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Thread: "Series 5" Update!

  1. #551

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    There may well be; as I said, John deals with Alliance exclusively for games. Since his business is rather more weighted towards comics, and he does carry a decent selection of gaming materials, I don't think he loses much, business with this decision.
    Karl

  2. #552

    Kharas1
    Guest


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    I've been to Spirit Games in Burton on Trent today, had series 5 in stock and a healthy looking supply at £11.99 each, so similar prices to elsewhere. Didn't purchase any myself as couldn't wait so already had a full set from CoolStuff but for those wanting to buy individually in the UK this would be an option. Last time I checked Stafford Games also had stock but can't remeber the price there.

  3. #553

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    That is a useful bit of information, thanks Craig.
    It seems as if stocks are now getting through to several suppliers at last.
    Rob.
    Last edited by Flying Officer Kyte; 09-30-2012 at 11:24.

  4. #554

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    Thanks for that Craig, I might nip down after work one day this week and pick up one or two or, since it is Derby Wargames show this weekend, I shall go and see what is on offer there.
    It is nice to know they are available locally at last

    Richard

  5. #555

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Thanks for that Craig, I might nip down after work one day this week and pick up one or two or, since it is Derby Wargames show this weekend, I shall go and see what is on offer there.
    It is nice to know they are available locally at last

    Richard
    If you are at Derby Richard, maybe we can meet up. Christophe, Bony and I will be there on Saturday.
    See the post on the U.K. sub forum for further info.
    Rob.

  6. #556

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    If you are at Derby Richard, maybe we can meet up. Christophe, Bony and I will be there on Saturday.
    See the post on the U.K. sub forum for further info.
    Rob.
    I shall try to make the Saturday unless SWMBO changes her mind

    Rich

  7. #557

    Kharas1
    Guest


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    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I shall try to make the Saturday unless SWMBO changes her mind

    Rich
    I hope to be at the Derby show on Saturday although given it's new venue referring to it as Derby is stretching it a bit!

  8. #558

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharas1 View Post
    I hope to be at the Derby show on Saturday although given it's new venue referring to it as Derby is stretching it a bit!
    Well it is the Derby show -it's just moved a bit.
    Nothing major, just a different county

    See you there

    Rich

  9. #559

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Well it is the Derby show -it's just moved a bit.
    Nothing major, just a different county

    See you there

    Rich
    Yes Rich, although it has moved, all the Flyers still call it the Derby Worlds.
    Rob.

  10. #560

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    If the link works then read my, and other's, view of the event here;

    http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=282909

  11. #561

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    As Ares announced to plan the release in 2021 of the Dual Packs with Fokker E.III, Morane-Saulnier, Airco DH.2 and Halberstatdt D.III (FB WOG Fan Groupplan to issue 1915 Duel Packs with the reprint of the E3, DH2...”), I have sent to Ares some personal research and studies I made about the MORANE-SAULNIER type N on various historical sources (Osprey, Windsock Datafiles, websites).


    SUMMARY

    1 - ISSUES WITH WINGS OF GLORY MORANE-SAULNIER TYPE N
    NAVARRE
    CHAPUT

    2 - WHICH SCHEMES FOR MORANE-SAULNIER N ?
    English Morane-Saulnier N
    French Morane-Saulnier N
    Fights involving FOKKER E.III and English / French MORANE SAULNIER N
    Russian Morane-Saulnier type I

    3 - Examples of fights involving HALBERSTATDT D.III and AIRCO DH.2



    PRESENTATION

    1 - ISSUES WITH WINGS OF GLORY MORANE-SAULNIER TYPE N

    Two of the previous MS.N miniatures released by Ares in 2012 had wrong painting schemes (Navarre and Chaput) :



    * NAVARRE
    In WINDSOCK DATAFILES 58 - MORANE SAULNIER N, all pictures show that French MS N didn't have cockade on the fuselage.
    There is just a French flag (picture 9/36 of a MS N n°394 from Escadrille 12), and also on Chaput’s MS N.
    http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft25455.htm
    So, Navarre’s MS N shouldn’t have a cockade on the fuselage.




    Moreover, in the following article (from the Aerodrome), it appears that French Morane-Saulnier N never had red cowling and it only concerned English RFC Morane-Saulnier N from July 1916 until their withdrawal in October 1916.
    So, Navarre’s MS N shouldn’t have a red cowling but a black one.

    Did RFC Type Ns have a black or red cowl/hub ?
    
From the WW1 plane specialist Greg VanWyngarden.

    The Morane-Saulniers left the French factory with black cowlings and metal parts. I'm pretty sure that Moranes in French service generally continued to fly with black cowlings.
However, in the RFC they were eventually painted red.
    In his history of "Sixty Squadron RAF 1916-1919", A.J.L. Scott wrote:
"War flying was started a few days later, and it at once became apparent that our anti-aircraft batteries found difficulty in distinguishing our 'bullets' from the Fokkers. In consequence the black cowls of our machines were painted red to help the "archie" gunners, who had been assiduously firing at 60's machines."
    
J.M. Bruce wrote: "At the request of General Trenchard, Capt. A R Smith-Barry (of 60 Sqdn) conducted comparative experiments with all the metal areas painted white on one Morane, red on another; on a third aircraft the airscrew was painted white. The white airscrew proved...to be invisible; and red was considered to be better than white as a distinguishing colour."
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=38372

    WINDSOCK DATAFILES 58 - MORANE SAULNIER N

    page 20 : at the time (March 1916), the Morane would not have had the red paint applied. The RFC order to paint the front end of all Morane's red, came in July, during the battle of the Somme to avoid confusion with the Eindekker.

    It is also the opinion of David Mechin (french WW1 aviation specialist) that french MS.N had a black cowling, as there are no order or information to repaint them, while there are English documents ordering to repaint the cowling in red.
    David Mechin has sent me an autochrome of a MS type L with a black cowling and a February 1920 drawing (artist : Alfred Daguet) of a MS P (unfortunately, there are no coloured picture of MS type N).




    From his website WW1 French Aces, a personal drawing of a MS type N :



    In May 1916, Navarre now flew on a more powerful Nieuport 16 whose fuselage he had painted red and which the army painter Henri Farré, present at Verdun, immortalized with one of his paintings.”
    Translated from David Mechin’s website :
    http://www.as14-18.net/Navarre
    So we may suppose that the first Navarre’s plane to be painted red (partly or totally) is his Nieuport 16, and that was noticeable enough to be reproduced by a painter.


    * CHAPUT
    Chaput’ MS N miniature has 3 bands painted round the fuselage behind the cockpit, red/white/red.
    
It seems that the source used for this scheme comes from the magazine Windsock Datafile n°48 - Morane-Saulnier type N,I,V (author J.M.Bruce, edited in 1996).
    At page 34, a picture shows a Morane-Saulnier N with a pilot believed to be Sergent Jean Chaput of Escadrille 159 (actually, Jean Chaput was never member of this Escadrille 159 that was created in January 1918. At that time, he was in Escadrille SPA 57).

    The comment says that the monoplane has bands painted round the fuselage behind the cockpit, possibly red/white/red.

    But on the same higher definition picture (below), it can be seen that the two dark colours bands are different, one is darker than the other, that can lead to the conclusion that the darker band is red and the other is blue (like the french flag).
    
Source (Musée de l’Air, Paris Le Bourget) : 
http://3p1w.eu/15-11-1917/#more-3311



    It is the way David Mechin shows Chaput’s Morane :
http://www.as14-18.net/Chaput



    I have informed Windsock Datafiles edition (Ray Rimell) and Eduard Models editor (Richard Plos - Plastic model kits department) of this mistake and they have both acknowledged. They will update this model for a future edition.


    2 - WHICH SCHEMES FOR MORANE-SAULNIER N ?

