the Air Force it was mainly the folks who'd signed on because they had to in order to get flying lessons.

[Пилот]

@AlgyLacey

You are right. Conscience is a tricky thing. But, guy/girl on the first line risks physical health, mental health, and a life! (S)he could also be crippled for life. Or taken prisoner. So, I believe we can't compare those two. In the same measure you could then award medals to a bombing civil victims, as they would also have nightmares. So, I am much more close to traditional medal awarding criteria - without giving them to indirect and physically protected fighters.

[Пилот]

And this was definitely act of chivalry: Joseph Schultz, Wermacht soldier, on 20. jula 1941. godine in Viševac (near Smederevo), Serbia, refused to shoot 18 prisoned partisans, fighters of Palanka Partisan Company. He was courtmarshalled on the spot, and executed together with those 18 young guys. There are pictures of brave soldier, and executed prisoners of war.

[Kaiser]

Those are real heros. Because those are the few who do what most won't do.

[fast.git]

Great story. Thank you.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Great story, brings home some of the real stories of WW2.

[Baldrick62]

Read in today's Sunday Times that Tom Stoppard is to produce a movie of the Brown-Stigler incident, with filming likely to start next year.

[gully_raker]

Read in today's Sunday Times that Tom Stoppard is to produce a movie of the Brown-Stigler incident, with filming likely to start next year.

:thumbsup: Should make an interesting & moving movie.

Lets hope he does them both justice!

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Nice to see something other than death and mayhem a real human story of war, just watched El Alamein, in Italian with sub titles. Certainly put that little campaign into perspective.

[OldGuy59]

OK,
I was trying to get this up in a timely manner, but it isn't coming together too fast. I am doing everything from scratch, and it is taking way longer than I thought. This is the work, so far:

131493

End result will be a B-17 (two actually, before and after) and a Bf-109G set for this event.

Mike :)

[OldGuy59]

Management Card for pre-damage condition almost done. Thanks to Baldrick [Baldrick62] for pointing out my dyslexia in a polite PM.

131847

Shading and a few more touches to do. Amazing that you can see the plane under all the crew markers.

Bombardier is the Right Cheek gunner [Edit: no chin turret on an F model!], Navigator handles the Left Cheek gun, Flight Engineer is the Dorsal Turret Gunner, Radio Operator is Rear Dorsal Gunner, then the Ball Turret Gunner, Waist Gunners and Tail Gunner.

Mike :)

[Baldrick62]

OG, 'Ye Olde Pub' was a B17F (42-3167), so unlikely to have a chin turret, which is a feature of the B17G. There would have been 1 or 2 flex MGs in the plexiglas nose. Unfortunately I can't find a photo, only 'artist's interpretations'.

131737

[OldGuy59]

Baldrick!
Stop confusing me with facts! Now I have to change the line drawing and positions.

I'll change the markings on this version to a G model plane. 527th Sqn flew both models, IIRC.

Mike :)

[Baldrick62]

I don't think you need to change the line drawing, as the chin turret isn't visible from above and the plexiglas nose is the same on both F- and G-models.

[OldGuy59]

Line Drawing changed in the management card above. The Cheek Guns are in a slightly different position on the F model, but you won't notice this on the Management Card, as the Crew Position Indicators obscure the drawing. I left the Navigator as a "Pilot" figure, not a gunner. He probably should be a gunner, cause he can't swap out for a pilot. Technically, there are only four gunners on a B-17, the rest are double or triple tasked (Bombardier [III], Navigator [IV], Flight Engineer [VI], and Radio Operator [V]).

However, I will post a set of cards for B-17G "Vonnie Gal" of the same squadron, using all the stuff I did up for "Ye Olde Pub". Shame to waste all the work.

Mike :)

[OldGuy59]

Wow.

Bombers are a lot more complicated than I expected. Wwwaaayyy too many gun arcs on a B-17!

132205

The firing arc for the Dorsal Turret (3) is broken into three parts for same altitude, and 360 degrees for above. Aft Fuselage gun (Radio Operator - 4) is to the rear, but with a blind spot for the tail (not shown, but using WWI Bomber rules). The Ventral Turret (5) is 360 degrees below. Waist Gunners are limited to the arc indicated for same altitude, but can fire below and over the wings/elevators for lower/higher targets.

I hope I got the damage per gun right, and the Damage Rating is probably wrong, too. Maneuver Deck is a guess, but we should know what it is in August.

Mike :)

[OldGuy59]

OK!
Not that anyone will actually fly a mission with a plane in this condition, but if you wanted to...

132350
Both the pilots have a wound each, so one more for either, and they are out. The Flight Engineer is the only one not wounded, and can actually operate either the dorsal or ventral turrets. Moving from turret to turret should take a while, though. All other crew are wounded or dead, and unable to assist with shooting.

132351
Technically, three engines are working, and only the inner port engine (2) is shut down. But, the outer starboard (4) is idled back, and will run away if the throttle is opened, so no telling how long it would last, or if it is just hanging in there. Damage is estimated, but there is no rudder, and directional control is through aileron turns and engine control.

Have fun!

Mike :)

[OldGuy59]

And, as the matching set,

174305

Franz Stigler's Bf-109G.

Mike :)

[Edit: Updated the card to Unofficial Stats V1 2015]

[Marechallannes]

Brilliant work, Mike!

This seems worth a WGS special pack with a B-17 / Bf.109G combo. :thumbsup:

[csadn]

The Flight Engineer is the only one not wounded, and can actually operate either the dorsal or ventral turrets.

Not sure if the FE could get into/out of the ball turret in the time it takes to play a game....

[OldGuy59]

Not sure if the FE could get into/out of the ball turret in the time it takes to play a game....

Well,

Personally, I don't see the FE leaving the cockpit area for any length of time, considering the condition of the plane and the trouble with the engines. I don't know squat about getting in and out of turrets, honestly. It was just a thought, if they were desperate to defend themselves.

Mike :)

[Jager]

Nice work Mike :thumbsup:

Not to deface the courage and honor of the men involved in the historical event, but I can see this as a viable scenario for a game: escorting the battered B-17 home.
Karl

[OldGuy59]

My Father sheared this story with me several years ago; one of his friends was a crew member in that bomber group.

I saw the book recently on amazon and couldn't believe it. It is now on my reading shortlist. I hope to provide a review fairly soon, or to engage in more conversation if someone else does. Unfortunately, we don't often hear stories like this.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0425252868/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Thanks for sharing the link.

Has anyone posted a review of this book? I picked it up in CostCo while at Enfilade 2014. Not the book I expected, and I couldn't put it down. SWMBO read it, and it is now making its way through my in-laws ( who are not known to be military history buffs).

For someone who has researched planes, squadrons, and pilots for cards, this was a fascinating look at a personal view of the other side.

From a personal side, I have done lots of cards for planes and pilots that popped up in this book, not only the set above, but ones like Galland's Me-262.

Very much worth reading.

BTW: Shocking fact for me: 28,000 German pilots trained in WWII, less that 2.5% survived the war! A miracle that Stigler is one that survived to answer the letter.

Mike :)