Unhappy

[Max von Clickenhoff]

First let me tell you a little about myself before you read on.
I am 56 years old, was in the British army for 18 years and have been war gaming for 30 odd years in many periods Ancient, ACW, Nap, WWII, Naval to name a few and I like to play realistically, so you can see I have been around the block a few times. I am now a security guard who works nights, 4 nights on and 4 off so look forward to my Sundays off, when they came around, so I can get down the local club.
Ok you get the picture, old fart, likes playing with toys, and never did grow up.
Right then to this Sunday just gone. We started a small campaign last Sunday and all week long I have been looking forward to this Sunday. We was given a set number of planes to do missions with. Also we had balloons to defend. As we only had 12 fighters and the obs balloons gave the Tommie’s more points I set the fighters to defend our balloons. Three balloons with 4 fighters’s each as defence plus MG’s on the ground that should do the trick.
So on comes the Tommies, 3 times Newport 17 and we engage, well to cut a long story short we downed all the Newports BUT in the course of the game one of the Newports got passed us and just ran into the balloon and got away with it !!!!!!
The rule we use (before I said anything to the ref) is the balloon gets one damage card and the plane got one as well. I was not happy with this and said to the ref that’s not right and after that the plane got another damage card. So in the end the plane gets 2 damage cards and the balloon gets 1. I am still not happy with this, in fact I am still pretty mad about it, I mean let’s think about this for one minute, there you are in a plane made of linen, wood and piano wire 800 odd feet above the ground, no chute and doing around 100mph and you fly right into a balloon and just bounce off, I don’t think so.
I would like to know if there are any rules out there for this (running into balloons) or some house rules you guys use. We don’t have the “Balloon Buster set”…… yet
I consider this to be unsporting and just plain unrealistic.

Sorry to go on about this but I am still hopping mad

vC

[Rumpler]

I have to concur with Clicky's anger. He was in fact flying as my wingman in the battle in question. Basically it ruined my whole afternoon.
I found the attitude of the player in question to be very unsportsmanlike and not in the spirit of the game. I could understand if he miscalculated his manouvere cards but this guy deliberately aimed his machine straight at the balloon in the knowledge that he would only incur one damage card. As it was he managed to set the balloon on fire costing us our mission of protecting it.
I mean, realistically what he did was absolute rubbish. No pilot, unless he was in flames had a bullet in his lung and half his scalp missing would deliberately ram a balloon.
Surely deliberately ramming a balloon would mean a the end of the aircraft??
Any ideas anyone?

[Carl_Brisgamer]

I mean let’s think about this for one minute, there you are in a plane made of linen, wood and piano wire 800 odd feet above the ground, no chute and doing around 100mph and you fly right into a balloon and just bounce off, I don’t think so.
I would like to know if there are any rules out there for this (running into balloons) or some house rules you guys use. We don’t have the “Balloon Buster set”…… yet
I consider this to be unsporting and just plain unrealistic.

Sorry to go on about this but I am still hopping mad

vC

Hi Max,

Truth can be stranger than fiction - this actually happened to Belgian ace Willy Coppens in May 1918:

Using his usual tactics of close range fire, Coppens cut a balloon loose from its ties. It bounced up beneath him and momentarily carried his Hanriot skyward. After his aircraft fell off the balloon, he restarted its engine and flew back to base. The balloon sagged into an explosion.

The Burning Drachens rules for collisions are summarised as follows:

Collisions
Two overlapping planes/balloons collide if they are both at the same altitude and either both have any number of climb counters or no climb counters.
Each takes a C damage card (only damage points and explosions) for each plane/balloon it collides with.

In addition you have the rules for exploding balloons:

Damage

Balloons ignore all special damage except fire and explosions.

Fire: put one flame counter on the balloon; they are never removed. For each flame counter it takes an A damage card (only damage points and explosions) at the start of each turn until it is on the ground or destroyed.

Explosions: a balloon explodes if it takes an explosion result or reaches its maximum damage while on fire. It is removed from the game and all planes overlapping the balloon (or planes within a half-ruler at the same altitude
level and all those overlapping at the level just above or below it) take a C damage card (only damage points, explosions and fire).

Maximum Damage: balloon is eliminated but does not explode.

So the draw of the damage cards decides if the aircraft has careered directly into the balloon (explosion), had a glancing blow (some damage) or simply a near miss (0 damage).

