Exactly. My MvR was lucky to get one shot on the rookie. Then he was chasing a rabbit he couldn't catch.Originally Posted by flash
Exactly. My MvR was lucky to get one shot on the rookie. Then he was chasing a rabbit he couldn't catch.
Mmmmmm I guess it did depend on the order in which the rookie drew its' cards. My rookie almost got shot to ribbons. If MvR hadn't exited stage right when he did, with engine damage to boot, then I'm pretty certain he'd have downed the rookie.
Thanks for the heads up on mission 14. Haven't played thirteen yet but shall start it tomorrow. Looking forward to it.
We have problems with tail chases when writing scenarios, for example, when taking on most two-seater machines, unless you start the match up in contact, or close to it, you may find that the attacker either cannot catch the beggar or if he does it's too late to stop him escaping reasonably unscathed. The alternative is to doctor the 'victims' movement ie adding stalls, manoeuvres, mechanics that allow the attacker to get into range before the target can react to his presence.
This is due to most two seat models having 'average speed' - ie K, V, W decks.
Most later scout types have 'fast speed' so will gain 3.6cm per game turn on an 'average speed' machine. The ruler is 19.6cm (?) so if you want to be in contact within the first turn you want to start with about 20cm between bases (taking into account the peg is halfway along a base ie 3.4cm).
The reverse is true in this scenario - you need to start within range as the faster scout will out run you eventually but this was nicely covered by the Rookie's deck with the stalls - that inserted that element of doubt: will he out run the Baron before significant damage can be done ?!
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
I've edited the post with the counters for Bitter End Mission 14. Working on too many projects at the same time!
Cheers Peter, understood
OTT BE Reflections
More food for thought I’m afraid! Following on from the completion of Mission 13.
Recently, I asked a respected member of this forum what he thought of “Solo Campaigns”. The response was negative! “Why?” I enquired. “Because solo players always win!” was the reply, or more or less.
Of course, he is right, most of the time! And the result of my latest solo mission is no exception. But why? Did I cheat? I like to think not! Was I biased in my selection of moves, order of dishing out damage cards etc? Well I rigidly stick to a process. Damage against my side always first and short hits before long. So the rest is down to the luck of the draw! As for manoeuvering. Well there, maybe, lies the answer.
Having control over one aircraft gives a big advantage, and I’m not likely to choose an opposition aircraft for that priviledge, am I
At the end of the day, it is just a game I suppose. There for my enjoyment! So what if I win. But I realize that I am not alone in wanting the experience to be a little more than just a game! So what can I do to make the results more impartial? And might doing that attract more players?
One suggestion I would make, for the OTT campaign at least, is not to always force an AI machine to base its’ movement on the nearest “enemy”. For example, if a pilot has trouble with jammed guns, or is trying to re-load. Is he likely to want to engage the nearest enemy, unless it is to maintain contact with one that is fleeing? I think not. Why not try to head for a reasonably safe area if possible. The same selection of manoeuver cards can be used. Just the direction upon which that selection is based needs to change, perhaps.
Also, I’m still uncertain how to use the altitude rules, especially the dive and climb cards, for AI aircraft, particularly for the enemy. How do I do that impartially? I did it today, at a point where I just believed the enemy had no real option, if he were to survive. But in so doing, did I introduce too much bias?
I understand that rules are there to be broken, but is that the reason others do not like solo gaming – because the rules are too predictable and unfair in their opinion? Personally I enjoy the experience a great deal, but I would like to think I could play solo missions on a more level, and possibly more interesting, playing field! So if I am doing things wrong, can somebody please point out the error(s) of my way(s).
My AAR for mission 13 will follow. eventually
Cheers
Mike
PS One final problem I had – interpreting the limited ammunition rules. If a Camel has Vickers machine guns, does it have unlimited rounds in the game? And an Se5 has both a Lewis and a Vickers. OK so the Lewis has the rule, of six bursts of fire, applied. But what about the Vickers?
In the end, I applied the “six rounds” rule to both Camels and SE5s regardless of the type of MG armament– It didn’t make a lot of difference, but I’d still like it if somebody could clear that matter up for me – thanks.
M
I must be terrible then as I seem to lose as many as I win.
I don't think having control of one plane is too much of an advantage. I think its more of the scenario design. Some tend to be quite easy to win, then there are some not so. I'm all for difficult missions that are tilted towards the AI side. (see 'Escorting Trouble' from Early Doors Campaign, I don't think anyone won that one.)
I try to test my scenarios 5-10 times before posting to get the balance close or slightly towards the AI.
If you find the scenario too easy you could easily add in an enemy plane or two!
I don't use altitude as much as possible as I see it as an advantage. How can any bias be kept out and keep the planes flying realistically?
