Official Unofficial Stats V.3.1 Beta available

[Zoe Brain]

Version 3.1 contains many new aircraft compared to version 3.0.

We now cover all but a handful of the SRAM kits, plus the complete Shapeways, Skytrex and Reviresco catlogue as of this morning - including the new AEG G.IVk

Version 3.1.1 is planned to fill in the last gaps in the SRAM range, plus the expected new Shapeways releases. After that, we transition to maintenance, adding new releases monthly, and possibly providing links to aircraft cards suitable for printing out.

Remember this is a Beta version, and we rely on you all to have a look through it, query why we've made the decisions we did, and help us correct any errors. You may know more about one particular type than we do.

We've included the Roland D.XVI, but as with the Austin Osprey, it never saw service, and unlike the Osprey, insufficient data was available to make a satisfactory estimate of any hypothetical production version's performance. So unlike everything else, this one's guesswork.

FAQ:

The Albatros W.IV was ~200kg (~25%) heavier than the D.I, so is not really of fighter manoeuvrability.

The Fokker D.I damage was downgraded to reflect its habit of shedding its wings - the reason why it was removed from service.


Have fun.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thanks once again Zoe for the update and thanks also go to the rest of the team for carrying out this extra work.
Rob.

[john snelling]

Thanks for the great work. John

[Bruce]

A major contribution to the site. Rep points to the group.
Thank you all.

[Pooh]

Hi guys,

I'd like to add my thanks to all who made this list possible.

We played a senario last week using shapeways planes and as I checked stats I came up with some questions.

The Vickers Gunbus had a top speed of about 60 mph while the Caudron G4 could go about 80 mph. You assign them both the XC deck. I looked at the Caproni Ca3 which also goes about 80 and it has the faster XD deck. For the game I assigned the Caudron the XD deck and it worked out great making the Gunbus being the slowest plane in the air.
Another plane we used was the FE2b. It is assigned the K deck although it also maxed out in the 80 mph range. I felt the K deck was too fast the FE2b and assigned it the G deck minus the immelman. This made the FE2b roughly the same speed as most of the other planes out there which also felt right.

I did use the group suggestion and give the halberstadt DII the P deck and the EIIIs the R deck. I also used the group's climb & hp numbers which the group felt were spot on.

Note: for speed information I relied on the 2 or 3 reference books available to me that has early war planes which may or may not be accurate.

Pooh

Note 2: This isn't intended as a critizism but just additional comment. You guys have done a tremendous job making these planes playable in the Wings of Glory system.

[gully_raker]

Hi guys,

I'd like to add my thanks to all who made this list possible.

We played a senario last week using shapeways planes and as I checked stats I came up with some questions.

The Vickers Gunbus had a top speed of about 60 mph while the Caudron G4 could go about 80 mph. You assign them both the XC deck. I looked at the Caproni Ca3 which also goes about 80 and it has the faster XD deck. For the game I assigned the Caudron the XD deck and it worked out great making the Gunbus being the slowest plane in the air.
Another plane we used was the FE2b. It is assigned the K deck although it also maxed out in the 80 mph range. I felt the K deck was too fast the FE2b and assigned it the G deck minus the immelman. This made the FE2b roughly the same speed as most of the other planes out there which also felt right.

I did use the group suggestion and give the halberstadt DII the P deck and the EIIIs the R deck. I also used the group's climb & hp numbers which the group felt were spot on.

Note: for speed information I relied on the 2 or 3 reference books available to me that has early war planes which may or may not be accurate.

Pooh

Note 2: This isn't intended as a critizism but just additional comment. You guys have done a tremendous job making these planes playable in the Wings of Glory system.

Just a couple of points:
The Gunbus had a Max speed of 70 MPH not 60 & the British tests of the Fok E.III showed a max of 83 MPH.

I dont have stats handy for the FE 2b but thought from memory it maxed out around
90+ MPH.

[Zoe Brain]

It would really help if you gave us your sources. All of our data (apart from the Pfalz experimental aircraft) has backup from various documents. It's easy when they all agree, not so easy when they conflict. But at least we can "show our working" to those who doubt our figures. Hopefully the doubters have better data.

We also have to take into account that an aircraft might have one of several engines in, each one with a different power output at different heights, and different weights. So when we give stats for a particular aircraft, in fact we're only giving them for a "typical" aircraft of that type, and that others of that same type could differ significantly.

So when source A says "The Pfulgestadt D.III had a maximum speed on 172 kp/h", source B says "189 kp/h", it could be that source A is referring to speed at 3000m, source B at sea level, or that source A assumes a 160hp Grommestand motor, source B the more powerful 200hp Leibowitz fitted on the last batches. They could both be right!

Even when it comes to service dates, we have similar issues. The Pomilio PE for example:

According to Alberto Casirati's article in Windsock, Italian Pomilio PE two-seaters were: " . . certainly the best of the series, began equipping front line units in summer 1918.

Sounds like 18 Q2. But, also from Windsock...

In December 1917, the Pomilios began to re-equip the 112a Squadriglia, an experienced SAML unit...

Aha! 17 Q4. Except...

... but its dozen PEs were destroyed in an air-raid on Padova. Type conversion dragged on until March...

They only had a dozen in January (the date of the air raid), and were still training with them rather than using them operationally... until they lost the lot before their first mission. Blandford gives first operational use in February 1918. So we've made it 18 Q1.

That's an easy one.

If you give us your sources, we can look for such gotchas as speed-at-height, engine-type, whether rigged by captors who didn't know what they were doing (or alternatively, had access to good lubricants and fuel not available to the original users), etc. Even quoting figures for the Friedrichshafen 33L as opposed to the 33E.

If we're lucky, your sources will be better than ours, and we can improve our stats accordingly. Even if not, we have another piece of evidence to use.

Oh yes... found a few format errors on the spreadsheet, so we need a bugfix update. We'll also add the Pomilio PE, and the Salmson-Moineau S.1 - a new Small Giant (it had 3 crew) only a hair larger than a Farman F.40, and an absolute dog of a plane. Finally, Blue Rider makes a 1/144 SSW R.I in Vacform, so there's a new column for manufacturers.

[Zoe Brain]

This will be PDF's as the definitive version 3.1 after checking. It contains all operational combat aircraft ever made by commercial firms in 1/144 that we know of, in Vacform, 3D Printing, Resin, or Metal.

We may add the JN4 later, with the next Shapeways release.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Once again thanks to Zoe and the team for their sterling work on this mammoth project.
Rob.

[gully_raker]

Yes! Many votes of thanks to the Stats team for their dedication & time.

[Guntruck]

Once again thanks to Zoe and the team for their sterling work on this mammoth project.
Rob.

Damn! We forgot the Martinsyde Mammoth!

[Pooh]

Sorry about the delay in getting back, I've been away from my computer for awhile.

My sources are limited for early war planes, even more limited as I seem to misplaced a couple of books.
My Main source is:
The Essential Aircraft Identification Guide
Aircraft of World War I 1914-1918
by Jack Herris & Bob Pearson.

Here are their listings for the Aircraft I used
Central Powers
Fokker EIII = 140 Km/Hr (87 mph)
Halberstadt DII = 150 km/hr (93 mph)

Allies
Caudron G4 = 130 km/hr (80 mph)
Vickers FB5 = 113 km/hr (70 mph)
Moraine Saulnier Type N = 144 km/hr (89 mph)
FE2b = 129 km/hr (80 mph)

They also list an FE2d which had a 250 hp engine instead of the 160 hp engine of the FE2b though they don't give the stats for it.

Pooh

[Guntruck]

Alrighty, I've just put up 2 PDFs of this version - aircraft availability and unofficial stats. I've also added a tarted up version of the Excel file.

This now leaves us with only 5 aircraft from Fiddler's Green to look at - Bleriot XI, Rumpler Taube, Sopwith Tabloid, Curtis Jenny and Thomas-Morse S-4

[Watchdog]

Good job!

I must have missed something but what does "(S)" firing arc mean, for instance for AEG G.IV?

Does it mean it has a standard two-seater firing arc B/B, like that of, for instance, UFAG C.I? Or is it supposed to have the same firing arcs as Gotha G.V or some other bomber?

[Zoe Brain]

(S) means special - you have to look at the card, it's a bomber with unconventional firing arcs.

[Watchdog]

Thanks, Zoe. Should I use the Gotha G.V card for firing arcs then? Or Caproni Ca.3?

[Zoe Brain]

Thanks, Zoe. Should I use the Gotha G.V card for firing arcs then? Or Caproni Ca.3?

Gotha's closer. We'll try to get cards out soon.

[Watchdog]

Thanks, Zoe.

I plan to incorporate bombers into my Italian Front Campaign and the AEG G.IV's of Kampfgeschwader IV would be a nice addition to the Central Powers side.

[gully_raker]

G'day All!