In this game it often comes down to the luck of the draw - your kamikaze mate could have easily taken an explosion or a 10 damage, which may well have cooked his goose!

Cheers,

Carl.

[Rumpler]

Yep this was all done with regard to the Burning Drachens rules Carl.
The fact in issue that I think got Clicky and myself so mad was that the player decided that he was undamaged and at worst would take 10 points of damage or Set his plane on fire. We take the explosion cards as 6 points of damage. He deliberately aimed his plane at the balloon. It was not a mistake or close call. He found a loophole to win his mission and took unfair advantage of it.
I mean can you imagine the briefing for a balloon busting mission if it was that easy?

"OK today were are balloon busting. Simpkins I want you to fly your plane directly into the balloon!"
Unrealistic and rubbish. Bad sportsmanship all round!

[Max von Clickenhoff]

Thank you Carl for a quick reply. I don’t wish to start a flame war here (no punt intended) but you have pointed out just one case of someone running into a balloon, are there any other cases??
I found in the game, which I really like, that this is just wrong. The guy is at the same height as the balloon and gets away with just one damage card. In this case we may as well just all fire at close range (two cards) and then ram (one more card). In the end the poor old balloon has three damage cards and the plane one. In the damage deck I think the highest card is a 10 and all planes can take that. Sorry about this but I still think it’s wrong.
This has now set a precedence, we may as well just set the planes to ramming speed.
Again thank you for repling so quick
vC

[sparty]

I think the issue is not so much the guy flying into the balloon on purpose. The C deck does have a better chance of pulling special damage and an explosion card. All his wingmen were gone and it sounds like you guys had far superior tactics. He was unlikely to get another pass in on the balloon.

The issue is that by including the explosion card as anything less than instant death it encourages overly risky behavior. If I know the worst I'm going to take is 6 damage from it...I can pretty much do whatever I like. The explosion card is meant to simulate so much more than an outright explosion.

Keep in mind mind that it was not uncommon to have observation balloons rigged to explode to kill pilots that got close as a deterrent! In that case the explosion card for instant death makes sense on both accounts. Furthermore, I don't know what the relative worth of a balloon was in WW1, but I do know that knocking down 5+ planes while only losing 1 balloon would have been a victory so it sounds like the mission parameters may have been a little off if you guys lost after soundly dominating the air around the balloon!

Now...that said...I HATE it when people just do gamey stuff because they can. The game was not meant to be played like bumper cars. A reminder is in order for the guy with future adjustments to how you play the game if it continues to be an issue.

[check6]

I have been playing this game with some people around my dorm, and we had one guy who fancied kamikaze attacks, so i just yanked the collision rules and the nonsense stopped. granted, it would be nice to play with the collision rules, and i probably would if balloons were involved (dodging another plane is much easier than a giant balloon). that said, i would put a swift stop to the use of collisions as a tactic to destroy things, as that is just silly as it simply wasn't done.

perhaps, collision with a balloon should result in instant death for the plane, to represent the fragility of the aircraft and the high probability of losing wings to ropes and wires hanging from the balloon.

in conclusion, sometimes it is best to remove the problem rule, other times you probably just need to make it clear you won't stand for it. I really do not like "gamey" behavior, or unsportsmanlike conduct, and while it is often easier to just avoid conflict, I really do want to rattle their cages when people do this stuff (i mean c'mon, its a game!!! have you really won if you cheated or acted unsportsmanlike and won a game only to make a jerk of yourself and ruined the day of a fellow gamer?).

IMO you have a right to be angry here.

[Belis4rius]

I am with Von Clink on this one. Coppens did not fly into the balloon, it was merely bad luck it came up under him and good luck that he survived. No one should be allowed to deliberatly fly into a balloon, or, in my view, another aircraft in this game. Despite the fact that someone may dig into historical records and come up with one or two occassions where it did happen, and considering there was no communication in those days I cannot see how it could be verified, the overwhelming majority of pilots did not do this and nor was it an acceptable part of aerial combat, unlike the Japanese in WWII.

We have all met players like this and unfortunately the only solution is simply not to play with him again, don't stand for it.

[Max von Clickenhoff]

Guys thank you all for your support in this.

Sparty
I too hate it when people just do gamey stuff because they can

Check6

perhaps a collision with a balloon should result in instant death for the plane. I could go along with that.