For scenario 13 I only flew one plane. I thought the sides were too close to have such an advantage. If we are outnumbered by quite a bit then maybe flying two would work for me.
Last edited by Teaticket; 08-02-2017 at 05:56.
Just a quick reply Mike.
I always alter the move of an enemy machine if it seems to be bad, or looks just plain stupid.
On climb and dive. Whatever my aircraft does if enemy follows it will do the same two cards later even if they are not straights. this keeps them in touch unless you over dive to escape in which case I make them correct flight before executing that move. Most of my games are conducted with a lot of I in the AI.
Still we usually win, because the AI have to react to moves that we can plan for, and they are just reacting to our previous position.
Try to lose with your own side sometime! It can be just as difficult. I got one of my best games ever using this strategy.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
On the contrary, I don't believe I have ever found a single scenario too easy. This wasn't a critisism of the mission. It was simply that I felt the "enemy", in this case the Central Powers DVIIs, were beaten because I had too much advantage controlling two Camels. My fault entirely as I didn't have to I guess. That then reminded me of the comment passed by another member, about Solo players always winning. As you say, I could always have changed things had I wanted to. Just food for thought that's all!If you find the scenario too easy
Thanks for the feedback
Hi Mike, sorry I missed this one. You played it right. I think your questions have been well answered by others. Although the Camel is faster the use of the selected cards means the Fokker can keep up. May's own account tells he threw his aircraft around turning this way and that to avoid the Triplane's fire, without any real plan. This is nicely reflected by the random nature of the auto movement rules.
Mike, I just reread the Mission 13 briefing. It said you can control the Ace plane plus 1 other. It doesn't say that both planes have to be yours, so I am going to play it as I control one from each side, that way neither side will have a major advantage over the other.
Personally I have enjoyed all the scenarios we have done so far whether I won, lost or played to a draw. Part of the enjoyment is the writing of the AARs and trying to come up with new ideas for the next one.
I've shown and explained Wings to several people while doing the solo missions at the local game store, including our churches pastor. Most of the people were more interested in playing Magic than they were wanting to play Wings. On the other hand, our church had a game night this past Saturday night and when I did finally get to show up late my pastor wanted to know if I had brought my airplane game.
So even if you play Wings solo, getting one person to show any interest is an accomplishment today in a World where people don't want to visualize or try to think two or three moves ahead.
As with most players I prefer face to face games because that is where your mettle is truly tested. The solo experience can assist with that as it gives you practice using the system - getting to know the rules and the capabilities of the selected aircraft in a no stress environment. 'Your' pilot will usually have the advantage - except when the card gods decide otherwise. I have had 'my' aircraft shot down in the first exchange by drawing an explosion card. My See Adlers 'win' most games, but have also come off second best. I keep things on an even keel by planning moves for personal aircraft first before plotting AI manoeuvres, keeping the card drawer the same each time (I give out my damage cards first then take the return fire) and add climbs and dives if it makes sense to do so. I also have a rule where if the enemy force has lost 50% of its aircraft the rest try to break off and head for home no matter what their status.On the contrary, I don't believe I have ever found a single scenario too easy. This wasn't a critisism of the mission. It was simply that I felt the "enemy", in this case the Central Powers DVIIs, were beaten because I had too much advantage controlling two Camels. My fault entirely as I didn't have to I guess. That then reminded me of the comment passed by another member, about Solo players always winning. As you say, I could always have changed things had I wanted to. Just food for thought that's all!
Thanks for the feedback
As for the ammo question for most games it is only the magazine fed Lewis guns (47 or 98 rounds) that is usually an issue. Most belt fed machine guns had 500 rounds per gun which equals 60 seconds of firing, or 30 two second bursts. With each manoeuvre about two seconds you would have to shoot 30 times to deplete your supply - I don't think I have ever had that happen in a game.
Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 08-02-2017 at 00:49.
Well chaps, just my thoughts on Solo Games:
As those who read my recent AAR's will know, I had two Losses both involving my allied 2 seaters. Both falling to Boom cards before they could attack their targets so its really the Card Draw that decides!
Regarding Altitude. Like Rob I give the opposition a Climb or Dive if my Aircraft do that. Its only senseable that the Eneny would follow their opponent!
Also like Rob & others I will modify or re roll most times if the chart makes a AI controlled aircraft do something that looks "stupid"!
I really cant agree that Solo Games always give a Win to the Player.
I try to keep it as random as possible for damage card draws. Each plane gets a different colored die. I roll all at once those that are shooting. High roll shoots first and then down the line. This way I also have no question on who gets the kill shot.
Well as most of you playing Over the Trenches can attest, I, for one, don't "win all the time".
To the contrary, for the most part.
The exception was the last Mission where my newly-introduced D.VIIs ruled the skies.
(Lucky 13?)