Just some more Stats & Sources:

DH-2 (monosoupe engine which gave only marginal improvement over Le Rhone)
Ground Level--93 MPH
5000 ft---90 MPH
11,000 Ft 73 MPH Source Profile Publications DH-2 book J M Bruce.

BE 2c
Ground Level 70 MPH
6500 Ft 65 MPH Source Profile Publications BE 2 book

FB5 Gunbus
Max Speed 70 MPH
Max ceiling 9000 ft Source "the Aerodrome" Historical Site

Fokker E III
Speed @ 6500 ft = 83 MPH
at 10,000 ft = 79 MPH Source ProfilePublications E III Book results of Official British tests of captured Aircraft.

FE 2b
With 120 HP engine 80.5 MPH
With 160 HP engine 91.5 MPH Source The Great War in the Air Forum




Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter 2 seat Fighter
Speed at 6,500 ft = 100 MPH
at 10,000 ft = 96-97 MPH. Source Profile Publications Sopwith Strutter Book.

Hope this helps or is of interest.

[Zoe Brain]

Thanks, just the kind of info we're looking for.

Version 4.0 will be coming out as soon as we get confirmation that Andrea's changes to series 5 aircraft will definitely be made.

[Guntruck]

Gotha's closer. We'll try to get cards out soon.

"We"?

I'll schedule them after I have done some SPADs, Camels, Hanriots, Pfalz, Fokkers various, FE2s..........

[David Manley]

Version 4.0 will be coming out as soon as we get confirmation that Andrea's changes to series 5 aircraft will definitely be made.

Can I suggest you leave the originals in the file as well (perhaps as a separate page) for those who stick with the original versions?

[john snelling]

Thanks for all the hard work you have made my life alot easier!!!! I also want to thank you for considering our information we have or collect!! Soooo here is my input.
IAW Austro-Hungarian Army Aicraft of WW1 by Flying Press Books.
The dates of the Brandenburg D.I (KD) were ordered were:
QTY Manufacturer Series No. Engine Order date
24 Phonix 28.01 - 24 Dm 185hp 24 Jun 1916
20 Brandenburg 65.50 - 69 Dm 160hp 25 Aug 1916
30 Brandenburg 65.70 - 99 Dm 150hp 25 Aug 1916
24 Phonix 28.25 - 48 Dm 185hp 03 Dec 1916
24 Phonix 28.49 - 72 Dm 185hp 29 Jan 1917

One sereis 65.5 was accepted in Oct 1916. Series 65.7 acceptances began in Nov 1916 and the Phonix-built series 28 in Jan 1917.
LFT ordered all Brandenburg fighters to be removed from the front on 27 Jan 1918.
The dates for the should be 16Q4 to 17Q4 or 18Q1 vice 16Q1 to 17Q2.
I also recommend moving the country from Germany to A-H since the majority of the aircraft were made in the A-H and A-H was the only country to use them operationally.

[gully_raker]

Further to my previous post I am attaching a comparison of the "speeds" of the K, P,
XC & XD manouver decks.
I posted this up on Zoe's thread of her contact & exchange with Andrea & the planned (?) changes to the decks for Series 5. As I mentioned there, Andrea said that the XA, XB & XC deck speeds had been tweeked due to the size of the large Bomber Plane Cards so I do think the Gunbus & BE2c need to be upgraded to at least the XD Deck when you compair the % of their speed to the E III/DH-2 on the P/G decks & the K deck which represents the 100 MPH of the
1 1/2 Strutter.


WGF Early War Deck comparison.jpg Views: 101 Size: 112.1 KB" style="float: CONFIG" />

[gully_raker]

Any members of the Unofficial/Official Aircraft Committee any thought on my suggestion in view of Andreas statement that the XA, XB & XC decks should not be used for regular Aircraft as their speed/turns have been "skewed" due to the size of the Card & Base?

[Zoe Brain]

Any members of the Unofficial/Official Aircraft Committee any thought on my suggestion in view of Andreas statement that the XA, XB & XC decks should not be used for regular Aircraft as their speed/turns have been "skewed" due to the size of the Card & Base?

Some more, after I clarified that these were only for aircraft with speeds <140 km/h

I think that using the X... decks for earlier slow planes is a good
compromise. It's only a pity that there are not 60° curves for the
fighters.

I will write back after some study.

Thanks for everything again!

Deck XA (11) – Very very slow speed shortened (arrow is 40% of the card - 16 mm)
3 straight
3 left turns (30°)
3 right turns (30°)
2 stalls (just the arrow heads) - steep

Deck XB (11) – Very slow speed shortened (arrow is 50% of the card - 16 mm)
3 straight
3 left turns (30°)
3 right turns (30°)
2 stalls (just the arrow heads) - steep

Deck XC (11) – Very slow speed shortened (arrow is 50% of the card - 16 mm)
3 straight
3 left turns (45°)
3 right turns (45°)
2 stalls (just the arrow heads) - steep

Deck XD (11) – Very very slow speed (arrow is 40% of the card)
3 straight
3 left turns (45°)
3 right turns (45°)
2 stalls (normal stall lenght) - steep

[gully_raker]

Some more, after I clarified that these were only for aircraft with speeds <140 km/h



Deck XA (11) – Very very slow speed shortened (arrow is 40% of the card - 16 mm)
3 straight
3 left turns (30°)
3 right turns (30°)
2 stalls (just the arrow heads) - steep

Deck XB (11) – Very slow speed shortened (arrow is 50% of the card - 16 mm)
3 straight
3 left turns (30°)
3 right turns (30°)
2 stalls (just the arrow heads) - steep

Deck XC (11) – Very slow speed shortened (arrow is 50% of the card - 16 mm)
3 straight
3 left turns (45°)
3 right turns (45°)
2 stalls (just the arrow heads) - steep

Deck XD (11) – Very very slow speed (arrow is 40% of the card)
3 straight
3 left turns (45°)
3 right turns (45°)
2 stalls (normal stall lenght) - steep

Thanks Zoe! However if you check the "speed arrows" on XD & XC you will find the Committee has them reversed!
the XC Deck is the Slower of the two. Refer the scans of the Cards attached!

WGF Early War Deck comparison.jpg Views: 86 Size: 112.1 KB" style="float: CONFIG" />

[Doug]

I agree with you Barry the XD deck would be better for the Gunbus and BE2c as the XC deck is just to slow from my gaming experience.

[Zoe Brain]

Sounds like with the discrepancy between what Andrea wrote, what we wrote, and what you wrote, that we should take a long hard look and see what the cards actually have on them. No doubt the Gunbus should be different and superior to the Bleriots, Taubes etc. It was after all the first fighter designed as such.

Because it would involve a change in existing stats that appear on the aircraft, as opposed to service dates, climb etc that don't, it will need a new version release, version 4. We try to minimise those, so those making cards don't lynch us. With Andrea's data, we'd need a new version release anyway, so any change will be in 4.0

[gully_raker]

Thanks Zoe!
No sign of any Lynching Party down here!
You folk on the Committee did an absolute AWESOME Job on the stats & were of course not aware that Andrea & Co has "skewed" the speed on the XA, XB & XC decks due to the size of the Giants Cards & Bases.
I think the XD is fine for the slower early war Aircraft.

[JBParkland]

The Commitee has done a fantastic job, and thank you all for your hard work - I no longer have to ponder about what the stats of a Sopwith Pup or Albatros DII would be!

I have a couple of questions about the FE2b, though, as I was surprised to see it with a J* deck (like J less a sideslip), and am wondering wheteher this a typo and it should actually be a G* (like G less immelmann). At J* it's really powerful in game terms - it's as fast and almost as manoeuvrable as an Albatros DIII and would sweep the skies for the whole of 1916.

On speed, FE2b speed is 91mph (147km/h) according to Jane's Encylopedia of Aviation 1993 (matches gully-raker's stats for the 160 HP engine above). This puts it in the lower end of the Commitee's Slow (141-161 km/h) speed band - that's why I'm wondering whether the J* is a typo for G*.

On immelmann - I don't know whether it's nippy enough to warrant being able to immelmann, and I have seen a comment about it being able to do stall turns. But there seems to be a basic principle that 2-seaters can't immelmann in game terms unless they're unusually manoueverable late-war models like Brisfits or Halberstadt CLIIs, so I'd question whether the FE2B was as manoeuvrable as a DH2 or an Albatros.

On gun arc, a very wide (170o) front gun arc seems right, but on the rear arc I'd suggest it's the reverse Roland rule so it can only fire outside the rear arc at higher altitudes (not same or higher). Also, as using the rear gun is so precarious for the observer (who is in the front seat, and has to stand up and turn around to fire the rear gun over the top wing), maybe a movement restriction would be needed - definately no immelmann-firing like the Bristol, but maybe no steep maneouvres or even can only fire outside the front arc after a straight.

This isn't meant to be a criticism at all - the Commitee's done a superb job - so please take this as builds on a Beta version as requested.