Ares Games
Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: SPAD Cannon

  1. #1

    Default SPAD Cannon

    I have been fascinated with a little know WWI aircraft flown by Frances top aces. The SPAD XII Ca. was modified SPAD with a mounted cannon. Read the accumulated info I gathered from the web on this plane below.

    Charlie3 and I put our heads together and came up with a working set of rules for the SPAD Cannon plane. Charlie3 painted the plane. I did the art for the card.




    Whilst on leave, and as active as ever, George Guynemer, France’s top ace at the time, discussed with the various authorities in the aviation field the possible improvements to the fighting ability of the current French fighter aircraft, and the Spad S VII in particular. One of these experts – Louis Bechereau, the SPAD Company’s senior designer – proposed the modification of the deadly 37mm (1.5-inch) Hotchkiss cannon to fire through the hollow crankshaft of the Spad S VII’s Hispano-Suiza V-8 engine. The project came to fruition and a trial commissioning of the Spad XII.Ca. (i.e. with the cannon) followed.

    Using the SPAD VII as a base, SPAD engineers mounted at 37 mm cannon barrel through the propeller hub, in addition to the standard single Vickers machine gun. The hollow shaft ran between the cylinder blocks of the Hispano-Suiza power plant so that when the cannon was fired, its shell actually passed through the center of the engine and exited out the center of the prop. Once fired, the cannon had to be reloaded manually, one shell at a time. The pilot reached down between his legs and opened the breech, ejected the spent shell and reloaded another. Once the breech was opened, the cockpit quickly filled with smoke and fumes. Reloading the cannon was therefore extremely difficult unless the pilot could manage to break free of the combat for a few moments

    Georges Guynemer, whose prompting led to the development of the cannon-SPAD, used the first SPAD XII in July of 1917. He scored his 49th through 52nd kills in it, referring fondly to the machine as his "avion magique." He was still flying the machine intermittently with the new SPAD XIII when he was killed in action on September 11, 1917.

  2. #2

    Eliminator's Avatar
    Users Country Flag


    Name
    allen
    Location
    huskerplex
    Sorties Flown
    40
    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default

    wow...a "C" deck cannon would tear a plane apart very fast...was there any central powers planes with this?

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliminator View Post
    wow...a "C" deck cannon would tear a plane apart very fast...was there any central powers planes with this?
    Not that I'm aware of. We think it makes sense that this would have worked best as a anti-bomber or ground target plane.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliminator View Post
    wow...a "C" deck cannon would tear a plane apart very fast...was there any central powers planes with this?
    You got that right!! Last week we gave it a fly in a scenario with a ground target to be attacked. He flew in with support and made a real mess of the target, however another aircraft finished it off. He managed to get 3 other shots off at aircraft and did a zero, and I think a 3 but the last shot was at me from long range for the cannon (1 1/2 range sticks!!!!) I THOUGHT I was out of range thinking of normal shooting ranges. He reached out and touched me for the 10 card that is in that deck. Since my Dr1 was already missing 5 damage points he turned my plane to confetti!! It was better than an explosion card

    I'm really glad we decided to really limit the availability of this plane.
    We had discussed that it would make a great scenario plane for a mission called THE SECRET WEAPON.

  5. #5

    Default

    Cool idea and well done. Minimal alteration to the rules and you get the desired effect.
    I take it that you keep track of ammo for it. Though with the reloading time most of our games would be done by the time you went through 8 rounds.

    Pooh

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooh View Post
    Cool idea and well done. Minimal alteration to the rules and you get the desired effect.
    I take it that you keep track of ammo for it. Though with the reloading time most of our games would be done by the time you went through 8 rounds.

    Pooh
    So far keeping track of ammo is a non issue, like you said most games are over by the time you would use up 8 rounds. The real plane carried 12 rounds, we were trying to balance the planes power.