    * English Morane-Saulnier N

    It would be mandatory in that serie, eventhough there are 3 RFC DH2.
    Just consider the English nickname of the Morane : Bullet. It is best known with its English name.

    This Morane-Saulnier painting thread on the WOG Aerodrome shows that gamers have repainted their French Morane to get English models (and also Russian Morane : messages #37 08-11-2016 and #68 01-02-2019).
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ainting-thread

    Historical arguments
    WINDSOCK DATAFILE 58 - MORANE SAULNIER N
    page 10 : the type saw little operational service with french units. No escadrille was never equipped exclusively with the type N, but a few were allocated to certain units. The type never achieved the popularity or success of the contemporary Nieuport.

    From the link : http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft25455.htm
    V.Kondratyev Aircraft of the First World War :
    49 examples were built for the French Air Force (of which about half got to the front, the rest were used in flight schools) and 24 for the British that were still in use for the Somme Battle in July 1916.


    Tone BAYETTO’s Morane-Saulnier N number A.186 is well known by multiple pictures of him and his MS N during July 1916. It could have a red cowling according to the July 1916 RFC order to paint cowling in red.

    There is also Eustace GRENFELL, a RFC Ace on a Morane Saulnier N (number 5068) with 4 victories the same day (facing Fokker E.III and two seater Albatros C), with black cowling as they took place in January 1916 (before July 1916 RFC order to paint in red) :
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/grenfell.php
    1st squadron - By January 1916, Grenfell had upgraded to a Morane "Bullet", which he used in a quadruple victory on the 17th. On that day, in a forty-minute dogfight over the Houthoulst Forest, he drove down a Fokker Eindekker, forced another to land, put another one out of control, and drove down an Albatros two-seater.
    Having scored five of his victories in the Morane-Saulnier N, he was the most successful pilot in the type.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustace_Grenfell

    Picture of MS.N number 5069 and A186 (pilot Bayetto) with light coloured elevator :




    Picture of MS.N number A173 with dark coloured elevator :




    Other examples of fights involving Fokker E.III and English Morane Saulnier N

    WINDSOCK DATAFILE 58 - MORANE SAULNIER N
    page 20 : on July 3 1916, major Waldron (60 sqd) flying A175 was killed as he led a formation of five Morane Bullets into an attack on an enemy formation of two seaters accompanied by three Fokkers. ../.. Several early but inconclusive combat claims were recorded in early July 1916 but the first positive destruction of a German two-seater came on July 27. Real successes were few and hard won for the Bullets. ../.. in summer 1916, Morane Saulnier type N (5180, 5195, A166, A178) and their pilots were detached from No 3 Squadron to supplement the DH.2s of No 24 Squadron at a critical time. But they recorded no claims to combat successes during their detachment.



    OSPREY AIRCRAFT OF THE ACES • 73 - Early German Aces of World War 1
    page 65 : Wintgens racked up a double on 21 July 1916, claiming a BE 2c from No 12 Sqn in the morning and a Morane N from No 60 Sqn in the afternoon. ../.. In spite of these victories, 21 July was a black day for the Fliegertruppe, especially the Fokker pilots of AKN (renamed Kampfeinsitzerstaffel B -for Bertincourt - and some sources even revert to using KEK B for the unit).



    * French Morane-Saulnier N

    A fight involving a Fokker E.III and a French Morane-Saulnier N is likely to have occurred in late 1915 / early 1916.
    With the new correct painting (french flag bands around the fuselage), the Chaput’s model would be the best choice for the french MS N, from the historical timing point of view facing Fokker E.III.
    And it would be more attractive than a black nosed Navarre’s model with no other decorations).

    Historical arguments
    There are just a few historical combats involving French Morane-Saulnier and the victories are against two-seaters :

    ESCADRILLE 49 : Morane-Saulnier type N n° 388 "Le Vengeur" by Sgt Eugčne Gilbert, pilot of the MS 49 squadron. It was at the controls of this aircraft that he won his homologated victory against an Aviatik C of FlAbt 48, on June 17, 1915 north of Thann (68 Haut-Rhin).
    http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...adrille049.htm

    ESCADRILLE 12 : Sgt Jean Navarre at the controls of the Morane Saulnier N n° 398 on which he won a homologated victory against an LVG C II (from FA 33 - LVG C II n°523/15) on October 26th 1915 at Jaulgonne (Aisne).
    http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...adrille012.htm

    From the link Flying Machines :
    Сайт Pilots-and-planes : After June 1915, the first ten production Type Ns had arrived at the front. These aircraft were usually assigned to MS units to provide escort for the more vulnerable Type L/LAs. MS 12, 23, and 49 are all known to have been equipped with Type Ns; reports suggest that MS 3, 37, and 48 also utilized them. French reports for 1915 rarely mention the Type N specifically, but it is likely that from July through August 1915 most of the bomber escort missions and barrage flights flown by units included Type Ns.
    There were numerous encounters with enemy aircraft during the summer months but most were inconclusive; the German aircraft were usually described as having been forced to withdraw and few victories were achieved. ../..
    The Type Ns continued to see very limited service in the fall of 1915 ; Jean Navarre destroyed a German aircraft while flying a Type N on 25 October. However, by the end of 1915 the Type N had been completely withdrawn from front-line units.
    While the Type N saw only limited service with the Aviation Militaire, it would see more widespread use with the RNAS and RFC
    .


    Fights involving FOKKER E.III and french MORANE SAULNIER N

    OSPREY Aircraft of the Aces - 073 - Early German Aces of WW1
    Personal remark : the Morane Saunier planes mentioned in this Osprey concern Parasol types and biplanes (french in 1915 and English in 1916) and also type N but they are English model in 1916.
    page 11 : Kurt Wintgens had successfully blooded his Fokker E I 5/15, but the combat took place so far over the lines that he failed to receive official confirmation for this historic victory. The French crew of Capitaine Paul du Peuty and Sous-Lt de Boutiny of MS48, however, were both wounded and forced down in their Morane L on 1 July 1915.
    page 25 : By the end of October 1915, approximately 75 Fokker Eindeckers were reported in the frontline inventory. Of these, 23 were of the new Fokker E III model- this type would soon be the most numerous of all the Eindecker types.

    So, the French Morane-Saulnier should be Chaput’s model :
    The Fokker E.III arrived at the front in late 1915.
    Chaput used a Morane-Saulnier in March/April 1916, waiting for his replacement Nieuport. While it appears he had none victory with this plane, a fight is mentioned on the April 25th in the Verdun area against a two seater, but at a time when the Fokker E.III was widely spread. And on April 30th, Chaput claimed a victory against a Fokker E piloting his new Nieuport 11.
    http://www.as14-18.net/Chaput


    * A Russian Morane Saulnier type I

    Even if the east front is not very iconic, the model with skull painted on the vertical stabilizer would be attractive.
    In WINDSOCK DATAFILE 58 - MORANE SAULNIER N - page 27, it is described as a type I, piloted by Ivan SMIRNOFF (see picture below).
    The Type I single-seat fighter was fundamentally a Type N re-engined with a 110 hp engine, and a slightly bigger wingspan (10 cm, that would be half a millimetre on a 1/144 model, not noticeable, so the same miniature could be used).
    But its higher maximum speed would require a V maneuver deck instead of T deck.

    N : Max speed, 89 mph (144 km/h) at sea level.
    Time to 3,280 ft (1000 m), 4.0 min.
    Span, 26 ft. 8 5/8 in (8,15 m).
    Length, 19 ft 1 1/2 in (5,83 m).
    Height, 7 ft 4 1/2 in (2,25 m).
    Wing area, 118.4 sqft (11,00 m2).

    I : Max speed, 104 mph (168 km/h) at sea level.
    Time to 6,560 ft (2 000 m), 6.75 min.
    Span, 27 ft 0 1/2 in (8,24 m).
    Length, 19 ft 1 in (5,81m).
    Height, 8 ft 2 1/2 in (2,50 m).
    Wing area, 118.4 sqft (11,00 m2).


    OSPREY AIRCRAFT OF THE ACES - 111 - Russian Aces of World War 1
    (15) Morane-Saulnier Type I MS740 of Praporshchik Ivan Smirnov, 19th KAO of the 1st BAG, Monastyrzhisko airfield, Galicia, Southwest Front, spring 1917
    The 19th KAO took delivery of this aircraft on 29 November 1916 and applied the 1st BAG emblem on the fighter’s rudder shortly thereafter. Smirnov claimed an Albatros C-type with MS740 for his second victory on 19 April 1917, having made four attacking passes at an enemy aircraft in this machine exactly two weeks earlier – the Morane was holed by return fire during the latter engagement. Eyewitnesses of this combat and the landing of the German aeroplane were pilot Praporshchik Krisanov and his gunner, soldier Yakutin, who were flying a Nieuport 10 near Zavaluv. The other participant in the engagement was 4th KAO pilot Praporshchik Mikhail Malyshev, who also flew a Monocoque. MS740 was written off in June 1917.





    (24) Morane-Saulnier Type I MS742 of Praporshchik Grigory Suk, 9th AOI, Sa ̆uces ̧ti airfield, Kézdi-Vąsįrhely-Ocna- Baca ̆u, Rumanian Front, March 1917
    Suk’s aeroplane was delivered to the 9th AOI on 6 February 1917, where it was armed with a synchronised Vickers machine gun. On 13 March he forced down a Hansa-Brandenburg C I while at the controls of MS742. Deemed to be worn out by May, the monoplane fighter was placed in storage in the 6th Aviation Park.






    3 - Examples of fights involving HALBERSTATDT D.III and AIRCO DH.2

    OSPREY AIRCRAFT OF THE ACES • 73 - Early German Aces of World War 1
    German Pilots
    page 66 : On 21 July 1916, Otto Parschau, ran into trouble over Grevillers. He received a glancing shot to his head and a mortal bullet wound in his chest. Incredibly, he managed to bring his aircraft (possibly a new Halberstadt D II) down safely behind German lines. ../.. Both the DH 2 ace Capt J 0 Andrews of No 24 Sqn (who claimed a Fokker over Allaines in the morning) and the French star Lt Charles Nungesser have been put forth as the possible victor over Parschau. Nungesser's tenth claim was for an 'Aviatik', a term often used by the French for any generic German aircraft (as mentioned, Parschau may have been flying a new Halberstadt fighter, which would have been an unfamiliar type.

    page 71 : Jasta 1
    Records of the aircraft in use by the Staffel at this time are fragmentary and confusing, and it is generally thought that the unit's first aircraft were Fokker D I biplanes. There are also certainly photographs of pilots with Halberstadt machines, and there is considerable evidence that Kurt Wintgens flew a Fokker E IV at times. When Leopold Rudolf Reimann transferred to Jasta 2 from Jasta 1 on 1 September, he reportedly brought his unit's solitary Albatros D I along with him.

    Hans von Keudell
    5 09 Nov 1916 1030 Jasta 1 D.H.2 (A2543) Grevillers-Bapaume
    6 09 Nov 1916 1400 Jasta 1 D.H.2 (7925) Wancourt-Tillo
    10 22 Nov 1916 1415 Jasta 1 D.H.2 (A2607) Biefviller
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/keudell.php

    page 77 : Jasta 4
    Berthold's determination to come to grips with the enemy remained firm, and he scored his sixth victory on 24 August while flying a Halberstadt fighter.

