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Thread: Georges Guynemer Spad Repaint Project

  1. #1

    Lightbulb Georges Guynemer Spad Repaint Project

    As a favor to CappyTom I will be taking a Nexus Baracca Spad XIII mini and repainting it to match the paint job of Georges Guynemer's French Spad VII.

    I was wondering if any of the more experienced modelers here would mind suggesting some paint colors to match the scheme as closely as possible?

    I hope to take a few pictures as I go... at least I don't have to worry about cutting off fingers in this project...

    Here are a couple of small pics of a model of the original Spad and a pic of a replica..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spad_VII.jpg   Spad_VII_2.jpg   SpadVII Replica.jpg  
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  2. #2

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    I'd like to see a Guynemers SPAD VII as an official release... for one, I see a prime retail opportunity at Le Bourget since they own the original bird.

  3. #3

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    Interesting two tone scheme on the replica. Which one are you intending to base your repaint on Ken?
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Interesting two tone scheme on the replica. Which one are you intending to base your repaint on Ken?
    Rob.
    Probably the Model... Tom seemed to like the mirrored "2"s on the Top wing... and that one most closely resembles the video he first showed me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj7bPQXEUfo
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  5. #5

    Dom S's Avatar
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    F-Toys did a Guynemer SPAD VII - still pops up on Ebay from time to time.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    F-Toys did a Guynemer SPAD VII - still pops up on Ebay from time to time.
    Yep... found two.... I will let Tom know... and continue on for now!
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  7. #7

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    Step 1: Prepare the existing miniature.

    This would be the Nexus Spad XIII I will be working with.



    I will be placing it in the freezer for a bit, in the hopes of loosening up the glue joints so that I can hopefully detach the top wing. This will make it easier to do the repaint
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  8. #8

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    The other thing, Ken, is you might try boiling it in hot water before you freeze it--not long enough to start bending the plastic, but just long enough that the combined effect of heating then cooling might further help loosen the glue's bond.

    So what keeps you up this late? Insomnia is a terrible thing, especially when the only thing on is oldy-and-moldy Law & Order episodes...

  9. #9

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    Where you getting your decals from Ken?
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The other thing, Ken, is you might try boiling it in hot water before you freeze it--not long enough to start bending the plastic, but just long enough that the combined effect of heating then cooling might further help loosen the glue's bond.

    So what keeps you up this late? Insomnia is a terrible thing, especially when the only thing on is oldy-and-moldy Law & Order episodes...
    I will give that a try... might loosen up the decals too!

    Tonight it is pain that is keeping me up. Part of the whole neuropathy problem. Can't sleep yet so figure I might as well get some things done! I will crash here in a while hopefully. (Sleep meds I took a little bit ago will kick in) I actually have one of those Extenze infomercials on TV as background noise right now... just have not gotten around to reaching back to change the channel... pretty amusing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    Where you getting your decals from Ken?
    I will probably be making my own... I may try to find a larger scale set online to use as the base image.
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  11. #11

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    Ouch, that sucks. I actually am known to "waterboard" what we A&A'ers call "banana boats" to straighten 'em out...

    It's been interesting trying to learn to think in two different time zones 3 hours apart at once... makes the LDGE and I exchanging bedtime-stories by email a bit of a challenge--if it's not out by 7 or 8 my time she doesn't get it 'til morning. (For some reason, we've been finding it fun to work "winner calls the shots for the night" WoW games into 'em... )

  12. #12

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    Let us know how the freezing goes for popping those wings off.

  13. #13

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    You guys are over the top! Boiling and freezing a plane to get the wings off! I love it!!!

  14. #14

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    Someday I'll photograph the process where I "waterboard" a W@S ship with a rubberband and a tableknife for your consideration...

  15. #15

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    Hi Ken . A product I have used to remove paint and it also seems to deglue is Super Clean. It is sold at Wall Mart auto dept. Comes in a purple container is non toxic and bio degradable. Hope this helps.

  16. #16

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    Ken,
    Simple Green will soften the paint. Soak for short periods as it can soften the plastic also. I have stripped the paint from a couple of Rolands with lacquer thinner and Q tips. A slow method but easy to control the results. I have some paint colors that I used on touch up of some F toy planes.
    Tony

  17. #17

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    Step 2:Carefully Remove the Top Wing.

    I awoke at 2:00 AM this morning, and was unable to go back to sleep, so I headed to the kitchen to retrieve the miniature from the freezer. I had placed it in the freezer about six hours prior to allow it to get nice and chilly. This seems to weaken the glue bonds, and with some gentle coaxing and prying from the front of the bottom wing I was able to pop loose the four outer struts. It was then no problem to wiggle loose the top center struts as well, and in this case the tail section was already loose when I received the mini:



    I am unsure at this point whether I wish to remove the existing paint from the mini or not. Since the mini is plastic, and not mine, I am concerned with any type of solvent damaging it. My other choice would be to lightly spray the mini with primer, and then air-bush a base coat color over that. I also still need to come up with good suggestions for paint color as well. It is time to consult with my many advisors in this thread:

    Oh wise and powerful advisors... I beseech thee... what say you??
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    Let us know how the freezing goes for popping those wings off.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbmacek View Post
    You guys are over the top! Boiling and freezing a plane to get the wings off! I love it!!!
    And there you have your answer!
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  19. #19

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    I've got some repaints planned but never anticipated deconstructing the models...I was just going to...well repaint them

    But now that I am reading all this I am re-aranging the freezer to get some space between the frozen meat and pizza's where I can land a Nieuport 16 to freeze its wngs of... Cool! ( no pun intended )
    Last edited by Bluedevil; 01-17-2011 at 02:15. Reason: the usual typo's

  20. #20

    Dom S's Avatar
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    Must admit I've never found it necessary, and I've done a lot of repaints - I'd have the wing off if trying to do lozenge pattern, say, but unless the brushwork is very fiddly it's not an issue.

  21. #21

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    Ken
    It looks like a fair factory paint job. I think I would just do some sanding and general clean up. Especially in the recesses for the glue joints. Give yourself some room to adjust the wing if you have to. I would remove the decals with Lacquer thinner "carefully" you don't want to make more work for yourself. I usually spray prime with the Armory gray primer that I told you about. If I want a white undercoat I have found that the white covers better over a gray base coat. I use a lot of craft paint from my local Michaels store. Apply in thin coats. I usually allow them to dry overnight. In your case where nights and days blend just give it some time. Light brush strokes or you will soften the previous coat. Oh one other thing the engine cowl glue joint looks rough as long as you are tearing it apart you might take a look at that one as well.
    Tony

  22. #22

    RCAF
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    I was planning on doing exactly the same thing with a Baracca. I was planning on getting the cigogne decals made for the nieuport, but realise by looking at picture that the all red cigogne seem to have been only on the spad VII and that the on the picture of his spad XIII the cigogne is actually in black and white with a french stripe going across.
    Here's the real Guynemer spad VII good reference for color

    Here are some picture of the spad XIII


    And a 3d rendition from the rise of flight video game community


    Please let me know what decals you produce I might be interested in a set, and let me know what you find for paint.

    Thanks.

  23. #23

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    For paint colours try Mister Kit World War 1 acft colour . I use it on all my WW1 models.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    Must admit I've never found it necessary, and I've done a lot of repaints - I'd have the wing off if trying to do lozenge pattern, say, but unless the brushwork is very fiddly it's not an issue.
    This will allow me to more easily airbrush on the base colors (although I am going to have to work out something to "anchor" the pieces down or they will blow away) Afterwards I can add some detail color to the front fuelage/guns that was not there before....
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  25. #25

    Dom S's Avatar
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    Ahh, makes sense if you're airbrushing....

  26. #26

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    That is the plan, once I get a little bit of the "brighter" paint off of this mini and get it cleaned up just a touch. Then I need to go find a can of Armory Primer (might have to wait 'til payday for that.) Meantime I will continue to work on a couple of my other pending projects...

    Thanks for all the suggestions on this so far gents, This is uncharted territory for me! Hopefully I will have some new pics for you soon...
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  27. #27

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    blue tack works great and will not pull paint off finished surface.

  28. #28

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    If it's any help, I use Citadel Bleached Bone for doped linen. Pretty close to that picture of the real thing RCAF posted above after a brown wash, more like the first picture of the actual plane you posted without. Snap of them in my album if you want a peek. I believe Pollyscale do Clear Doped Linen paint which would be spot-on: http://www.testors.com/category/1376...obby_Camoflage

    (For you repainters out there, they also do a great German Mauve)
    Last edited by IRM; 01-17-2011 at 16:38.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRM View Post
    If it's any help, I use Citadel Bleached Bone for doped linen. Pretty close to that picture of the real thing RCAF posted above after a brown wash, more like the first picture of the actual plane you posted without. Snap of them in my album if you want a peek. I believe Pollyscale do Clear Doped Linen paint which would be spot-on: http://www.testors.com/category/1376...obby_Camoflage

    (For you repainters out there, they also do a great German Mauve)
    Thanks Iain... I will probably go with the cleaner, "brand new" look. I find it interesting that there are so many versions of the paint scheme out there that are two tone. I assume this came about from the doped linen becoming dirty as in the museum picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybear View Post
    blue tack works great and will not pull paint off finished surface.
    I am assuming you meant to hold the pieces in place while I airbrush... What about any kind of oily stain or residue leftover?
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  30. #30

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    Step 3: Using Lacquer Thinner and a Q-Tip (Cotton Swab) Gently Remove Bright Colored Paint and Decals.
    Step 4: Sand Down any Slight Imperfections.

    I was able to easily remove the green and red paint from the underside of the bottom wing (The green was a little tougher, and as you can see I ended up taking the straw color as well. Had I gone much further I would deformed the plastic severely) The Top, Side, and Tail decals came off easily as well. I then cleaned out the strut sockets. and sanded a few rough spots. I also popped off the engine cowling and sanded and filed for a better fit before re-gluing it. After I apply primer I will putty around the cowling wherever necessary and sand to a smooth detail.





    Next Step: Primer
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  31. #31

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    Step 5: Prime Mini With a Quality Spray Primer and Allow to Dry

    Pretty Self Explanatory... As you can see, on the left underside of the Bottom Wing the excessive laquer thinner damaged the ribbing a bit. I hope to remedy this with a small round file. I also want to smooth out that engine cowling joint a bit.

    Remember when priming that multiple light coats are always better than one heavy coat.







    Next Step: Airbrushing on the Base Color
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  32. #32

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    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the stork insignia is red and white and not black and white. Film at that time registered color a bit oddly and the best way to tell what color something was was to compare the gray/black representation with another identical gray/black color of which you do know the color. The 2 on the fuselage is red, as is the bottom of the stripe. Both of those register the same as the tips of the wing and tail feathers of the stork. There is a highly likely that they too are red.

    Just my 2 cents

  33. #33

    Dom S's Avatar
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    On a lot of orthochromatic films red and black register identically, so are nigh-on impossible to distinguish. In this particular case I'd stick with the black wings on Guynemer's SPAD XIII - it's pretty much universally depicted as such in artwork and models, and given that it was Guynemer's machine this is likely to be from an actual account (since he's understandably rather more written about than most) not just squinting at photos.

    (That said, you need to decide which one you're doing here - your original post said you were copying his SPAD VII's markings, which were different to those on his SPAD XIII - if you are copying the SPAD VII markings for whatever reason (maybe you just like the mirrored 2 on the wings....) then the storks should be red....) Additionally his XIII had the rounded wing tips, so if you're going down that road any clipping and filing is best done before you start painting in earnest.....
    Last edited by Dom S; 01-18-2011 at 09:30.

  34. #34

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    I am doing this for Cappy Tom. and he really likes the red markings and the double "2" from the Spad VII... so that is the path I am going to attempt to head down. Thanks for all the input!
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  35. #35

    Dom S's Avatar
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    I thought so, but obviously we've rather wandered with various SPAD XIII photos and posts....

  36. #36

    RCAF
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    [QUOTE/]Additionally his XIII had the rounded wing tips, so if you're going down that road any clipping and filing is best done before you start painting in earnest.....[/QUOTE]
    On my side I will probably go with the marking of the spad XIII, any pictures of the round tip...I did'nt find any.

    Thanks!
    Bob

  37. #37

    Dom S's Avatar
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    I don't have a web link offhand I'm afraid, but the really rather good Osprey on Les Cicognes has both a profile and plan view, possibly photos too, although I'm not sure there. British SPAD XIIIs also had the rounded wing tips, so a search for them might do - Tony C has posted photos of his British SPADs, which he did do the rounded wingtips on.

  38. #38

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    I have never had problem with stain or oily residue.

  39. #39

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    Step 6: Airbrush on Base Color

    I had a hard time finding just the right color ... at first I tried something closer to a Light Ivory, and it ended up being a little to close to White for my taste. I ended up adding a touch of a "Straw" color to it and got the color you see in the pictures. I think this is close enough to the different images of Guynemer's Spad for Govt. work.

    You will notice also that I glued on the tail assembly.





    Next Step: Detail Painting.
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  40. #40

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    Seems to be progressing well Ken. The finished plane should be a real cracker.
    ROB.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Seems to be progressing well Ken. The finished plane should be a real cracker.
    ROB.
    Thanks... do you think I came close on the color? Color is not my forté. I am partially color blind and am fully convinced that I do not see subtle hue differences the way most people, especially art experts, and most women, do.
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    Where you getting your decals from Ken?
    I think I have changed my mind on this one. I am going to order Dom's Nieuport 17 Squadron Sheet. Should be close enough in size for me to use the roundels, and the storks, and then I will custom make the "2"s, the tail flag, and the text under the exhaust pipes...
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cowman View Post
    I think I have changed my mind on this one. I am going to order Dom's Nieuport 17 Squadron Sheet. Should be close enough in size for me to use the roundels, and the storks, and then I will custom make the "2"s, the tail flag, and the text under the exhaust pipes...
    Spot on Ken, said the man registered partially sighted..
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  44. #44

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    Looks good so far and some great reconstruction/repaint tips as well, many thanks!

  45. #45

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    Ken,

    Thanks for this "series"...I wish I had half the skill and patience..not to mention the time :-)

  46. #46

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    Step 7: Hand Paint Details
    Step 8: Apply "Magic Dip"

    At this point comes the tiny painting in of most of the details at the front of the Spad, including the Guns, Exhaust Pipes, Radiator, Prop and all the Wing Struts. (I have not done the tires yet (It is my least favorite thing to do, so I am procrastinating 'til my hands are steadier. )

    I then mixed up a small batch of "Magic Dip" to apply to the mini. For those not familiar with the substance, "Magic Dip" is mostly Future or some other brand of clear acrylic floor wax, and a small amount of paint as pigment. The color and amount of paint is dependent on how strong of an effect you are looking for. When applied to a model with lots of deep details, the pigment wicks itself into the recesses, accenting them, and also giving the model a bit of an aged, "used" effect. In the picture it is difficult to see in places, due to the glossy reflection, but the recesses are now darker than the base coat color. Sometimes it requires multiple coats to get the effect you are looking for. When applying, you should take care not to allow the "Dip" to pool heavily in spots. The floor wax leaves the paint job glossy, so Dull Coat will be a must in the end. It also protects the paint underneath, and leaves a good surface for applying decals. (Which I still have to order and/or create.)





    Next Step: Dry Brush on any Highlights and Apply Decals.
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

  47. #47

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    Is that kind of like inking?

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullduggery View Post
    Is that kind of like inking?
    That's what I wanted to ask too, plus does this mean you don't dry brush as well?

    cheers,

    Dave.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullduggery View Post
    Is that kind of like inking?
    Same sort of thing, but a bit more controlled, in my opinion.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullduggery View Post
    Is that kind of like inking?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormkahn View Post
    That's what I wanted to ask too, plus does this mean you don't dry brush as well?

    cheers,

    Dave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Same sort of thing, but a bit more controlled, in my opinion.
    Rob.
    I would agree with Rob that is is similar to inking. You can apply it with a brush, as I do, and where you put the pigment is very precise if you do not apply too much at once. (Due to the "wicking" action of the floor wax) You can also take an entire figure and just dip it in a bowl, lightly shake off the excess and let it dry, thus the name "Magic Dip". It works and is a fast method if you are doing lots of minis, but it a bit sloppy and tends to leave pools of pigment in places.

    I do Drybrush on highlights... that is the next step!
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

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