  7. #7

    Default

    While looking for further information on this variation of the SPAD XII, I found the two following pieces of info:
    _________________________________________________________

    During WWI, several specially equipped SPAD XII Fighter planes were built with 37 MM cannons that fired through the propellor shaft. The design had several faults including noxious gas that filled the cockpit after firing the cannon. Another problem was that the cannon was a single shot and had to be reloaded by hand after each shot! Couple that with the violent energy of the recoil, the stress of aerial combat and the speed of the plane, this was no easy task. Still, if you hit your target, it was destroyed. SPAD "0" was the only Ca.1 in the American Air Service, it was originally intended for the American Ace David Putnam, but when Putnam was KIA over the front, the machine was given to his friend Capt Charles J. Biddle, CO of the 13th Aero Squadron, The Devil's Own Grim Reapers. Capt Biddle found the SPAD XII Ca.1 37 mm cannon difficult to operate, but stated that "if a shot ever hits a Hun, he might as well say his prayers...".

    Capt. Biddle had 7 confirmed victories (10 probable) in WWI flying first with the Escadrille N. 73, then with Lafayette Escadrille and later with the 103rd Aero Squadron U.S.A.S. and the 13th Aero Squadron U.S.A.S. where he was CO, he eventually ended the war as CO of the 4th Pursuit Group.
    ____________________________________________________________________________

    Hispano-Suiza Model 8 Ca V-8 Engine

    Hispano-Suiza Model 8 Ca

    In 1917 Hispano-Suiza developed the Model 8 Ca, which featured an innovative cast-aluminum cylinder construction with internal water passages. It also had a 37 mm Puteaux cannon mounted between the cylinder banks that could fire through the hollow propeller shaft. French ace Georges Guynemer used the first of these "moteurs-canon," or cannon engines, on a SPAD XII and shot down one enemy aircraft. French aces Charles Nungesser and Rene Fonck also used cannon-equipped SPADs.

    The cannon fired only one shot at a time, an extreme disadvantage in combat. Development of the cannon engines continued through the Hispano-Suiza Model K, an experimental engine designed to carry a fully automatic 37 mm cannon.
    _______________________________________________________________________

  8. #8

    Default

    Thanks for the extended info, I had no idea that Amercans had one. Most of the accounts of Guynemer claim he shot down 2 with cannon in tandem with machine gun, Fonck shot 11 with plane.
    Last edited by LGKR; 12-16-2009 at 17:12. Reason: spelling

  9. #9

    Zeppelin's Avatar
    Users Country Flag


    Name
    John
    Location
    Ohio, USA
    Sorties Flown
    147
    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default

    Cool idea LGKR, I just hope I don't have to fly against one. LOL

  10. #10

    Default

    Looks great, love the model and the art work as well. Great Job!

  11. #11

    Default

    Scary plane !

    Might I suggest that you do something to limit it's use against single-seaters ?
    I'd expect that it'd be pretty hard to use a single-shot 37mm against any target that was able to evade effectively.

    I'd suggest using the rocket rules from Burning Drachens (the target has to be in your firing arc the phase after you fire or you miss) or the solo AA gun rules (you draw an A-card and if it has any special damage you discard it and draw a C-card, otherwise no damage).

  12. #12

    Default

    Accoding the most of what I have read they were mainly used as dogfighters.The real plane's pilots would fire the machine gun and when they knew they were hitting thier target they would fire the cannon.
    We thought for game purposes it made more sense to use as it an anti-bomber or for ground targets. We limited its manueverablity and speed. Although the real plane was faster and could probably do an Immelmann we wanted to not make it too over powered.

  13. #13

    Default

    Throughout the war years, the Royal Navy experimented extensively with the Davis gun, a recoilless rifle developed by a US Navy commander between 1911 and 1914. The Davis gun worked on the counter-shot principle, in which a mass equal to the shell is ejected to the rear upon firing. In essence, the weapon consisted of a pair of equal-length, light-weight gun tubes mounted breech to breech on a common chamber. For loading, the rear-facing, counter shot barrel could be unlocked and pivoted around a rod parallel to the axis of the gun. The round consisted of the high-explosive shell and an equal weight of lead bird shot, with the propellant charge in between. Guns were available for aircraft use in a range of calibres: 2-pounder (~40-mm cal), 6-pounder (~57-mm), 12-pounder (~76-mm), and 50-pounder (~127-mm). The guns had a muzzle-velocity of about 1200 ft/sec (370 m/sec) and an effective range of about 2000 yds (1846 m). The weapons were light, but bulky—10 ft (3.1 m) long. The 2-pounder weighed 70 lbs (32 kg), the 6-pounder 208 lbs, and the 12-pounder 208 lbs, all with mounting.


    6-pounder (57 mm) Davis gun with Lewis sighting machine gun

    While all the guns performed impressively and fired extremely destructive shells, it was quickly found that they could not be readily trained when mounted in ordinary service airplanes, such as the BE.2. The formidable, dual muzzle blasts could severely damage structural members within three ft (1 m) of either muzzle, and the heavy shot charge could destroy any part of the aircraft in its path. This discovery led to a range of designs for bizarre, special-purpose cannon fighters, most of which took their inspiration from warship design practices.

    The Robey-Peters Davis-Gun Carrier was a three-seat, single-engined biplane with a pair of upper-wing gondolas for the gunners and their Davis guns. The pilot sat well aft, where his view for night takeoffs and landings must have been awful. The 3-bay wings spanned 54.5 ft (16.75 m), and the aircraft was 29.75 ft (9.2 m) long. The gunners sat 12 feet (3.7 m) in the air. The aircraft featured a large, anti-noseover skid and wing-mounted air brakes. Even with a 250-hp Rolls-Royce Eagle engine, the aircraft could barely get off the ground, and it was destroyed in a crash on its first flight.

    More remarkable still, the Supermarine PB.31E Night Hawk was a twin-engined, 3- to 5-seat, 6-bay, fighter quadruplane equipped with a heated and enclosed cockpit, a bunk for an off-duty crew member, a trainable nose-mounted searchlight, a 5-hp 2-stroke APU, armoured fuel and control lines, a 2-pounder Davis gun with 20 shells, and 2 .303-cal Lewis guns. The airplane spanned 60 ft (18.5 m), stood 17.75 ft (5.5 m) high, and was almost 37 ft (11.4 m) long. With two 100-hp Anzani air-cooled radial engines, it was supposed to reach 75 mph and manage patrols of 9 to 18 hours. To give the Davis gun the best possible arcs of fire, it was mounted above the top wing. Unfortunately, the prototype only managed 60 mph at 6500 ft and took an hour to climb to 10,000 ft—both totally inadequate for intercepting airships. Given the Anzani's reputation for unreliability and overheating, it is unlikely that the airplane would have delivered the advertised endurance either. The aircraft was scrapped. (It is however notable that one of the design team was none other than R.J. Mitchell, the designer of the Spitfire.)


    Supermarine PB 31E 'Nighthawk' 1388, with 2 pounder Davis Gun - a 2 cylinder ABC auxiliary power unit is installed aft of the main engine

    Experiments with the Davis gun soon showed that a devastating shell was not enough to make a weapon effective in air combat. The Davis gun suffered from a low rate of fire, because, for each shot, the gunner had to manually unlock the breech, swing the rear barrel aside, wrestle the oversized cartridge into place, and close the action again, all while trying to keep the gun trained on the target. In action, this made the Davis a one-shot weapon, and, even with the help of a tracer-firing Lewis gun for aiming, single-round hits were all but impossible. In any case, by 1917, when the Robey-Peters and Supermarine gun carriers finally flew, minimally modified, standard, service fighters had proved entirely satisfactory. The Davis gun was relegated to anti-submarine use, mounted on flying boats and RNAS Handley-Page bombers, and soon abandoned altogether.

    from http://www.century-of-flight.freeola...%20defence.htm

  14. #14

    Default

    I am always amazed at the amount of other information that will come out of the woodwork as soon as you find something unusual and report it. I had read about Davis Guns but never heard of them being used for aircraft. i just can't even imagine that!

    According to the specs we found the Hochkis Gun mounted on the Spad XII made the plane VERY heavy and must have made it difficult to fly. This caused them to mount only one machine gun and it only carried 30 rounds. Which is why we chose to use the "K" maneuver deck.

  15. #15

    Default

    I think that posts such as this one are the reasons that I love this site... It wasn't enough that they built planes from wood and cloth... lets also strap cannons to it! better yet, lets put a cannon inside the thing that keeps us from falling out of the sky!

    I can't wait to put this plane into my game! Excellent work, and once I get it out on the board, I'll let you know how it worked out!

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie3 View Post
    We had discussed that it would make a great scenario plane for a mission called THE SECRET WEAPON.
    Here is the SECRET WEAPON scenario.
    The Central Empires spys have uncovered the date and route for the delivery of a new secret aircraft, however they have not discovered what it is. The mission is to intercept this flight and attempt to gather information on the plane and hopefully destroy it.


    LOCATION: Behind Allied lines.
    YEAR: Mid 1917
    COMBAT AREA: A 3x6 foot table.
    ALLIED FORCES:
    -The Allied flight consists of the Spad XII and at least 3 other aircraft of 1916 or 1917.
    -The formation starts the battle 1 range stick from a 3 foot table end.
    -Arrange aircraft cards upside down to mask which aircraft is the SpadXII, when movement begins flip the cards face up and replace with models if using them.
    -All aircraft in the formation must start 1/2 a range stick from another friendly aircraft.

    CENTRAL EMPIRES FORCES:
    -The Central Empires flight consists of a minimum of 4 aircraft of 1916 or 1917
    -The formation starts the battle 2 range sticks in front of the allied formation, they may choose to attack directly from the front or at a 45 degree angle from either side.
    -All aircraft in the formation must start 12 a range stick from another friendly aircraft.

    SPECIAL CONDITIONS:
    -The Spad XII must exit the opposite table edge to be considered delivered.
    -The Spad XII may engauge in combat, but must exit the nearest table edge or land if it catches fire, or only has 3 damage points left.

    VICTORY CONDITIONS:
    -The Central Empires forces win a major victory if they down or destroy the Spad XII
    -The Central Empires forces win a minor victory if they force the SpadXII to land or leave the combat area due to damage, or if one of their planes leaves the combat area after the SpadXII uses it's cannon.

    -The Allied forces win a major victory if the SpadXII can do down or destroy one enemy aircraft and exit the opposite table end, or they destroy all of the enemy aircraft.
    -The Allied forces win a minor victory if the SpadXII exits the opposite table end.

    Have fun!
    Last edited by Charlie3; 01-12-2010 at 11:52.

  17. #17

    Default

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Equipment_Card-37mmCannon1.jpg 
Views:	89 
Size:	263.5 KB 
ID:	226693

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Equipment_Card--DavisGun-Std1.jpg 
Views:	89 
Size:	232.3 KB 
ID:	226694
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  18. #18

    Default

    Great cards Mike !
    Note - Davis guns of other sizes were available
    The gun was made in three sizes of 1.57 inch (3.9878 cm), 2.45 inch (6.223 cm), and 3 inch (7.62 cm), taking 2 pound (Approximately 0.9 kilograms), 6 pound (Approximately 2.72 kilograms) and 12 pound (Approximately 5.44 kilograms) shots respectively. How much combat they saw I don't know but could be fun to use in a scenario.

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Great cards Mike !
    Note - Davis guns of other sizes were available
    The gun was made in three sizes of 1.57 inch (3.9878 cm), 2.45 inch (6.223 cm), and 3 inch (7.62 cm), taking 2 pound (Approximately 0.9 kilograms), 6 pound (Approximately 2.72 kilograms) and 12 pound (Approximately 5.44 kilograms) shots respectively. How much combat they saw I don't know but could be fun to use in a scenario.
    Saw that, Dave, but stuck with the 'printed' version.

    The Davis Gun was used more extensively by the US Navy after the Great War, and British use was trialed, not an 'operational' weapon, based on my skimming of the Interweb.

    We could do What-Ifs. However, what stats? Double, or triple, the damage? I could see these bigger guns in HP O/100s.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

    Default

    Might need that against the Martians, Mike

  21. #21

    Default

    All new to me, but would be great fun to game with!



Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •