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Thread: House Rules - Combat Manoeuvres

  1. #1

    Default House Rules - Combat Manoeuvres

    Hello,

    I think that the three basic combat manoeuvres are "Immelmann", "Split-S" and "Barrel Roll".
    The importance of the "Barrel Roll" manoeuvre is that we can lose practically one movement card and get behind the enemy airplane.

    Can someone help me to build a card sequence to simulate a Barrel Roll?

    My regards

  2. #2

    Default

    Hello,

    The three turn in each movement phase, represents each one a third of the total time available for movement, that also mean the linear distance that a airplane will be capable of run.

    So, the manoeuvre "Barrel Roll", also called "retournment", is a manoeuvre that use a change of motion in the three axes, and as in the Immelmann, the fighter pilot do a climb at 90º.

    In the second part of the "Immelmann" instead of inverting is position an gain altitude, after initial climb he turn to the right, or to the left, and start do fall down.

    As soon he is descending he turns, again, to the direction parallel to the starting one and maintains the initial heading. There is no gain or loss of altitude with this manoeuvre.

    In combat, and if we have an enemy airplane tailing us, the "Barrel Roll" (right or left), the Immelmann and the Split-S, are surprise manoeuvres that can break tailing. By the way, the Barrel Roll only have effect if the enemy is tailing at very short range.

    With this side roll the pilot can "slow" is run in relation to the tailing airplane without losing power, altitude and velocity, just jumping to is side or rear.



    House Rule

    Like Immelmann turn, in the Barrel Roll turn we have to play a straight card just before the Barrel Roll and another just after.

    Add a blanc card (you may write "Barrel Roll" in the card) to your movement deck, and use it as an normal movement deck card.

    The tactical movement is: move the airplane parallel to is position, to right or left, one card distance. (just that, if properly used the enemy airplane will past thru you!)
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Carlos Lopes; 12-28-2009 at 04:33. Reason: to add the file - Combat Manoeuvre

  3. #3

    Default

    I think I would just use a stall - slip - stall to simulate a barrel roll with the cards already out. That will kill your forward momentum and move you slightly to the side. As the true barrel roll, it will only help you out if they are flying close behind you.

  4. #4

    krolik's Avatar



    Name
    Victor
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    Default

    Don't the wide side slips in some of the decks simulate the barrel roll?

  5. #5

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by krolik View Post
    Don't the wide side slips in some of the decks simulate the barrel roll?
    Hello,

    I think not, the barrel roll is a manoeuvre that intent to make a "stand by" and move our airplane from the front of the enemy to the at the rear of the enemy airplane.

    The side slips maintain a forward move that is nor the intended.

    The problem of use a "stall - slip - stall" to simulate a "barrel roll" is that at end the airplane is turned in the opposite direction and lost altitude. (in barrel roll we maintain the altitude)

    YouTube Dog Fights WWI

    (1/5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj7bPQXEUfo
    (2/5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg8Wa1fMfQE (see the 4:30 mn of the video)
    (3/5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmPbT9UUvkc (see also 4:30mn of the video)
    (4/5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdLwBwZZsA8
    (5/5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qljc_g_CNE4



    My regards
    Last edited by Carlos Lopes; 12-27-2009 at 14:11. Reason: to add information

  6. #6

    Default

    Why would a stall - slip - stall turn you in the opposite direction at a different altitude???

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    Why would a stall - slip - stall turn you in the opposite direction at a different altitude???
    Sorry, by mistake I read "slip" for "split".


    My regards

  8. #8

  9. #9

    green dragon's Avatar
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    Name
    Kevin
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    Default

    Hmm, it seems to me that a climb/slip would simulate the barrel roll as you have it illustrated.

    My question would be has anyone seen any documentation that the pilots/aircraft of the time were able to do this maneuver? Whenever we incorporate a new move into our group, we like to see documentation first. This helped us to correct the Immelman and incorporate the loop.

  10. #10

    Default

    I've not looked for any documents on if they could do a barrel roll, I thought it was pretty much a given.

    I think the very wide slips some of the planes already have simulate a barrel roll just fine.

  11. #11

    Default

    Hello,

    I’m now reading the “Fighting the Flying Circus”, of Captain Rickenbacker, edited in 1919, and one of the maneuvers is “TAILSPIN”.

    It is a rapid descend of the airplane in a steep spiral spin, often fatal. But if it is often is because sometimes the pilot could get out and survive.

    As a defensive scheme how can we represent it in the game?

    Any suggestion?

    My regards

  12. #12

    Default Spinning in combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Lopes View Post
    Hello,

    I’m now reading the “Fighting the Flying Circus”, of Captain Rickenbacker, edited in 1919, and one of the maneuvers is “TAILSPIN”.

    It is a rapid descend of the airplane in a steep spiral spin, often fatal. But if it is often is because sometimes the pilot could get out and survive.

    As a defensive scheme how can we represent it in the game?

    Any suggestion?

    My regards
    Hi Carlos,

    I am running a WW1 campaign at the moment, and we have addressed this issue with the following house rule:

    ‘Illegal Moves’

    If a player plans an illegal move (for example, two steep manoeuvres in a row), at the moment in which that manoeuvre has to be performed, the aircraft goes out of control. The player immediately selects a ‘C’ damage card (ignoring special damage) to represent structural damage sustained by their aircraft. If altitude rules are in effect the aircraft also immediately loses two altitude levels. If the damage taken equals or exceeds the remaining damage threshold of the aircraft, and/or all altitude levels are lost, the aircraft is considered destroyed.

    This allows a pilot in a bad situation to intentionally perform an illegal manoeuvre, spin down two altitude levels, then recover (hopefully).

    Entering a spin is not without risk however.

    Cheers,

    Carl.

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Hi Carlos,

    I am running a WW1 campaign at the moment, and we have addressed this issue with the following house rule:

    ‘Illegal Moves’

    If a player plans an illegal move (for example, two steep manoeuvres in a row), at the moment in which that manoeuvre has to be performed, the aircraft goes out of control. The player immediately selects a ‘C’ damage card (ignoring special damage) to represent structural damage sustained by their aircraft. If altitude rules are in effect the aircraft also immediately loses two altitude levels. If the damage taken equals or exceeds the remaining damage threshold of the aircraft, and/or all altitude levels are lost, the aircraft is considered destroyed.

    This allows a pilot in a bad situation to intentionally perform an illegal manoeuvre, spin down two altitude levels, then recover (hopefully).

    Entering a spin is not without risk however.

    Cheers,

    Carl.


    Hello,

    Do you suggest that we do intentionally an illegal maneuver to perform a tailspin?

    In what direction is the airplane when it gains control? Is in the direction that the player wants?

    Ok, I agree that to determine the damage the player takes immediately a ‘C’ damage card (ignoring special damage) to represent structural damage sustained by their aircraft.

    My regards

  14. #14

    green dragon's Avatar
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    Kevin
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    Default

    Well, why bother with doing the illegal maneuver? If the spin is going to be a viable maneuver (as it apparently was), why not just make it a voluntary move? Maybe if you play two stall cards in a row as a start, to signify the loss of airspeed (of course, that would be an illegal move for most planes). Then, let's say, you roll a d6 to each turn to see if you recover, until all levels are lost. That would give you some time... you could throw a modifier in for experience pilots.

  15. #15

    Default Illegal maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Lopes View Post
    Hello,

    Do you suggest that we do intentionally an illegal maneuver to perform a tailspin?

    In what direction is the airplane when it gains control? Is in the direction that the player wants?

    Ok, I agree that to determine the damage the player takes immediately a ‘C’ damage card (ignoring special damage) to represent structural damage sustained by their aircraft.

    My regards
    We brought this variation in to replace the illegal maneuver = aircraft destroyed rule. Since then players have worked out that they could intentionally go into a spin to avoid an enemy. For simplicity's sake the aircraft ends up facing the same direction it started, although you could introduce a d6 roll to determine end facing.

  16. #16

    Default Recovery from a spin

    Quote Originally Posted by green dragon View Post
    Well, why bother with doing the illegal maneuver? If the spin is going to be a viable maneuver (as it apparently was), why not just make it a voluntary move? Maybe if you play two stall cards in a row as a start, to signify the loss of airspeed (of course, that would be an illegal move for most planes). Then, let's say, you roll a d6 to each turn to see if you recover, until all levels are lost. That would give you some time... you could throw a modifier in for experience pilots.
    I figured since all pilots (from about mid 1915 on) learned to recover from spins during flight training they should be able to pull out after two levels (about 3000 feet).
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 02-04-2010 at 22:54.

  17. #17

    Default

    to resurrect and old thread~!

    just wondering what people use for a spin these days? and a barrel role? I imagine a climb card could be used for a spin... to indicate rapid loss of speed.
    barrel roll wise could one use a steep side slip card one direction, followed by a non steep side slip the opposite direction, but only using half the card to measure?

  18. #18

    Default

    Have a look at this thread Evan, may answer your questions about spinning at least

  19. #19

    Default

    thanks! i searched but missed that one

  20. #20

    Default

    I can't pull up the file combat maneuvers, help

  21. #21

    Default My understanding of a barrel roll

    To my understanding, a barrel roll is what's known as a "lag displacement" roll, in that the purpose is to slow you down while allowing you maintain the same direction of travel.

    A barrel roll should not be confused with a simple aileron roll, in which an aircraft simply spins around its central axis. This accomplishes nothing in a combat situation, and is just a flashy maneuver performed at air shows and the like.

    A barrel roll gets its name because the aircraft travels in a spiral, as if it's moving along the outside surface of a tube (i.e., a barrel).The aircraft is made to climb upward while simultaneously performing the first half of an aileron roll, then diving while performing the second half of an aileron roll. When the barrel roll has been completed, the aircraft will be back at its original level and traveling in the original direction, but it will have bled off speed by performing the helix-shaped maneuver.

    To my understanding, the reason a barrel roll was so useful in combat was that not only would the complexity of the maneuver (which causes the aircraft to modify its path along all three axis) make the aircraft much more difficult to be hit by tailing enemies, but it would potentially also allow the aircraft to slow down enough for its enemy to overshoot it, with the enemy passing right through the spiral and unexpectedly finding himself now the one being tailed.

    If I'm wrong about all that, please let me know.

    One way to simulate it in the game would be to do a "left sideslip"-"climb"-"right sideslip" (or vice-versa).

    Although the idea of representing a barrel roll as a sideslip-climb-sideslip seems intuitive, however, it doesn't produce the most important result of a barrel roll: a sharp decrease in speed. Therefore, a more accurate card combination to represent the maneuver might be a stall-climb-stall (or possibly a stall-climb-stall-dive

    Whichever card combination is used to represent it, the following rules need to be added in regards to the maneuver: (a) the aircraft will be at its original altitude level immediately after completing the maneuver, and (b) while doing the maneuver, the difficulty for it to be hit by tailing aircraft is modified as if the aircraft had gone up one level. (And, yes, that would potentially make the aircraft easier to hit if it is a level below an aircraft tailing it when it does the maneuver. Whether that reflects reality or not, I don't know, but I'm guessing that if somebody was on your tail and they were above you, there would be easier ways to shake them off than performing a barrel roll.)

    I'll be looking forward to reading what everybody thinks.

    -- Eris

  22. #22

    Default

    Always found this to be a difficult thing to replicate Eris & not sure how often it would get used but it does have some merit for both attacker & defender so well worth revisiting the idea. I always prefer to try & keep things to a 'three card trick' if I can so I like where you're coming from. I think the 'stall-climb-stall' might be too drastic a loss of speed so would lean towards the "left sideslip"-"climb"-"right sideslip" idea. As the start of the move involves climbing I would go for a 'climb-left sideslip-right sideslip' combo. For it to be effective the bad guy would have to be right on your tail but that does happen from time to time and I've used the three card loop to counter that up to now but it would be nice to have other options.
    Had a look on the 'net and found this on wiki which shows the many different types of barrel roll and displacement rolls that there are - they are quite different so could lead to further card combos being offered !

  23. #23

    Default

    That's an interesting read... I had no idea there were so many variations. Deserves some thought, definitely.



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