the two typs of crosses
Hi- I have a very nooby question. What is the difference between the two types crosses on the German plains (if any)? I know one is the Iron Cross, and the other one is plane.
Sorry for such a noob question, I've been looking and can't find an answer.
The straight cross is for Germany. The maltese cross ie for theAstr-Hungarians. Ithought O read that somewhere. sorry i asked the same question a long time ago
Actually, no: the 'Iron Cross' as you refer to it is the early style, used by both Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary until early 1918 when they changed to the straight-armed Balkenkreuz of varying widths.Originally Posted by flyingryno
An interesting piece i found on the Aerodrome about the German uses of crosses:
This is the origin of the German insignia.
The name "Eisernes Kreuz" (Iron Cross) stirs from the use of this cross form as a bravery award manufactured of cast iron here. Original became this award of King Friedrich Wilhelm III. caused after an outline of Karl Friedrich Schinkel during the wars of liberation (1813-1815) against Napoleonic France. At that time an all-German national feeling developed for the first time and the Eisernes Kreuz. developed it to a general state symbol.
The reason for the choice of a black cross on a white underground is further behind in the history. The colours of the habit were the black cross on a white reason as of the foundation of the Deutschen (Ritter)Ordens in 1191. The Deutsche Orden stood its ground over several centuries. Another advance of German power into the east sea space was reached by the appointment of the Deutsch-Ritter-Ordens by the Polish duke Konrad of Masowien to the Kulmerland 1226. The master of the Deutscherorden Herman von Salza was awarded this area as an empire fief by Friedrich II. *The German order state came into being through this and with conquest of Livonia by the sword knights. It experienced its highlight under Winrich of Knoprode (1351-82) and extended over Pommerellen and Prussia of the new mark at times to Estonia. It is the German settlement of these areas that layd basement for the foundation of towns like Danzig, Königsberg, Kulm and others primarily. Christianisation, economic opening up and foundation of a state organized tightly were the work of the Deutsch-Ritter-Ordens in these areas. When he had lost the diocese Ermland, west Prussians and Danzig in the peace of Torun (2nd defeat in pine mountain in 1466), he kept merely east Prussians of the old Order area, that one of the high masters of the Order after the secularisation of the Order state (1525) under a Polish sovereignty changed Albrecht of Hohenzollern into a dukedom. 1618 fell this dukedom Prussia through contracts of inheritance to the Brandenburg line of the house Hohenzollern. This Prussian dukedom orientated itself at the Deutsch-Ritter-Orden and took on the colours black and white as of 1819 as a reference to the 1809 Deutsch-Ritter-Orden dissolved of Napoleon and the iron cross as a reference which for its part resulted from the combine to the Deutsch-Orden as service and naval ensign to the bravery award of the wars of liberation against Napoleon.
In the German French war of 1870/71 the iron cross got the character of a symbol connecting the federal states in the military and political area. It was both into the emperor standard as taken also in the standards of many federal princes which wanted to remind with that of the victorious course of the German French war which could be obtained by the cohesion of the federation merely. The present imperial navy also kept the iron cross in the command signs and in the "Gösch", the upper corner of the naval ensign.
Therefore the German insignia of the cross can be considered one of the few insignias in the history of modern warfare that was a "naturally grown" symbol with a true history. So it makes me kind of proud that Germany still uses this symbol for use with identification of its weapons *;D
Not exactly. German crosses evolved from a maltese on white background thru a maltese with white outline to a slim balkenkreuze. AH forces used only maltese. It is sort of complicated.
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
Late war A-H aircraft are also marked with the straight-armed Balkenkreuz, as both the major Central Powers changed from the Eisernekreuz. Turkey retained the black square (which his a blocked out cross), but I'm not sure what the Bulgarians did; I'd assume as their aircraft also came from German factories that they also went 'straight-armed'.
Not exactly. German crosses evolved from a maltese on white background thru a maltese with white outline to a slim balkenkreuze. AH forces used only maltese. It is sort of complicated.
Last edited by Baldrick62; 12-22-2011 at 14:23.
YK-18.1 Broad-foot isernes kreuz (iron cross) , plain black & black on white field - Sept 1914 to July 1916. There was no official formula for cross sizes or designs during this period. Initially, crosses were only applied to wings and rudder. Fusleage crosses were specified at an unknown date. Plain black iron crosses without white fields were not uncommon. During the early war period, crosses were often applied to both upper and lower wing surfaces!
YK-18.4 Iron cross , black on white field - July 1916 to Oct 1916. The German Inspektion der Fliegertruppen (Idflieg) specified that crosses had to be applied on a white field and were to be 500, 600, 700, 1000, 1200 and 1400mm square. Idflieg also standardised the iron cross design: height = H, width of foot = 0.4H, and radius of arm = 1.3H. (Note: Fokker disregarded the July 1916 directive to apply a thin white surround and continued with the full white field until the beam cross was specified in 1918.)
YK-18.2 Iron cross, black - Sept 1914 to March 1918. These plain black decals comply with the sizes specified in 1916 but have no white field.
YK-18.3 Iron cross, black with white line - October 1916 to March 1918. The white field was illiminated, and replaced with a 50mm white outline. The 50mm was not rigidly adhered to by all manufacturers.
YK-18.5 Broad balkan kreuz (beam cross) , black with white outline - March to April 1918. To avoid any confusion with Allied aircraft cockade markings, Idflieg directed that the iron cross was to be replaced with a beam cross. In the field, the existing iron crosse markings were simply overpainted by ground crews, hence the broad cross width which, of necessity, matched the broad foot of the overpainted iron cross.
YK-18.6 Beam cross, black with white outline - March to April 1918. Where aircraft were painted in the factory during this transitional period, a simple more balanced looking beam cross with thin white surround was not uncommon.
YK-18.7 Standard beam cross, black with broad white surround - April to May 1918. Idflieg finally issued specifications that beam crosses had to be 400, 600, and 1000mm square, with arms having a width-to-length ratio of 1:4. Wing and fuselage crosses were to have a 150mm white surround. The tail cross surround was often thinner and not applicable where the entire tail was painted white.
YK-18.8 Thin beam cross, black with white outline - May 1918 to Nov 1918. Idflieg issued specifications that the arms of the beam cross were to have a slimmer width to length ratio of 1:8, with a white border 1/4 width of the arm. The arms on fusleage and wings were to be full cord size with no white outline on cross ends. Note, from May to June 1918, Idflieg initially directed that the horizontal arm was to be shorter with a ratio of 4:5 of the vertical arm. In June 1918, Idflieg directed that both arms were to be the same length, as represented by the YK-18.8 decals, this specification remaining in force until the war's end.
Ah, OK. So the crosses changed over time during the war.
One more nooby question for the sake of confirmation. The plains were built in Germany, and other countries for the Central Powers flew them (as well as Germany of course)? I ask because someone told me that Germany didn't share their plains with the others Central Powers and I figured he must be wrong.
Thanks for all of the info. It really came in handy.
Basically the Iron Cross on a white (square) field until September 1916, Iron Cross outlined in white from September 1916 to March 1918. Short, straight armed cross (WW2 style) March to April 1918 and "thin" large, straight armed cross May 1018 to end of war. Fokker Dr1's retained the early white field to the Iron cross until March 1918 when the standard straight armed crosses were adopted
Correct.
Fokker E-III in Ottoman Turkish serviceThe planes were built in Germany, and other countries for the Central Powers flew them (as well as Germany of course)? I ask because someone told me that Germany didn't share their plains with the others Central Powers and I figured he must be wrong.
From Wiki:
Albatros, Rumpler, Friedrichshafen, Roland, Otto and LVG are all German manufacturers.The First Aeroplane Section (the country's only aircraft unit) was attached to the Second Bulgarian Army. It flew 255 sorties, compared with 397, flown by the four squadrons of the Entente it opposed. The Section operated the following types:
12 LVG B.II - recon planes, the first group of six arriving in November 1915. Those venerable two seaters were also used as fighters by the Bulgarians, since no dedicated "scouts" were available.
13 Otto C.I - an exotic twin-tailed bombers. The type received its first Otto in May 1916.
18 Albatros C.III - recon planes, also used as trainers. First delivery in August 1916.
12 DFW C.V recon planes, first arriving in August 1917.
6 Roland D.II fighters. During July 1917 the first of these arrived with the Section.
6 Roland D.III fighters planes, the first arriving at the end of 1917.
3 Fokker E.III fighters planes, first of these delivered in the spring of 1916.
8 Fokker D.VII Bulgaria's finest fighter of WW1. Delivery took place in September 1918. The D.VIIs weren't pressed into action, 7 them were scrapped in accordance with the peace treaty. The 8th would fly as a pseudo two-seater after the war.
2 Albatros C.I. These were ordered by the Ottoman Empire before Bulgaria entered the war. During early 1915 the couple landed on Bulgarian territory by a navigational mistake, and the then-neutral country requisitioned them.
In addition, the Bulgarian Navy used the following airplanes:
8 Friedrichshafen FF-33 floatplane bombers for the Navy, first in 1916
2 Rumpler 6B1 floatplane fighters for the Navy, first in 1916
Turkish Albatros C.III
Turkish Albatros D.III
Austria-Hungary Albatros J1Albatros D.III's starting being deployed at the Turkish Armed Forces starting on March 1918. Up to October 1918 a total of 29 D.III's were supplied by the Germans 10 of which were without engines. They remained in service until 1922 and they participated the The Turkish War of Independence.
Bulgarian Otto C.I
So in summary... the Germans sold number of aircraft to other central powers. Only Austria-Hungary built its own, and even they had a number of German-built ones.
Excellent! Thank you.
These are the primary builders of the aircraft used by the Central Powers (Austro-Hungarian Empire, German Empire, Ottoman Empire and Kingdom of Bulgaria):
A.E.G. model aircraft where built in Germany.
Albatros Flugseuqwerke was a German Manufacturer that built the Albatros model aircraft.
Aviatik model aircraft where built in Germany, and by a subsidiary in Astro-Hungary.
Fokker was originally a Dutch company who had sold planes to Germany, and at the start of the war he established a factory in Germany. After the war, he returned his production back to the Netherlands.
Gothaer Waggonfabrik (builder of Gotha Bombers) was a German builder.
Siemens-Schuckert was a manufacturer in Germany.
Hansa-Brandenburg built by Österreichische-Ungarische Flugzeugfabrik which was in Austria-Hungary
There where other models, such as the Halberstadt, Hannover, Pfalz, the Roland, etc. which where built in Germany, as well as some of these models being built under liscense by the big names listed above. There are a few references of some manufactures in Austria-HUngary building limited amounts of planes 'under license'.
I have found no reference to any aircraft being built in the Ottoman Empire, or in Bulgaria.
There were quite a few DFW 2 seaters as well particularly in the early war period.
From memory Ernst Udet flew in one in his very early service days.
Here is a great visual reference for just about every national marking used on WWI aircraft... with brief descriptions that are concise and to the point.
The link Herr Oberst was very useful, its a pity we cant get a copy in our own files section, it would be of immense interest I think
Enzo Angelucci's _Illustrated Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft_ also includes graphics of every nations' markings from the various periods of aviation history.
Thats a wonderful link, Keirh for the many WoG members who dont visit the Historical Aerodrome site.
Yes, that's a great link Herr Oberst. Thanks!
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