Ares Games
Results 1 to 48 of 48

Thread: Comparing Plastics (WSF, WSF-P, and FD)

  1. #1

    Default Comparing Plastics (WSF, WSF-P, and FD)

    In an attempt to really compare the different materials, I recently order a SPAD VII in White Strong Flexible, White Strong Flexible - Polished, and Frosted Detail materials.

    Here are three shots of the same location on each plane.

    WSF (I almost do not want to use this model as it is a poor print)



    WSF-P



    You can see that the polishing really helps out the surface texture, but it kills almost all the detail on the plane as well

    FD



    The clear material makes it hard to photograph and see, but all of the detail is there (and crisper) and the surface is much smoother then both of the others. Of course, it is also more expensive too.

    I thought this might help some people out when trying to decide which material they want to go with. There are multiple photos of each of these planes in my album if anyone wants to see more.

  2. #2

    Default

    That's really helpful Keith - I may try FD in the future

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

    Hunter's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Terry
    Location
    Arizona
    Sorties Flown
    2,813
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default

    That's disconcerting, my later WSF planes look better than that one. WSF planes have steadily improved in quality in every order since my first last June. The only problem I've had was an 0/400 in WD and it was bad, which is why I've returned to WSF finish. Thanks for posting, Keith, to show the differences. I agree that FUD is probably the best finish but are more expensive and since, for me anyway, these are gaming pieces WSF is just fine pour moi.

  4. #4

    Default

    My WSF planes have gotten worse with each order, to the point where I may not even bother anymore.

  5. #5

    Default

    It's all about the print orientation guys. If they get that right, the model will look good. If they don't, it will not. If you can live with out the extra details on your "game pieces" Polishing might be the way to go. It's cheap like WSF but the polishing smooths out the surface a lot. But, as noted by others, how well they do the polishing depends on the person that does it

  6. #6

    Default

    Thanks for the info. I'm holding off untill Shapeways shows a real improvement on quality.

  7. #7

    Default

    Those are state of the art? They have been selling these for over a year now and they still look like factory rejects? Glad I have held off.

  8. #8

    Default

    I'm looking around at the alternatives and seriously considering uploading something to... i.materialise.

  9. #9

    Default

    The only bad thing with them John is that they require a thick wall. Most materials need at least 1mm. Might not work out for things like struts.

  10. #10

    Default

    Yep. The polyamide might work, since that is listed as 0.8/1mm. Of course, there's always titanium. Man, wouldn't that be cool!

  11. #11

    Default

    Yes, but this part puts me off that material:

    The surface has a sandy, granular look, and is slightly porous.

  12. #12

    Hunter's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
    Users Country Flag


    Name
    Terry
    Location
    Arizona
    Sorties Flown
    2,813
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default

    Titanium? Wow, who'da thunk.

  13. #13

    Default

    The differences in material can be clearly seen in Heer Oberst's photo's, (at this point I should mention that I buy shapeways as they are the only metal producers of aircraft for the 1916 period), I use WSF and my models have not been as rough as the one in the photo. I am with a bit of preperation able to get a decent model that is good enough for the games table. However that being said when Series 5 comes out I will be replacing the relevant shapeways models with the ARES ones.

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbmacek View Post
    I'm looking around at the alternatives and seriously considering uploading something to... i.materialise.
    John, I uploaded a 1/144 scale SPAD VII file that I had to them yesterday. It's "normal" price on Shapeways, but they want $48.23 for one out of High Detail Resin!

    No Thanks!

  15. #15

    Default

    Yeowch! Bag that! What about the Primer Grey material? That one looks really neat, but it does require 1mm walls, as I recall.

  16. #16

    Default

    This thread is great. As someone who has purchased several Shapeways I have to say in general Im pretty happy. As a model of detail? no, as a piece durable enough for the gaming table, yes. They require allot of prep, to be honest the more time you invest in priming and sanding the better overall look. Overall the good (for me) far out balences the negatives. Building a flight of N28's, and SPAD XIII ......... ready for decals (still havent dialed in a number source yet for the N28s...........need help........... anyone?)..........







    Ive tried the metal/lead kits and time invested to build and then repair just didnt wash.
    Last edited by Capt Croft; 03-22-2012 at 09:37.

  17. #17

    Default

    I bought three a/c in fud, a Alb dII,DrI and a DVIII and was not impressed considering the price,way too much work involved.they looked very nice till I got a coat of primer on them,then the flaws came out,stepping, grainy etc,I might try some more but a little timid...

  18. #18

    Default

    Even with FUD it's still a hit or miss with Shapeways. I also think some of the model designs cause issues. I've ordered several Dr.Is in different material and none of them are ever great. The few Fokker D.VIIs I've ordered have all be nice... the FUD ones have all been nice. The "kit" version was super nice.

  19. #19

    Default

    Thanks for the info,a DVII is next on my list as well as a Sopwith tripe I'll probably go with wsf because it can't be much more work than the other three were,I'll send pics when I'm able

  20. #20

    Default

    I'm getting ready to paint some Roland D.IIs, and after I prepped one with Pledge, I noticed how different it looked when compared to the unprepped mini. So, I took a pic...



    It almost looks like it is out of focus, but it's really that much smoother.

  21. #21

    Default

    So do y'all like the Shapeway planes better than the metal planes out there?

  22. #22

    Default

    Me? Yes, by a long sea mile. The metal planes are always hit and miss, at least with Shapeways I know a) I'm going to have to contend with the graininess and not much else and b) if it is a bad print, the fine folks at Shapeways will do the right thing. Hell, a week or two ago the gave me credit on a misprint, and the misprint was in my design. I told them they didn't have to do that, but they did, just the same.

  23. #23

    Default

    Having just dropped a plane while painting, I should also like to point out that Shapeways planes usually bounce, whereas metal planes bend and break.

  24. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Blake View Post
    So do y'all like the Shapeway planes better than the metal planes out there?
    A big plus for me is that, like the Nexus/Ares planes, Shapeway comes assembled (though Kampffleiger has a 7 part D.7 in his stable).
    While this can cause some different issues, like trying to put whole wing decals on the bottom wing, but that's much better than trying to assemle 1/44th scale biplanes.
    Karl

  25. #25

    Default

    As a further illustration, here are two pictures comparing my 1/144 Junkers J.I model in FUD and WSF. I was obsessed enough to model the corrugated metal covering the wings when I created the model. (The models are the same except that the struts and undercarriage on the WSF model are thicker, to meet material-minimums). The corrugations are clearly visible in the FUD picture (it has been washed and primed); but the WSF wing is basically featureless and fuzzy, losing that fine detail.

    Of course, the FUD model costs about 3x the WSF model, so you really have to pay for the extra accuracy.

    On the good side, I remember what a Blu-Ray player cost when it first came out...perhaps the price of 3D printing will drop dramatically as time passes?

    -- ReducedAircraftFactory

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	002.JPG 
Views:	562 
Size:	74.8 KB 
ID:	74736

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	001.JPG 
Views:	557 
Size:	63.7 KB 
ID:	74737

  26. #26

    Default

    A very interesting contrast between the two media Reduced.
    Oh! and bye the way welcome to the Drome.
    Rob.

  27. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    On the good side, I remember what a Blu-Ray player cost when it first came out...perhaps the price of 3D printing will drop dramatically as time passes?
    We can only hope and pray (then all my models ships will become much more affordable)

    I did experiment with a triple FE-8 model for FUD only and that did work out at a reasonable price per model but you would need to want 3 of them.

  28. #28

    Default

    Paul, I have your FE-8 models and the price for three in FUD is a bargain. They are very nicely done and are in my painting queue.

  29. #29

    Sanguinary Dan
    Guest


    Default

    As I'm quite new to both the board and have never ordered from Shapeways I'd like to ask a few questions.

    1) Are there specific designers to look to or to look out for? I want to start small (8-10 planes total) and would hate to have gorgeous models flying next to green army man equivalents.

    2) Over the last year have they made progress to your minds in which materials provide the best models?

    3) Can y'all suggest some good video tutorials on prepping and painting these types of models?

    Thanks in advance and I'll see you in the skies.

  30. #30

    Default

    Hey everyone,

    I think I would like to try my hand at a few shapeways models as well. But I noticed their are now even more material options. Has anyone tried Alumide or any other materials?

    I just don't really know what material to get stuff ordered in anymore with all of the discussions as of late.

    Michael

  31. #31

    Default

    The only other material I have tried is White Detail.

    You could try one of each and report your findings back here.

  32. #32

    Default

    I've been testing various materials and each has its strengths and weaknesses. Here's a quick summary of what I've found (some of which has been said already).

    WSF - It's really strong and light so ideal for the games table. On the negative side it takes a bit of preparation as the material absorbs paint. A few coats of diluted PVA or Klear floor polish work well to seal the plane but often needs a few coats of paint and varnish for a smooth finish.

    WSF Polished - All the advantages of WSF, still needs sealing but less paint needed as the surface is already smooth. Negative - Loss of detail in the polishing process, saying that though, some larger planes have mainly flat surfaces and no detail to lose.

    Detail - A smooth finish and great detail. Ok for a games table. I just undercoated and painted. I really liked my test of this and I've more in my next order. Negative - more brittle than WSF but ok.

    FUD - Incredible detail, just undercoat and paint. Ideal for pilots and Lewis guns where I often use a permanent marker. Negative - Not that tough, you wouldn't want your planes falling on the floor or bits may snap off and struts may break.

    I hope my experiences help.

    Ian

  33. #33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    I've been testing various materials and each has its strengths and weaknesses. Here's a quick summary of what I've found (some of which has been said already).

    WSF - It's really strong and light so ideal for the games table. On the negative side it takes a bit of preparation as the material absorbs paint. A few coats of diluted PVA or Klear floor polish work well to seal the plane but often needs a few coats of paint and varnish for a smooth finish.

    WSF Polished - All the advantages of WSF, still needs sealing but less paint needed as the surface is already smooth. Negative - Loss of detail in the polishing process, saying that though, some larger planes have mainly flat surfaces and no detail to lose.

    Detail - A smooth finish and great detail. Ok for a games table. I just undercoated and painted. I really liked my test of this and I've more in my next order. Negative - more brittle than WSF but ok.

    FUD - Incredible detail, just undercoat and paint. Ideal for pilots and Lewis guns where I often use a permanent marker. Negative - Not that tough, you wouldn't want your planes falling on the floor or bits may snap off and struts may break.

    I hope my experiences help.

    Ian
    Hi Ian, have you found a good source for pilots, gunners and guns (or any of the three) on Shapeways? I am looking for some.

  34. #34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tusekine View Post
    Hi Ian, have you found a good source for pilots, gunners and guns (or any of the three) on Shapeways? I am looking for some.
    Lewis guns:
    https://www.shapeways.com/model/5419...ductBox-search

    Pilots
    https://www.shapeways.com/model/7501...ductBox-search

    Or

    https://www.shapeways.com/model/8746...ductBox-search

    Observers

    https://www.shapeways.com/model/8746...ductBox-search

    And

    https://www.shapeways.com/model/8746...ductBox-search

    Other options for pilots and gunners are Peter Pig (my favorite) and Reverisco.

    I also find these small bombs look good on a two seater.

    https://www.shapeways.com/model/5443...ductBox-search

    Ian

  35. #35

    Default

    I have the Decapod pilots and observers. Since they are FUD they are very brittle. I broke many observers guns and a couple of the pilots just getting them off the sprue. I put one observer in a Fe2 and if it should get knocked over I'm pretty sure the gun will break.

  36. #36

    Za Rodinu
    Guest


    Default

    Hello!

    I never ordered anything from Shapeways or other printshop, but do you have an idea on how do the several materials behave in what concerns durther work, like sawing, sanding, drilling, etc?

    For instance, polyurethane resin and polystirene (plastic kit) are fine, but polythene (soft "Airfix soldier") is terrible.

    Thanks!!

  37. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Za Rodinu View Post
    Hello!

    I never ordered anything from Shapeways or other printshop, but do you have an idea on how do the several materials behave in what concerns durther work, like sawing, sanding, drilling, etc?

    For instance, polyurethane resin and polystirene (plastic kit) are fine, but polythene (soft "Airfix soldier") is terrible.

    Thanks!!
    I've found that the detail materials can break when drilling or filing but WSF is much more durable and can be cut, drilled and sanded easily. After trying all the options I only ever buy WSF and WSF polished now.

    Ian

  38. #38

    Za Rodinu
    Guest


    Default

    Thank you very much, Ian, this is much better than going in blind

  39. #39

    Default

    Being new to this affair I appreciate all the info. Had been contemplating a Shapeways order but the inconsistency of the pictured craft was vexing to say the least. Though it is pretty easy to tell that the fud material renders a better detailed plane. At the moment I'm going to stay with the "official" aircraft and look to pick up some of the older models I would like to own, even though they will most likely cost a bit more.

  40. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by prymus View Post
    Being new to this affair I appreciate all the info. Had been contemplating a Shapeways order but the inconsistency of the pictured craft was vexing to say the least. Though it is pretty easy to tell that the fud material renders a better detailed plane. At the moment I'm going to stay with the "official" aircraft and look to pick up some of the older models I would like to own, even though they will most likely cost a bit more.
    The quality of the Shapeways planes has really improved over the last couple years....you'll probably find horror stories of "stepping" if you go back a ways. But lately I've been nothing but pleased with their output. You can see several good examples of Shapeways planes in the examples here, both painted and unpainted.

  41. #41

    Default

    Hey William, next time you come down hill let me know, we can meet and I can show you the Shapeways line first hand I have over 200+ of them. :

  42. #42

    Default

    The Biplane is Shapeways WSF. The Yak is Ares plastic/metal. The P-39 is AIM resin. The I-16 - I don't know, I have both AIM and Shapeways WSF ones.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Photo0314.jpg 
Views:	311 
Size:	224.8 KB 
ID:	132203

    The Do-17 is AIM resin. The I-15bis is Shapeways WSF.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Photo0326crop.jpg 
Views:	309 
Size:	225.5 KB 
ID:	132204

    As I'm quite new to both the board and have never ordered from Shapeways I'd like to ask a few questions.

    1) Are there specific designers to look to or to look out for? I want to start small (8-10 planes total) and would hate to have gorgeous models flying next to green army man equivalents.
    All of the 3D models started out as direct copies from 3-views.
    They then got modified so conform to the ability of Shapeways to print them. This is an art, not a science.

    I find the Reduced Aircraft Factory ones to be testing the boundaries of "thin". They look the best, but need careful work to straighten after transit, and need a lot of "monocoque" strengthening with PVA, Pledge, or other surface preparation.

    On the other hand, at distances over 3 inches it's not possible to see the difference with the naked eye.

    Kampflieger is the most robust. Struts a little thick, but again, over 3" it doesn't matter.

    Basically, the only way I can tell identical products by different designers apart is by the way they're based on the pegs. At least, after I've painted them.

    2) Over the last year have they made progress to your minds in which materials provide the best models?
    I go for WSF only. Personal preference due to robustness for gaming, and secondarily price.

    3) Can y'all suggest some good video tutorials on prepping and painting these types of models?
    Maybe I should make one...

  43. #43

    Default

    The last thing that I designed, and painted - a 15mm scale grav rover for Traveller (scifi rpg for those who may not know the name).



    If anyone tries to tell you that painted WSF comes out grainy, well... as you can see it ain't so.
    Last edited by jbmacek; 05-07-2014 at 04:54.

  44. #44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    I go for WSF only. Personal preference due to robustness for gaming, and secondarily price.
    I couldn't agree more. I have dropped WSF planes from heights that would have totally destroyed planes made in just about anything else. They bounce, and I have yet to see one break.

  45. #45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbmacek View Post
    I couldn't agree more. I have dropped WSF planes from heights that would have totally destroyed planes made in just about anything else. They bounce, and I have yet to see one break.
    I also agree. I do opt for the polished option when available. I've given up with FUD (Fragile Ultra Detail) and FD (Fragile Detail) as it's just too brittle.

    Ian

  46. #46

    Default

    So, resurrecting a dead thread, in the last four years have the materials used changed all that much? Or, are the above observations on detail and robustness still holding true for the various materials?

  47. #47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BwanaJoe View Post
    So, resurrecting a dead thread, in the last four years have the materials used changed all that much? Or, are the above observations on detail and robustness still holding true for the various materials?
    I find that Shapeways has gotten a lot more consistent: it used to be more common to get an occasional plane with severe stepping or other problems. But the materials haven't changed much, and the HP materials still are not generally available (as of this writing).

  48. #48

    Default

    Likewise I've held off on buying Shapeways models as I didn't care much for the quality of many of the printings I've seen. Yes, these are essentially game pieces but part of what always attracted me to this game was the general high quality of the game pieces. I'd be interested to learn if FD printed planes have improved much.



Similar Missions

  1. Comparing Apples with Oranges
    By Baxter in forum Hobby Room
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-30-2015, 11:18
  2. Comparing Planes to One Another for Scenarios
    By ptownhiker in forum WGS: House Rules
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 10-12-2014, 04:17
  3. Comparing Mythologies - Pfalz III
    By Blackronin in forum Paper Card Models
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-30-2012, 13:10
  4. Comparing Mythologies
    By Blackronin in forum Paper Card Models
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-30-2012, 13:05
  5. Comparing AEG G.IV's
    By tonyc206 in forum Hobby Room
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-02-2011, 07:03

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •