Eindekker vs DH2

[Pooh]

Hi guys,

I hadn't really paid any attention to the G & P decks as I didn't have any aircraft that used them. Now I have Fokker EIIIs, DH 2s and Halberstadt DIIs on order from Shapeways, I took a closer look.
The EIII is described by most authors as having indifferent performance but was deadly because of its syncronised machine gun. The DH 2 is described as being wonderfully manouverable.
This isn't reflected in the decks. The P deck is the more manouverable with a wide sideslip each way. Since the DH 2 is one of the planes that ended the Fokker scourge, why doesn't it have the better manouver deck?


Pooh

[Wombat]

I kind of wondered the same thing, but decided to just go with it.

/Jörgen

[gully_raker]

Definately agree!
The DH-2 could outmanouver the Eindekker anyday.
Perhaps we should review this & revise the Deck letter!

[Flying Officer Kyte]

The problem with upgrading the DH2 is the knock on eff ect that this will have on the aircraft above it. If they are seen to suddenly under achieving when comparisons are made.
it may be better to demote the Eindekker, as there are fewer official aircraft below it that would need to be adjusted.
Rob.

[Mike W]

There was quite a mismatch in historical capability between the Fokker E.III and DH2s/Nieuport 11s, which is why the DH2s and Nieuport 11s ended the Fokker Scourge. Of the Shapeway fighter aircraft now available, I think the best matchups in historical capabilities for gaming purposes are Fokker E.IIIs vs FE2bs, Morane Saulnier Ls (single-seater scout version), and Ns in late 1915/early 1916 and Fokker E.IVs, Halberstadt D.II and Fokker D.II vs DH2s and Nieuport 11s in late 1916.

[Pooh]

I was thinking that the best thing might be to reverse the decks. have the DH2 & the Halberstadt use the P deck and have the Eindekker & the MS type N use the H deck. That way there is minimal impact on the other aircraft.

Pooh

[Mike W]

The problem with the decks provided for the early aircraft is that the manueverable aircraft decks don't have a card for a sharp turn. So long as you don't change the relative speeds of the aircraft compared to each other, you could jump all of the aircraft to the next level of higher speed decks so that manueverable aircraft now have decks with a card for a sharp turn.

[john snelling]

I was thinking that the best thing might be to reverse the decks. have the DH2 & the Halberstadt use the P deck and have the Eindekker & the MS type N use the H deck. That way there is minimal impact on the other aircraft.

Pooh

I think this is the way to go. It never bothered me to make changes that make the game feel more pratical/historical. Try making your own deck for the planes. I make slight changes for gunnery all the time it adds to the game. I use limited ammo for lewis guns but you can reloading and the lewis gun was less likely to jam. That is just one example.

[Naharaht]

The DH2 still has the advantages of a better rate of climb and more damage points but it is a shame about the manoeverability.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

The DH2 still has the advantages of a better rate of climb and more damage points but it is a shame about the manoeverability.

Actually I enjoy pitting unequal machines against each other. It must be all this Albert Ball influence, but I can understand for the good of everyone in the game that we must get a balanced group of aircraft together. Funny thing is that Albert Ball is only one of two pilots that I have ever achieve Ace status.
Rob.

[gully_raker]

Actually I enjoy pitting unequal machines against each other. It must be all this Albert Ball influence, but I can understand for the good of everyone in the game that we must get a balanced group of aircraft together. Funny thing is that Albert Ball is only one of two pilots that I have ever achieve Ace status.
Rob.

Maybe he is directing your Manouvers from that big place in the Empty Blue?

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Stranger things than that have happened at sea Barry. As we are starting to discover for ourselves elsewhere.(Trying to be enigmatic.)
Rob.

[gully_raker]

Stranger things than that have happened at sea Barry. As we are starting to discover for ourselves elsewhere.(Trying to be enigmatic.)
Rob.

Does "Enigmatic" come after too many G & T's.?

Oh I know, there can NEVER be TOO many G & T's!

[Oberst Hajj]

One thing to keep in mind guys... The game is boiled down to very simple aspects that are the foundation of the entire game. In the case of the E.III vs. DH.2, the underlying problem is not actually the maneuver decks, it is the limitation of the damage decks. Since all single gun planes use the B damage deck, both of these planes have to use the same damage deck. In game turns, that means the E.III is not going to shine as a gun platform since all the other planes of the time will be the same when it comes to shooting. Now, the only variable in the game that could make the E.III a better gun platform in the game is the maneuver deck. If you make it slightly more maneuverable then other planes of it's time, it will theoretically be able to get into shooting position easier and more often... thus translating into a better gun platform in the game!

Now, this same fix does bump into problems with planes that came out shortly after it that were indeed more maneuverable. At some point you are going to have to correct the "extra" maneuverability induced by things like this. Other wise by the time you get to the D.VII, that thing would have 50 cards in its maneuver deck and could do three 270 turns in a row! The very thing Rob was eluding to.

[Zoe Brain]

The E.III shone against its competition - BE2s, Voisins, early Farmans, unarmed Bristol Scouts.... it was deadly because it had a machine gun, others didn't. It out-manouvered a Gunbus though. Just. The Gunbus was tougher.

The problem is that all the aircraft that it used to prey upon aren't in the official list of miniatures. The Morane N was marginally inferior, but the DH2 greatly superior. The G and P decks are reversed. The E.IV as flown by Immelman couldn't actually do an Immelman, not when fitted with 3 guns.

Morane N vs Fokker E.III is a fair fight. So is DH2 vs Halberstadt II.

Now that we have models for the early-war stuff, you'll see the E.III do massive execution. Not because R is a wonderful deck compared to G, but because it's great vs XD - especially when the opposition only has a rifle, and 10 damage points. It can out-manouver a gunbus, but the gunbus's larger arc and greater damage makes that a fair fight too.

The E.IV with a P deck and 2 guns has to use "boom and zoom", just at half the speed of a Spad XIII, but with comparatively even greater armament.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Does "Enigmatic" come after too many G & T's.?

Oh I know, there can NEVER be TOO many G & T's!

No Barry! That's automatic, not enigmatic. Enigmatic is why there are never enough G&Ts.
Rob.

[Zoe Brain]

The problem with upgrading the DH2 is the knock on eff ect that this will have on the aircraft above it.

It's because of that effect that the DH2 and Halberstadt D.II need upgrading. They're too weak at the moment to have soldiered on into 1917 effectively. A DH2 vs an Albatros D.II may not be quite a fair fight, (the D.II is faster, and has twice the firepower) but it should be no pushover.

See Von Richtofen's fight vs Hawker.

[Pooh]

Col.

I understand your concern, hense the very conservative solutions being proposed. The problem with the current situation is not necessarily with the eindekker being too good, its that the DH2 and the Halberstadt have been too penalized. Swapping the P & G decks solves both issues. The eindekker is now slightly weaker vs. the DH2 and the DH2 is now a little buffed against later planes. It will still be at a disadvantage vs. the Albatros scouts and we haven't added any cards to the decks.
I think this is in keeping with later planes having advantages over the earlier ones. The problem for the EIII is that no one is producing those planes that are its natural prey, yet!

Pooh

[Naharaht]

Is it too late for a revised manoevering deck for the DH2 to be inserted with the models when they are issued?

[Oberst Hajj]

I don't see Ares changing any of the maneuver decks for planes that have already been released. It would cause to much confusion and cost them money to do so.

[Zoe Brain]

I don't see Ares changing any of the maneuver decks for planes that have already been released. It would cause to much confusion and cost them money to do so.

Given that it's only the Immelman pack that has the problem, and there has been no release of Ares models for that (yet), now is the time if they're going to do it. It wouldn't cost them anything apart from a minor change to artwork on some 30 cards. As they may have to re-do the artwork anyway, as was done for WWII, it may not cost them anything. WoW would still be compatible with WGF.

[Oberst Hajj]

Maybe, but going off of how they handled adding altitude into the game (putting the missing altitude cards from FA in to WYB), I would think they would want to rectify the old Immelmann pack as well. The WoW DH2 would not be compatible with WGF version as they would have different stats and use different decks. Also, depending on which cards were on the full sheet with the DH2, it could be a lot of cards that had to be redone to correct what "we' think is a mistake. I just don't see it happening.