Again thanks to ALL that repled. Next time I'll write up a mission report.
Now off to the bar and I will buy you all a drink.....wheres that ommph band of mine, time for a sing along

vC

[Grinneth42]

We have all met players like this and unfortunately the only solution is simply not to play with him again, don't stand for it.

I have to agree... the simplest answer may just be to blacklist him. If you remove any rules, it may mean that the one time someone actually loses control and hits the balloon, there is a pre-determined response... which I'm guessing would only cause more problems.

[LGKR]

In our league play all collisions result in 3 "A" Damage cards drawn for each aircraft, more often than not this results in a satisfactory amount of damage to both. Even if the plane draws three 0's it's not beyond the realm of posability.

[John B]

Old Fart ! at 50 + I think I shall keep my Age to myself. :eek:;):D

John B

[IRM]

I'd suggest that any plane deliberately ramming a target is destroyed automatically. That said, I'd consider it to be at best gamesmanship if not bordering on cheating to ram on purpose.

I interpret the collision rules to include shooting from both planes as they close and damage due to overstressing the airframe while trying to avoid the other plane, as well as actually striking the other plane, which is why you can get disparate damage results. I did see one House Rule where only one card is drawn and both aircraft take the same damege.

[Von Rotherham]

I've yet to use Balloons in WoW so this has not occurred in a game I've yet played, having said that, my opponent has written a set of fast play Star-ship combat rules (http://captainferk.blogspot.com/) in which deliberate ramming is NOT allowed, he deals with this way: Deliberately ramming other ships is prohibited. Navies award Commands to able Captains, not maniacs. Personally I'd just remove the rule.

[sparty]

The game plays well as written. Fiddling with the rules all over the place seems like it should be a last resort rather than the de facto way to resolve issues.

The issue isn't with the rule as written. The issue is that a player willingly made a gamey tactic simply because it was technically allowable. The beef, as far as I'm concerned, should not be with how the game handles rogue players, but rather how the game group addresses decorum within its membership.

There's nothing wrong with saying, "That was a pretty bold move. We'll let it slide because it's in the rules, but lets have a gentleman's agreement not to do intentionally ahistorical actions just because it's allowable by the rules." If the player cannot accept those terms, then maybe it's not the kind of person you want at the game table.

From personal experience this has been enough to curb player behavior the group deemed inappropriate.

[Rumpler]

"Navies award Commands to able Captains, not maniacs."
Hahahaha!
I am so going to modify that the next time I flag down an armoured vehicle for speeding.
The Army awards command of an armoured vehicle to soldiers, not maniacs.

[Steve]

I may be wrong, but I think the rules were written for accidental collisions. I would say deliberately ramming a balloon should incur a tremendous amount a damage. Especially if the ramming is intended to destroy the balloon. Its one thing to bounce your tires off the top or brush a wing as you attempt to avoid the crash, its a completely different result if you fly the front of the plane into a balloon. If you succeed at a kamikaze attack of this sort the plan should have an extremely small chance of survival and a very high chance of being completely destroyed. Perhaps a house rule is in order to prevent this sort of thing. In friendly non-campaign games I too treat explosions as 10 points of damage. This however never applies to the C deck. In the C deck they are still explosions. In response to your current problem I would leave the explosions in the deck and a suicide attack would result in at least 3 cards from the C deck and any special damage would be treated as an explosion.

Just my thoughts.

[AlgyLacey]

I'm with you Steve. Clipping the balloon wire, catching a wingtip on the envelope you'd maybe get away with. Realistically, flying into a balloon on purpose is going to kill you.

Max you have the right of it. Tell the Banzai Bandit to try driving a 650cc motorbike through the canvas of a big tent at 95mph if he still won't believe you, and don't play with the nutjob again

[Lowell Throttle]

There's always seems to be one crazy in the house that will "test" the rules....
But then maybe that's a good reason for house rules!

Play on Max.

[sparty]

Was it ever made clear to the player who made the infraction that it was ahistorical and while not technically against the rules greatly frowned upon and may be cause for not playing with the guy again?

I'd talk to the guy before implementing a bunch of draconian rules that affect 1 dude who may be easily swayed or laugh it off as a 1 time thing. Did he attempt to do this again?

I will ardently maintain that while house rules are handy, they get to be problematic when people outside your house want to play. In my local area the house rules that are played here sometimes are so far off kilter from the way the game was written it's hard to understand how a literate person could have interpreted that the substitutions make sense in the framework of the game.

[Charlie3]

OK I have 2 cents to put in.

First penny...So as not to change the rules to compensate for one dweeb player. I would simply institute a house rule that in order to count the points to the win, the pilot must survive the attack, and that a direct bonzai charge into the balloon constitutes a suicide attack meaning the pilot is dead.

Second penny...It would be perfectly reasonable to simply assume that the pilot will do whatever it takes to avoid crashing into the balloon. So when there is an overlap with one the plane cannot fire at it or do damage to it. (standard overlap rule) and ignore the collision rules for this situation.

[sparty]

Second penny...It would be perfectly reasonable to simply assume that the pilot will do whatever it takes to avoid crashing into the balloon. So when there is an overlap with one the plane cannot fire at it or do damage to it. (standard overlap rule) and ignore the collision rules for this situation.

Best 1 penny I've seen in this thread. No magical rolling or damage system...you just say to the guy...oh yeah...we decided you can't and if you do it's just the standard overlap rule. Nothing changed other than that....though I still firmly believe house rules should not be something you hide behind when dealing with a gamey gamer. ;) Those kinds of people, if they don't get straightened out quickly, subvert fun over and over again.

[Jythier]

I still feel the best explosion-card rule is you do not explode unless it's a C or D card, or you are already on fire, smoking, or engine damaged. Not only does it make sense that you would need a reason to explode, it also makes running in those situations more viable - stay out of range until you are no longer vulnerable to a one-shot kill.

As for the original post - that's tough, shooting down everyone except one and that one getting the kill... and in such a gamey way too... but that's what happens when you use the same rules for a plane/plane collision as a balloon/plane collision... it's just a game, and gamey things happen in games unfortunately.

[JBParkland]

I suggest that the balance in the game is about right as if a plane wants to ram a balloon, the odds aren't that great from the plane's perspective. The balloon has about twice as many hit points to take as a plane, and there are lots of zeros in the C deck (as well as some nasties, granted). If the balloon and plane get equal-ish damage the plane is proportionately much worse off. Even if the ram does mean the balloon explodes then the plane will have to take another C card due to the explosion anyway.

Anyone wanting to ram a balloon has got to be feeling very lucky if they want to survive.

I suppose its more worthwhile ramming if you have lots of planes and a single balloon objective, but this could be fixed by using mission points to penalise losing planes (eg. losing 2 planes loses more points than downing a balloon gains). Also, if you're playing campaign rules then the pilot doesn't get the kill for ramming and is penalised for dying.

[Volant Gun]

Charlie3 and Sparty have hit the nail on the head.

In my opinion we have beat this dead horse to the ground. Clinky said thanks a while ago and is now drinking the bar dry! I think he still owes me a beer! :D

Have Fun!
Volant Gun

[rcboater]

If I've got only 1 hit left to take, I'm on fire, with rudder damage and a turn left to go to clear my jammed guns, I want to have the option to crash into a balloon on purpose......

[Colmanspig]

This does bring up the issue of moralle , or possible preventing player carrying out insane acts.
If some one is the in the possition that rc boater surgests then , after a moral check then yes why not.
However i would be more comfotable if there was some documented eveidence from history backing this up.

The one account of a pilot on fire i read ( he survived ) he put his plane in to a dive just to stop the flames licking against him . he pulled out and crashlanded and was takne prisoner. He did not attempt to ram any one his first instinct was to try to live.

I think pilots would more likely panic, if they don't panic they would tyr to live and do something about the flames. i think only rare individuals would keep there heads and try and crash into some one

[The Blue Baron]

If I've got only 1 hit left to take, I'm on fire, with rudder damage and a turn left to go to clear my jammed guns, I want to have the option to crash into a balloon on purpose......

The historically correct thing in thin situation would be to retreat. You have to aknowlage that this would have been suicide...

[Max von Clickenhoff]

Volant Gun indeed I am in the bar with your drink.....in fact I am holding the bar up or is it holding me up ?? :)

[Belis4rius]

No one in a game I umpire would get to ram a balloon, and to be honest a player who would stoop to that kind of nonesense would find himself out in the cold pretty quick with most people.

[SgtWaka]

No one in a game I umpire would get to ram a balloon, and to be honest a player who would stoop to that kind of nonesense would find himself out in the cold pretty quick with most people.

Agreed!!!:mad::mad:

[Volant Gun]

MAX!

THAT LAST PINT WAS SUPPOSE TO HAVE BEEN FOR ME!!!

Will someone please carry him out? ;)

VG