I have had 8 Adler pilots/observers KIA (2 came back in Early Doors Mission 20) and 2 POW, versus 8 Bulldogs KIA and 5 POW.
Like others have mentioned I always intercede as the "I in AI when the first generated move does not seem realistic.
A pilot with guns jammed will fly off to a safe space to clear them instead of facing a likely ugly situation chasing the actual enemy plane.
I also have started using the optional single gun jam option on occasion; for AI aircraft a die roll determines whether the pilot will clear the jam or fire from the "B" deck.
I used limited ammo for the first time for the SE5as in the last mission, although I suppose it could also fit the gun jam scenario and just fire the Vickers.
It didn't come up so was neither here nor there.
The only local gaming group I know of always plays on Sunday afternoons which I like to keep for "family time", so it's pretty much always solo for me.
My son was down last weekend and we played a single 1 on 1 game where my luck from my previous mission held on.
My Nieuport 17 shot down his Albatros D.II without him ever getting a shot at me.
Granted, I wounded his pilot with the first burst ...
P.S. Forgot the altitude question.
I use Dave's simplified rules. If an aircraft is higher or lower and fires I have them climb or dive one peg to get toward the same altitude.
Last edited by Stumptonian; 08-01-2017 at 20:54.
Reflecting Back !
I wonder if the respected member of this forum has played OTT ?!
As usual we have control of one aircraft - unlike Mike when I lose that aircraft I don't take over another I play out the game in AI only. In mission 13 I flew just one plane (against the scenario rules), spent most of it spinning & then, having recovered before leaving the battle space, was promptly shot down. I finished the game AI only. Personally I call that a loss whatever the end result as I was shot down but enjoyed the rest of the AI joust.
I don't always base the AI movement on the nearest enemy - that's nonsensical in some situations - but rather on what's best for the AI at that time, eg I won't turn away from a sitter just because it's not the nearest enemy, though in the example given of jammed guns sometimes chasing the other plane is the safest place to be !
As I always say this plays better if you are the I in AI - I use my own altitude rules and apply the same ideas to that but the default 'nosing up/down' takes care of a lot of that, sometimes machines cannot fire due to their attitude... that can be frustrating.
So relax the AI rules a little Mike, use the predictive method for card selection ie fly to where they're gonna be not where they are and you might find a shift in the playing field.... play a game where you are not flying one of the planes
Now for interpreting the limited ammunition rules: If a Camel has Vickers machine guns, does it have unlimited rounds in the game?
Essentially yes for game purposes. Each Vickers has a belt of 500 rounds, its rate of fire is 450-500 rpm before it is interrupted so compared to the Lewis it has 5 times the ammo and the rof is slower. It will therefore fire for much longer - say 5 or 6 times longer ? In the game if one plane gets 5 or 6 shots off it's doing well, to get 30+ off is an unlikely event !
It's a nuance of Lewis equipped machines and an optional rule for those that wish to use it to represent that. Hope that clears the matter up.
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
Many thanks indeed for all the feedback. I have, in fact, already adopted a lot of the advice that you are giving, and have been doing so for a while, as and when I pick up tips from various of you
I like this one Carl - I'll give it a try if it seems appropriate. I think it would have been the right thing for my Mission 13, but I'm not going to replay that now. Next time then! (PS thanks for the reply to Mission 12 question too. Glad i got that right).I also have a rule where if the enemy force has lost 50% of its aircraft the rest try to break off and head for home no matter what their status.
No, Dave, not to my knowledge. Again, this was never meant to be a critisism of him or anything else. Some gamers simply do not enjoy solo gaming. I'm interested in their reasons, because I enjoy it so much and am therefore always looking for possible improvements. Even to the extent of encouraging their possible future participation. I'd like to share my enjoyment.I wonder if the respected member of this forum has played OTT ?
Re the ammo rules - thanks. That is now perfectly clear. I did make errors in Mission 13 over this issue, but that would only have benefited the opposition - so all's well that lands well!
Lots for me to think about then! Many thanks again - you are a very helpful lot
Mike
Yeah, it's horses for courses for sure, I just wonder what their experience of solo gaming is.
If you look at OTT we do win maybe more than we should; the pilots certainly survive more than they should but that's a deliberate mechanism so the story tellers can get their characters built up, there's no secret about that.
Maybe we should do a twenty minuter's campaign with more stringent crash/wound rolls ?!
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
For all the OTTers (or anyone else!) I have just posted an AAR of Mission 14. It is meant to be a tutorial for the night rules I am introducing. Each move/photo has the spotting implications beneath. It hopefully will clear up any questions you have. If not feel free to ask me any questions you may have about spotting.
When everyone gets to fly this mission I would love to hear any feedback. I will post the night rules for everyone in the files after I have cleaned them up after feedback is in.
