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Thread: "Series 5" Update!

  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Once again the legions of European customers are treated as second class citizens......


    Not to mention the European retailers, who yet again get to find that by the time they can get their hands on the product, half of their potential customers have already succumbed to (entirely understandable) impatience and ordered from US sellers, especially as some of the latter are able to sell for less than the *wholesale* price this side of the pond, making them competitive even with trans-Atlantic shipping added on. Sorry if I sound jaded, but wearing my retail hat I'm seriously wondering if I'd be wiser not bothering this time....
    Last edited by Dom S; 07-27-2012 at 09:57.

  2. #302

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    I don't think Ares are doing themselves any favours by neglecting the European market.
    I have already sourced two Gothas from elsewhere (Shapeways) and some early scouts so the number of new Areas planes I buy will be quite small.
    Don
    Last edited by Burt; 07-27-2012 at 15:33.

  3. #303

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    I agree Don.
    I am getting my scouts from the U.S.
    I don't want to risk missing out.
    I shall only source my repaints from the U.K.
    Rob.

  4. #304

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    Frankly I dont know how the majority of WOG players in europe gets their planes from. Overseas order? Preordering? Waiting till they are in the stores? Would be interesting to find that out...

    But in general Im not happy with overoptimistic release dates. Rather something more realistic.

    Does anyone knows what caused the delay? Shipping problems? Production delays? I remember seeing the bombers packs pretty early on the ares site (with the claim these are from the actual series and no prototypes). So... questions over questions...

  5. #305

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    Quote Originally Posted by Du doch nicht! View Post
    Frankly I dont know how the majority of WOG players in europe gets their planes from. Overseas order? Preordering? Waiting till they are in the stores? Would be interesting to find that out... [..]
    The bombers are the only ones I've ordered from overseas. Otherwise I've pre ordered series from LGS, bought from Britain (from Dom after I found the Aerodrome) and binged every now and then at my LGS.

    /Niclas

  6. #306

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    As far as I know (but I am not into production nor distribution...)

    The ship to USA and the ship to Europe sail at the same time from China - as soon as the prioduct is ready to leave. Then there are differen travel distances, different weather, different customs, different distribution within USA than within Europe. All this give different times to shelves in USA and Europe, but unpredictable and difficult to avoid. There can be an advantage for USa or not, it depends from so many factorst that I'd say that's almost random.

  7. #307

  8. #308

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    Andrea, if the situation with the distribution of the bombers is anything to go by, I doubt European shops are going to see the series 5 planes this year.

    It matters not what is causing it, the situation is bad and it is a downwards spiral. The shops do not have the goods long after release, the understandably impatient customers get the goods elsewhere (USA anyone?), the shops learn about this and are even more hesitant to try to sell WoG stuff in fear of it staying on the shelves. Rinse and repeat...

  9. #309

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    There can be an advantage for USa or not, it depends from so many factorst that I'd say that's almost random.
    Sorry, but I've got to disagree there - I've *never* known any Wings Of War or Wings Of Glory release make it to Britain first - the only question is just how many weeks later we get it. (WW2 Series 3 was 3 weeks, the WW1 bombers were fully 6 weeks after America, and even then the initial supply was limited.) Maybe the situation's sometimes better on the continent (although it doesn't seem to have been with the WWI bombers) but here we absolutely always get things substantially later than America, and the history of delayed releases and pent-up demand means more and more people are buying direct from the States as soon as they can, rather than waiting for them to eventually turn up at domestic retailers.
    Last edited by Dom S; 07-27-2012 at 13:09.

  10. #310

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    And then there are the shops who have learned from Series 1, and stockpile stuff to sell on ebay to foolish americans

    Which means they will get the scouts/fighters and disregard the bombers and observation types. Gotta get the stuff that brings the most profits!

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    the shops learn about this and are even more hesitant to try to sell WoG stuff in fear of it staying on the shelves. Rinse and repeat...

  11. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burt View Post
    I don't think Ares are doing themselves any favours by neglecting the European market.
    Not sure this actually hurts Ares' bottom line at all. They make the same money off of you wether you buy locally or overseas. The percentage of customers who actually hunt down a differnet manufacturer to source their planes from (Shapeways/Reviresco/etc.) due to the few weeks delay in production reaching Europe has to be vanishingly small. The only people really hurt by the shipping delay are the European local game stores.

  12. #312

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    Not everyone buys their stuff from online shops around the world. Actually us guys hanging out in the internet AND frequent internatlional boards like these are a minority of the gaming group.
    Most will buy their stuff from their LGS or from online shops from their own country. A great percentage aren't even profiecently enough in foreign language to understand the rules other than their own language.
    Even in Germany where English is tought as second language you will struggler to find people wo actually are good in understanding English.

  13. #313

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    Ares has announced on their site that Aug 6 is the American release date.

  14. #314

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    I think I will beleive it when I see it... It has been such a dam long wait. By the looks of it, the 28 Fokker D-7's I bought at $17 each are a great deal as we likely won't see any reprints of Fokkers for awhile?

  15. #315

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    Working on the Top German/Austrian aces of ww1. So far I have 38 customed out of around 80 ish I think. I have most of the rest with decals waiting to go. Sure would be nice to have wog's to purchase to fill spots at reasonable pricing! Fokkers...Fokkers...Fokkers... did I say Fokkers???

  16. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by wjw View Post
    Ares has announced on their site that Aug 6 is the American release date.

    I think that was the date that America released "Little Boy"

  17. #317

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    Bomb away

    Quote Originally Posted by Willi Von Klugermann View Post
    I think that was the date that America released "Little Boy"

  18. #318

  19. #319

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    From the sounds of the news release the product has cleared customs in the US and is at the Ares warehouse. At this point it is, in all likelihood, being broken down into bulk orders for shipment to the distributors, then to the stores and ready for sale on Aug.6th. From my experience with overeseas shipments, the real wild card in the production/delivery cycle is clearing customs. Unlike personal items being carried thru customs, shipments go to a customs processing center and may take anywhere from two to three days to well over two months sitting in customs "awaiting processing". Reasons are as obscure as possible...good news here is the release from Ares indicates that step is over with and Aug.6th looks golden. Not sure how customs works in Europe for such items but that's the big uncontrollable bump in setting shipping dates...production can be very smooth, then run aground at the customs center...makes life fun. Looking forward to new product...more, more, more. Did I hear someone say Fokkers?

  20. #320

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    Well, obviously the delays are not a nexus-only problem. The problem I really see is that a lack of interest may occur with the WoW Minis being almost sold out and the WoG releases falling behind.

    Smoothening the gap with re-releasing series 1 with new paint-schemes (the Dr. 1 and the Camel simplye are the most famous ww1 planes) would perhaps been the better choice.
    Now newbies to WoG will have to start from the 1915/16ish era. Less famous, technologically inferior machines (but of course a delight for people with already a substancial WoW collection).

  21. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by Du doch nicht! View Post
    Smoothening the gap with re-releasing series 1 with new paint-schemes (the Dr. 1 and the Camel simplye are the most famous ww1 planes) would perhaps been the better choice.
    That's a perfectly sensible plan of action in absence of the facts. The fact of the matter as that the series 5 planes were well into development at the time of the Nexus bankruptcy. These were the models with the shortest path to release. Ares has to re-create the molds for their series 1 re-release. If they had decided to go that direction for their first release, the planes would still be months out, and when they were finally released, they'd be likely to see tepid sales from the established customer base. I doubt Ares has the resources at the moment to be printing multiple sets simultaneously.

  22. #322

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    Well now we have a sure (?) date of release. Only 9 days away so have waited this long 9 days is nothing.

  23. #323

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    Wasn't it the plan that Ares releases one plane each month instead a whole series at once? This way we would have a steady flow of new models instead to wait half a year before there is something new.

  24. #324

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    That is their long term plan (last we heard), but they are still knocking out the "series" that Nexus already had in place.

  25. #325

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    That would be better not only for me as a gamer, but also for my LGS (luring me to come by more often to check out what's new).

    /Niclas

  26. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
    Wasn't it the plan that Ares releases one plane each month instead a whole series at once? This way we would have a steady flow of new models instead to wait half a year before there is something new.
    I would like to see pairs with the next WGF and WGS releases - Dr.1 and Camel, D.Va and SPAD, Bf110 and Beaufighter, CR42 and Gladiator.

    If Ares is still going to make three versions of each that would be six minis each release, they could likely stretch it to six-eight weeks between drinks and still maintain plenty of interest.

  27. #327

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    I like Carl's idea of pairs. Another idea could be one of each plane in the set over four months. They would have the modles so just the paint jobs would change.

  28. #328

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    I like your idea Bob! But, I doubt they will do that. Extra costs for all the different paint jobs.

  29. #329

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    I emailed Ares directly to ask about WOW / WOG stuff (being new to the game I don't have much and want more) and was told their UK distributor is a company called Esdevium.
    I had a look at their web site - not a mention of the game, so I emailed them for some information as to where to buy WOG. Their reply was to tell me the names of a couple of near (ish) shops and to point me to http://www.findyourgamestore.co.uk/.

    I must admit I wasn't feeling the love. I'll wait and see what happens towards the end of August as far as supply goes, but if the UK distributor can't be bothered with the game I don't hold out much hope for getting anything in this country.

  30. #330

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    In light of the other post on this subject issued by the Oberst today, I would suggest that block multiple pestering of our local stores to bully the supplier to get his act together is a ploy that could be used.
    Rob.

  31. #331

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    Not to mention the European retailers, who yet again get to find that by the time they can get their hands on the product, half of their potential customers have already succumbed to (entirely understandable) impatience and ordered from US sellers, especially as some of the latter are able to sell for less than the *wholesale* price this side of the pond, making them competitive even with trans-Atlantic shipping added on. Sorry if I sound jaded, but wearing my retail hat I'm seriously wondering if I'd be wiser not bothering this time....
    Begs the question how the US sellers are able to sell at less than UK wholesale prices?

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  33. #333

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    In light of the other post on this subject issued by the Oberst today, I would suggest that block multiple pestering of our local stores to bully the supplier to get his act together is a ploy that could be used.
    Rob.
    I can't honestly see it making a difference; I've been stocking Wings Of War, via Esdevium, since about the time Series 2 was released. They used to mail it out as "coming soon" with release dates, which were invariably over-run by Nexus. Given that, they stopped notifying pre-release, which is a hard decision to find fault with. I don't know for sure how the distribution chain is working since it became Wings Of Glory, but it's clear that once more the UK is at the bad end of it - we didn't have solid release dates for the new stuff, and can't even draw a reliable inference from the US release dates (Esdevium got their WW2 series 3, three weeks after US distributors, they got the WW1 bombers a whopping six weeks later.) Availability on the bombers was poor; possibly they got a limited first shipment, possibly they under-estimated demand, but either way they were back to fully available a few weeks after starting to go out of stock, so no long term problem. At this point I genuinely don't see what they can do to improve the situation - they're getting the product in, and letting retailers know when they do - given that, to the best of my knowledge, not a single release has EVER reached the UK as scheduled, that's really all they can do - sending out "coming soon" flyers to whip people up for a delivery date that passes without delivery is not a clever idea....

    As for their not pointing out WGF retailers when requested, that's simply not something they're in a position to do - Esdevium carry hundreds of product lines, and there's no ready way of checking which stockists carry any particular one of those hundreds. Not a case of "no love" but simply "no reasonably practical way of getting that information". So I'm really not sure what the goal of "bully the supplier to get his act together" is - WHAT do you think they can do better...?

    As I see it, there's absolutely no question of "will we even get Series 5" - yes Esdevium will get it, when they do it'll go on their new releases circular that shoots out to retailers every Friday, and we'll be able to order it to ship the following Monday, whenever that may be. UK retailers can get it no problem at all; just not as quickly as those elsewhere. There's no problem getting the product; let your usual retailer know to be watching out for it, and they can snap them up as soon as they go available. Rather the problems are:

    1. People are assuming their shops can't get it, when there's nothing to indicate any real problem there - yes the bombers flew into and out of stock quite rapidly, but (a) it was a temporary blip, and (b) it may be that others anticipated pent-up demand and ordered "heavy" like myself and have now learned their lesson and won't be doing so again, like myself....

    2. The UK is getting the product a substantial and variable time after the USA. Without knowing the exact ins and outs of this I'm not sure where "blame" lies, if there even is any to dole out, but I don't see how it can be Esdevium - the delays are in the product reaching the UK, which isn't in their hands, but rather Ares, the various shippers, and customs. Really there's no solution to this unless Ares is willing to adopt a global release date, if necessary sitting on inventory in some countries until it reaches others. This seems unlikely....

    3. Many UK customers are clearly ordering from overseas for their new releases, whether because they (wrongly) think the UK won't get it, or (rightly) think it'll be weeks after the USA, and they don't fancy waiting, leading to:

    4. Retailers are obviously going to think twice about *stocking* the next release; they may order less than usual, or they may skip it entirely, but times aren't great, and expensive stock that's likely to gather dust for some time is not a good investment. I'm certainly thinking hard about skipping Series 5, or I may just order a couple of each, rather than my usual 6-12 of each paint job minimum.

    None of this indicates a fundamental lack of UK availability - it may be a blip, and interest may perk up again when the "game" packs (ie. Series 1 reissues, with all the stuff NEW players need to get into the game properly) get to us. Alternatively it may be a trend, that people simply don't trust the supply chain any more, and those in a position to do so will simply order from overseas as soon as they see the product available. Either way the product's still available. What *might* change is the willingness of retailers to buy a pile when it's released and stack it on the shelves, rather than ordering a few bits when people express an interest.

    Whew, that turned out longer than I planned, sorry - time I logged out for a bit I suspect....
    Last edited by Dom S; 07-30-2012 at 03:38.

  34. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Begs the question how the US sellers are able to sell at less than UK wholesale prices?
    Several factors - US rrp is lower than UK, US obviously doesn't have VAT on there (obviously it should end up being charged on import, but, well, let's not go there) and I suspect that US retailers get a better level of discount than in the UK - just a guess on the latter, but the US trade model has always tended more to stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap, and their retailers generally seem to expect a discount level that would qualify as generous over here.

  35. #335

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    Thanks for that frank appraisal from the sales point of view Dom.
    It has cleared up several details that were uncertain.
    I don't know if it helps to rectify the problem in any respect, but at least it shows that it is not a fault caused at the U.K.distribution end of the chain.
    I have already pre ordered from the U.S. for the series 5 set but will hold fire on any later releases until I see which way the wind is blowing. I will also await the issue of series five over here before ordering any models for my enivitable host of repaints.
    Rob.

  36. #336

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    I too went states for series 5, purely as it did seem from the bombers that UK would either not get any at all or vastly inflated prices and low stocks and would miss the boat entirely.
    YesI fell for the panic hype. Thanks Dom your your seller insight. I will most likely get a few extras for repaints which I will get from uk, yes Dom most likely from yourself if you stock any.
    So it's just now a matter of waiting, hmmm heard that somewhere, to see what becomes available and in what numbers and price.
    In my own case the extras I'm looking at will be a couple of Moraines in total, plus 2 or 3 Halberstadts and DH2's in total.

  37. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    I too went states for series 5, purely as it did seem from the bombers that UK would either not get any at all or vastly inflated prices and low stocks and would miss the boat entirely.
    YesI fell for the panic hype. Thanks Dom your your seller insight. I will most likely get a few extras for repaints which I will get from uk, yes Dom most likely from yourself if you stock any.
    So it's just now a matter of waiting, hmmm heard that somewhere, to see what becomes available and in what numbers and price.
    In my own case the extras I'm looking at will be a couple of Moraines in total, plus 2 or 3 Halberstadts and DH2's in total.
    Like Chris I have ordered my series 5 from the US. If and when they arrive at my FLGS, which is not a certainty by any means, I will buy some extras for re-paints there.

    I just don't want to wait another 1-2 months.

  38. #338

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    Thanks Dom. Its no consolation I know, but you always offered excellent product & service.

    Can we get confirmation that the RRP is greater in the EU than the US, and maybe if there is a mood for some group action, we ask Ares the question "why?"

    The problem of course is as Dom highlighted in his earlier post, those of us in the UK who are waiting for product and who choose to buy in the US are not causing any loss to Ares, in fact our habit simply makes the problem worse as we artificially inflate US sales figures at the expense of EU sales. The losers are our local suppliers and shops (I hope Dom doesn't mind being named here, but the sad truth is that every model I buy in the US is one he doesn't get to sell.) In the UK we don't really have the US "FLGS" model - which provides product and gaming space. On the whole we game in local clubs, and buy our product at conventions or increasingly (almost exclusively now I suspect) on line. I have heard the howls of pain from US posters on the subject of "support your FLGS against the internet monster" and my response has on all occasions been "stuff that, I don't have a FLGS, and even if I did, I want somewhere to sell me stuff cheap, not at some inflated price".

    There is no easy answer for a consumer - actually there is - see abv, but it does mean that Dom and the other sellers he has unwittingly come to represent in this example will continue to lose sales. What is worse, Dom can't compete, not because he has higher margins, lacks the competetive urge or whatever, but because of (I suspect) the discounted wholesale price he is offered and the RRP is higher than that on offer to the US suppliers makes this an uneven playing field. Unless Ares address this, then sadly, Dom and his ilk are doomed (OK - maybe less melodramatically at least their sales will continue to be harmed). This will have some impact on sales, because not everyone will be comfortable with purchasing from "furriners" but I doubt that will be significant.

  39. #339

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Thanks Dom. Its no consolation I know, but you always offered excellent product & service.

    Can we get confirmation that the RRP is greater in the EU than the US, and maybe if there is a mood for some group action, we ask Ares the question "why?"
    VAT mate - that's a 20% higher price accounted for in a heartbeat. (Varies slightly around Europe, but most EU countries are somewhere in the range of 17-22%.) I don't know the current rrps on the continent or States-side, but right now the bombers are £27.99 here, and the WWII fighters £10.99 - I assume the latter will be true of WWI Series 5 - the customary discounting by most retailers should get them just under a tenner, but there's no competing with US discount levels. (If someone buys a bomber from me at 10% off and £1 P&P, by the time I've paid Paypal fees and subsidised the postage, my profit's four quid, on a £26 transaction, so there's not a whole lot more pruning to be done on the price really....)

    Of course importing from outside of the EU should get you VAT charged at point of entry, and a highly annoying £8 handling charge to boot, which together with the actual shipping cost across the pond will often equalise the costs, but (a) on big orders you're probably still better off, (b) you might "get lucky" and them miss the charge, much as that's rarer these days, and (c) well, you can probably figure out (c) - I'm not going there....
    Last edited by Dom S; 07-30-2012 at 06:38.

  40. #340

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    VAT mate - that's a 20% higher price accounted for in a heartbeat. (Varies slightly around Europe, but most countried are somewhere in the range of 15-22%.) I don't know the current rrps on the continent or States-side, but right now the bombers are £27.99 here, and the WWII fighters £10.99 - I assume the latter will be true of WWI Series 5.
    To me, it seems there's something seriously strange here.
    At my LGS, who are certainly not known for their low prices, I pay approx. £25.5 for bombers and £9.1 for WWII fighters - And Sweden has a 25% VAT. If the rrp is higher in GB than in Sweden, I can't help wondering what's going on.

    /Niclas

  41. #341

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    RRP on the scouts/fighters is $13.90 and the bombers are $34.95. Most retail stores have a 30-40% mark up (so they pay 60-70% of the MSRP (Manufactures Suggested Retail Price)).

    As for the US - EU/UK delay...



    As you can see, there are very few direct shipping routes between China and the EU/UK and almost all of it goes across the Pacific and through the Panama Canal and on to you guys. I'm not sure why that is, but it could account for the couple of weeks delay (and I'd think that the ship arrives at one location and then ships to nearby countries... so more shipping time and possibly more customs time as well). The longer shipping and possible multiple shipping "legs" would all add to the cost. Not a lot the local distributors and retails store (and Ares for that matter) can do about it.

  42. #342

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    For most game items, US retailers pay only 50-58% of the MSRP. Usually closer to the 50% mark.

    My FLGS got the WGF bombers at 51% of MSRP.

  43. #343

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    Sounds like your retailer gets a pretty good deal. My talks with distributors on carrying my Aerodrome Accessories products show that the distributor only wants the products at 60% off retail. What a store actually pays had a lot to do with his volume of sales though and most will not entertain carrying a product line that does not give them 40% markup.

  44. #344

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    Dom, have you decided to stock S5 or are you still debating?

  45. #345

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    Hmm - RRP in the US is $34.95, which is £22.30 by current exchange rates

  46. #346

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    Quote Originally Posted by redcoon2 View Post
    From my experience with overeseas shipments, the real wild card in the production/delivery cycle is clearing customs. Unlike personal items being carried thru customs, shipments go to a customs processing center and may take anywhere from two to three days to well over two months sitting in customs "awaiting processing". Reasons are as obscure as possible... [...] Not sure how customs works in Europe for such items but that's the big uncontrollable bump in setting shipping dates...production can be very smooth, then run aground at the customs center...makes life fun.
    As random as US ones. With Series 5, for what I heard an unexpected added delay has been caused by Chinese customs at the embarkement, that usually are quick and smooth (this of course influence both deliveries, USA and Europe).
    Weather is another random factor. In one of the last deliveries I remember that the European ship had a few days of delays because bad weather made entering in Leghorn's port (Italy) impossible. Then it finally landed... in the hands of customs.

  47. #347

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    So, £22.30 vs £27.99. I don't think that is too far off once you factor VAT in there as well as the extra distance of shipping and such. But I'm happy to continue to pay my lower amount

  48. #348

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    Well as i want thst this game is supported in Germany in german language i buy only from LGS or german online shops. So i will wait a bit longer then your guys over the pont

  49. #349

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    Interesting discussion. Not sure it actually helps anyone, but at least we have a few facts to knock around the park.... (FWIW Brit retailers get 35% discount, occasionally a little more when ordering 6+ of a single model, but not always even then - the bombers were capped at 35%.) I think I'll run with getting a couple of each in when Series 5 reaches Blighty, and seeing how it goes from there. Definitely not wading in with bulk orders this time, but I guess it's not time to completely give up yet either....

  50. #350

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    The issue with the shipment delays seems much clearer now. Thanks to Pseudotheist and especially for Angiolillo himself for taking the time!

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