    page 81 : Jasta 4
    ltn Otto Bernert poses with a unique Halberstadt D III most likely when he flew with Jasta 4.
    Jasta 4 posted only three victories in November, but they all came on one day - and were claimed by one pilot! On the 9th, a formation of BE 2c bombers from Nos 12 and 13 Sqns, escorted by DH 2s from No 29 Sqn and other fighters from Nos 11 and 60 Sqns, made a large raid on Vraucourt. They were effectively attacked by fighters from Jagdstaffeln 1, 2 and 4, the Germans splitting up the bombing formation into more vulnerable groups - carnage ensued. Otto Bernert started out an incredible day by subtracting a DH 2 from the strength of No 29 Sqn at 1030 hrs at Le Sars. ../..
    When, exactly, Jasta 4 replaced its Halberstadt fighters with Albatros D-types is uncertain, but this probably started before the end of 1916. No more victories were claimed before January (two unconfirmed on the 23rd), by which time Albatros fighters were likely on hand.


    page 81 : Jasta 5
    It would appear that Jasta 5 had been primarily re-equipped with Halberstadt fighters by early October. Indeed, Berr was probably flying one when he initiated a scoring spree with a double (a Caudron and a BE 12) on 7 October, followed by four more before the end of the month - including another double on the 26th. Hans Muller apparently reached 'acedom' shortly before his Staffilfuhrer by downing a British FE 2b on the 16th.

    Hans Karl MÜLLER :
    7 22 Oct 1916 1200 Jasta 5 D.H.2 Bapaume
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/muller2.php


    OSPREY AIRCRAFT OF THE ACES 88 - Pusher Aces of World War 1
    English pilots
    page 34 : BATTLE OF THE SOMME
    Among the units seeking to counter the enemy scouts were the DH 2s of Nos 24 and 32 Sqns, joined by No 60 Sqn and its Morane-Saulnier N tractor monoplanes that employed the same bullet deflectors used by Roland Garros back in April 1915.

    page 34 : Transferring to command ' C Flight of No 29 Sqn, Capt Cowan downed a Halberstadt D II on 17 November, but as he went after another German aircraft his DH 2 (A2555) collided with 2Lt W S F Saundby's A2565 and both men were killed.

    Eric Clowes PASHLEY
    03 Nov 1916 D.H.2 (5925) Halberstadt D.II Bapaume
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/pashley.php

    John Oliver ANDREWS
    02 Nov 1916 D.H.2 (5998) Halberstadt D.II NW of Bapaum
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/andrews.php

    Sidney Edward COWAN
    17 Nov 1916 D.H.2 (A2555) Halberstadt D.II
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/ireland/cowan.php
    Last edited by monse; 11-14-2023 at 15:05.

  12. #562

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    Fascinating info Simon - wonder if Ares will take a blind bit of notice?!

    "He is wise who watches"

  13. #563

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    Simon - great article on these early plane types. I hope they do get re-issued with your recommendations

  14. #564

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    Thank you for your comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    wonder if Ares will take a blind bit of notice?!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrashCraig View Post
    I hope they do get re-issued with your recommendations
    Ares had answered me that it is “a lot of very interesting information”.
    They “will make sure to take it into account before we move forward with this reprint.”

  15. #565

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    Amazing. Lots of very good research. Hope to actually see the dual pack reprints.

  16. #566

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    I like this kind of research that corrects mistakes

  17. #567

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    Amazing post Simon, lots to think about

  18. #568

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    Excellent information, Simon.
    Hopefully Ares will take your observations and recommendations into account.


    Unfortunately I am unable to give you well-deserved REP at this time.

  19. #569

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    Wonderful post Simon. Hopefully ARES will adopt some of the schemes you showed them.

  20. #570

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    I like this kind of research that corrects mistakes
    It's great but we're yet to see anything corrected by Ares yet - though there might be a chance with a paintjob rather than something physical on a model or manoeuvre deck.

    "He is wise who watches"

  21. #571

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    Excellent research, Simon!

    Rep guns jammed!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  22. #572

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    Wow, Simon! What an excellent post and bit of information!

  23. #573

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    We didn't play 1915/16 mission for a very long time. We should put these fragile minis on the table again

  24. #574

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    We didn't play 1915/16 mission for a very long time. We should put these fragile minis on the table again
    We just did - again !
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...l=1#post576885

    "He is wise who watches"

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