Thanks!
Many thanks Peter
Mike, if you just look at the photos and read below the photos you will get the spotting rules explanations. You can avoid my AAR that way!Many thanks Peter
I know what you mean about not wanting other's AARs influencing your own. I try not to read any until I finish mine.
Thanks Peter - very kind. But don't fret. I've copied all of the original instructions, together with the pics, and printed them off. I'll keep them by me and use them as I go along. Hopefully I won't make too many errors of interpretationMike, if you just look at the photos and read below the photos you will get the spotting rules explanations. You can avoid my AAR that way!
Looking forward to this one.
Cheers
mike
Gentlemen, please join me in welcoming Edward (Kustenjaeger) to the OTT Mess as the latest pilot to join the Bulldogs in the OTT Bitter End Campaign - wish him and his chaps luck in their endeavours for King and Country !
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
Welcome to the front Edward. Uncle will set you up. If there are any questions we're all here to help.
Bienvenue to the campaign Edward , but I do detect a certain German nomenclature in your Avatar are you sure you wish to fly with the RAF
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing
Welcome Edward to the good side. Enjoy the flying.
. G'day Edward & welcome to the Western Front in 1918! Good to have new pilots on the Roster.
Welcome, Edward.
Like Paul I expected to hear you were joining the Adlers.
You never know. Maybe a sheep in wolf's clothing?Welcome, Edward.
Like Paul I expected to hear you were joining the Adlers.
Interesting fact....in 1917 the House of Windsor came into being. Previously the name was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Having the same name as the Gotha bombers that were dropping death from the sky was, uncomfortable for the Royal Family to say the least.
Thats England for you. We claim to be pure bred and true but the last "King" of England before the French beat us up in 1066 was an Angle /Saxon We are a mongrel race, the most recent royal additions being as you say Germanic, but the Dutch were there before them
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing
Normans, not French. Vikings who had beat up on the French a few hundred years earlier (and my ancestors - 1066 was the rightful claiming of the throne, not an invasion
Isn't perspective a wonderful phenomenon? Best part of my job...Normans, not French. Vikings who had beat up on the French a few hundred years earlier (and my ancestors - 1066 was the rightful claiming of the throne, not an invasion
French is as generic a term as British is .Ask the Bretons or the Normands who they are.
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing
More like a game of Risk with all the alliances thinking they had a a claim to the throne.Normans, not French. Vikings who had beat up on the French a few hundred years earlier (and my ancestors - 1066 was the rightful claiming of the throne, not an invasion
No matter it did little to help the Brexit remain groups , then or now
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing
I wonder what they thought themselves as being then?
And what on earth has Brexit got to do with it????
Well, well. By now you'll be wondering what you just walked into Edward
I'm posting the next mission today, because there just won't be time tomorrow. So Happy New Year to you all and I hope you enjoy Mission 18
Gentlemen ! Please join me in welcoming Chris (Fast.git) back to the OTT Mess - he will be rejoining the Eagles for the Bitter End and doing his worst for the Kaiser against American & French Bulldogs
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
Welcome back, Chris.
Glad you came back to the good side.
Hope you stick around for the next "Punch Up"planned for when the current Campaign finishes around the middle of the year.
Welcome back Chris. Hopefully we can keep you fighting at the front for a mission or two this time around.
Welcome back Chris - good to have you with us. The Eagles need you
Welcome back Chris. The Eagles can use an experienced pilot.
Welcome to the Mess again Chris.
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing
Looking forward to mission 19 Pete
Pete has it ready to post for today sometime if all has gone to plan Mike but I have no spoilers.
Mine will be delayed also as my table is down for a few weeks & I have Beachhead oncoming !
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
Table down
I'm off to the US on Sunday for a week for business and then off to Spain for a week to see our son and his girlfriend (and their two kittens). So I won't be getting to the next scenario until the end of the month.
Last weekend we saw a cat at a local cat sanctuary who was there because she damaged her owner's model train... Luckily someone adopted her quickly as otherwise my WoG planes might have been at risk! Our actual little feline adoptee, who arrived today, is quite shy so I think it will be a while before he is interested in batting planes off the table ...
Regards
Edward
My step-daughter has surgery today, but I hope to get it posted this evening.
Dust off your “Harry Tate” or other 2-Seater ...
Best wishes for your Daughter's surgery today Pete, and also your trip Edward.
meanwhile here is a picture of our cat at his best. He has calmed down a lot as he has got older.
The human is my younger son. No one actually covered over the cat. He must have done it himself.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Pete, all the best for your daughters surgery today. I really hope she has a quick recovery. Safe travels Edward - enjoy your break in Spain and success in the U.S.A.
As for your cat Rob, he looks really laid back. How cool is that
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