Black Pfalz Squadron Question

[Coog]

I was at a used book store today and noticed an old paperback from 1961 about WWI aces for a couple of dollars. When I saw that one of the chapters was on the USAS pilot Elliott Springs, my favorite WWI ace, I grabbed it. I was reading about Springs while he was temporarily assigned to Bishop's 85 Squadron, awaiting the formation of US squadrons. Bishop, Springs, and four others were on a patrol when they encountered what is refered to as six black Pfalz. Three Pfalz were shot down, Bishop and Springs getting one a piece.

When the Nexus SE5a's came out I did a repaint, or a re-lettering to be more precise, of a Bishop SE5a to be the SE5a that Springs flew while with 85 Squadron. I thought it might be interesting to do a semi-historical rematch if I did a repaint on some Pfalz. The Holtzem Pfalz does have a black tail but I don't know if his squadron had some kind of black color scheme. While I have quite a few books on aircraft, I have been negligent in obtaining much on the Pfalz. Does anyone know from what squadron these black Pfalz could have come?

[somaliavet]

Jasta 40s flew black planes with white tails. I know they had at least 2 Pfalzes in those colors.

[Coog]

Jasta 40s flew black planes with white tails. I know they had at least 2 Pfalzes in those colors.

I just found this searching on the net. It is the aircraft of Carl Degelow of either Jasta 7 or 40. If Jasta 40 it would fit in with your info. The engagement occurred around Courtrai in June 1918. This leads to the question: Was Jasta 40 assigned to that area during that time?
46486

[Oberst Hajj]

This leads to the question: Was Jasta 40 assigned to that area during that time?


I should be able to answer that question for you when I get home in the morning... or anyone with "The Jasta Pilots (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?8162-WGF-Jasta-Pilots-The)" book can chime in.

[Baldrick62]

From 'The Jasta Pilots' (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?8162-WGF-Jasta-Pilots-The-) '... on 24 April (1918) a move was made to the 4 Armee in Flanders, where Jasta 40s remained for the rest of the war.' 'In August 1917 (Jasta 7) moved to the 4 Armee Sector where it remained for the rest of the war.' So, both jastas 7 and 40s whcih flew black fuselaged Pfalz D.IIIs were in the general area in June 1918.

In 'Over The Front' (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?9044-WGF-Over-The-Front), Springs is credited with a Pfalz D.III on 1 June 1918 while serving with 85 Sqn RAF, and in 'The Jasta War Chronology' (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?9040-WGF-Jasta-War-Chronology-The), Uffz Kroeger of Jasta 7 is listed as WIA. No Jasta 40s casualties are listed for that date.

[Coog]

Thanks all for your work thus far.

I checked the book Warbirds, the dairy of US Lt. John Grider who was also temporarily assigned to 85 Squadron. He was not in the engagement but noted it in his dairy. The engagement occurred on 5 June. One detail was not mentioned in the other book. Bishop and MacGregor got credit for their kills but Springs did not. The Pfalz he got was seen going down out of control, but no one saw it crash. No confirmation, no kill. Grider made an interesting comment "They were Pfalz scouts and are easy meat for S. E.s." Evidently the Pfalz did not get much respect.

Whatever Jasta it was would have lost two, maybe three, planes on June 5 around Courtrai (also spelled Kortrijk).

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Here are some more of Jasta 40 if it helps. not all Pfalz but the insignia may be of interest.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41516&d=1334661248

Rob.

[Dark Horse]

I read "Black Fokker Leader" by Peter Kilduff late last year. Its contents concern the career of Carl Degelow and is mainly about Jasta 40, their Pfalz Diii, Fokker Dr1 & Fokker Dvii aircraft. I don't remember a description of them losing 3 Pfalz in one combat so I just had another quick flick through & still cannot find such a fight. There is an Appendix listing Jasta 40's confirmed victory list, but not one of losses. There are certainly a number of Se5a's on their victory list so they encountered them quite regularly. There is a review of the book elsewhere on this site.

They are an interesting bunch, I am currently painting a number of their planes. Pix soon(ish)...

[Baldrick62]

OK; with a change in the parameters...

According to the various Grub Street books (not definitive I know, but probably the closest thing to it available to most of us), Bishop is credited with a Pfalz D.III ivo La Gorgue on 1 Jun 18 and another on 2 Jun 18 south of Armentieres. His only other Pfalz D.III claim for the month is on 15 Jun 18. On 1 Jun 18, MacGregor is credited with 2 x Pfalz D.III ivo La Gorgue. Neither are credited with Pfalz D.III kills on 5 Jun 18. So, there are 4 possible Pfalz D.III kills by 85 Sqn pilots on 1 Jun 18 (Springs 1, Bishop 1, MacGregor 2), and none for those pilots on 5 Jun 18.

In addition to Jastas 7 & 40s, Jasta 37 flew black-fuselaged aircraft, including the Pfalz D.III/IIIa. Apart from Uffz Kroeger of Jasta 7 listed as a casualty on 1 Jun 18, Jasta 37 lost Neumann and Schreiber on 1 & 2 Jun respectively however, Jasta 37 was further south in the 2 Armee sector.