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Thread: Building Dirigibles (Airships) from scrach. Building the R-34 and the L-11.

  1. #1

    Default Building Dirigibles (Airships) from scrach. Building the R-34 and the L-11.

    The Day of the Dirigibles by Clipper 1801 aka Dave Haught



    As soon as I saw the Wings of War Deluxe starter game I was hooked on the game and at the same time in the back of my mind something awoke, long dormant, a dream of dirigibles joining the fray. My dirigible thing goes way back to childhood, as I dreamily drew Snoopy flying his red dog house against the Red Baron I began to extend and expand his dog house into a huge red white and blue dirigible, taking on the whole Flying Circus. In the 60’s I made zeppelins out of the carpet tubes from the groovy shag carpet my dad was installing in the family room, even equipped G.I Joe with one to fly out of my second floor bedroom window to rescue Barbie and her friends from the apple tree across the yard. I guess I should get some therapy.

    Back to the reality at hand. As my son Andrew and I played a few games of Wings of War, I kept thinking there has to be some lighter than air action out there on the front lines. The observation balloons were cool, and added some great scenery, but they could not move or fight back. After watching Flyboys a third and forth time I realized what we needed, a pair of airships that could fly through the airspace, make a bombing run and fly back off into the great beyond. I did some digging and found my library had some great books and specifications on many potential airships.



    The challenge then was which ones. I knew one had to be German and one British. They also had to be early models, they had so much more character than the later designs. In my research I discovered the L-11 Zeppelin fit the requirements on the German side. It had the transitional high rider rear engines and the first of the fully elliptical profile. My archives came up with some interesting photos and even excerpts from the real flight logs. Then I dug out a long lost tome from the dusty back shelf of oversized books. “Airships, An Illustrated History,” by Henry Beaubois and published back in 1973. As I thumbed through its 200 plus pages and zillions of large cool photos and drawings, a fold out color print of the L-11 flipped open and I was totally convinced. It had enlarged line drawings of the nacelles, the gunner positions, all the numbers and even cross sections! That was easy!


    Then a few pages later were the same details for the British R-34! I started doing the numbers for 1/144 scale versions of both and discovered they were going to be well over 42” long. I had to do some re-thinking. As I pondered size I also thought about altitude issues in the game, the dirigibles were high altitude creatures and many of the fighters were on tiny stands for max altitude, at scale the airships would overwhelm the airplanes. Then I started making some scale size cutouts and began comparing other relative scales. I decided they would be better to be smaller that 1/144 scale, and finally settled on 1/233 scale. It looked right for the planes and game tables, so the size was set. I also determined they had to be well detailed, but also pretty rugged for game handling.







    Meanwhile on the other side of my brain I was engineering the possible construction scenarios. In the midst of running the numbers I came across the R-23. As one studies the actual construction and design of the airships, one quickly sees how advanced the Zeppelins were to any others. The Vickers R-23 was the old style straight cylinder design with elliptical the nose and tail sections spliced on. That made the engineering easier, and the resulting airship looking rather crude compared to the elegant German designs. What really caught my eye was the even more primitive Vickers R-23’s deep ventral keel. It was very cool enough, then of course I discovered the Sopwith Camel tests they conducted on it. That sold me on the Vickers R-23!

    Now I had two airships that were distinctive and well matched. Next was how to build them strong enough and realistic. As I crunched the overall size the L-11 would be 27” long and 3 ½” in diameter and the R-23 around 26” long and 3 ¼” in diameter. I had just finished a rocket building class where we built the rocket body tubes from 3” diameter mailing tubes 48” long, I just happened to have a few extra tubes laying around. So if you added stringers to the tubes you could get to my target diameters with very little fussing around. The tubes came with nice heavy plastic caps that snapped onto the tubes, to which I could attach the nose and tail cone formers. The pictures should tell the story.



    I used firm 3/32” balsa sheet for the formers with triangular spacers to keep them spaced apart. A quick cross section was laid out with 17 sections giving me a scale spacing for the longerons. Using CA glue I tacked the vertical and horizontal formers to the end caps, then added the inbetweeners. Once I liked them, I drenched the joints with more CA, let them cure over night.



    Next day I snapped the end caps to a spare tube and used my belt sander to blend the straight tube section into the formers using the main vertical and horizontal formers as guides. The second construction shot shows the results.



    Then the tricky part. A pine 1” x 2” x 12” was sanded and glued inside the tube on what would become the bottom of the airships. This will later be drilled into to receive the mounting posts for the finished models.

    Now the full length stingers were added running from the rear curved formers, across the straight tube section and onto the nose formers. These were first pinned into place on the rear formers, pulled tight and pinned to the front formers. Tack glue them to the formers and use a straight edge to make sure they are straight and parallel to each other on the tube before using CA to glue them to the tubes. Takes a lot of time-but take it to get the job done right! Set aside to cure, locate and cut sheet balsa fillers to span between the stringers where the top gun emplacement go and the nacelles. Sand them flush with the stringers and blend the stringers into the curve of the nose and tail formers. Now wasn’t that easy?



    The fins, rudders, and keel are made from firm 1/8” balsa, fitted carefully to match the contours of the tail formers, but not attached until after the covering is put on.



    The covering is the tricky part. I chose heavy weight silk span tissue. This comes from a good hobby shop or Sig Manufacturing in Iowa. You could use heavy craft tissue, but it is not as strong as silk span and does not shrink uniformly. I looked at using silk or another fabric to get the fabric effect on the finished models, but at this scale I would be wasting my time. The tissue is cut into ¾” wide strips 3” longer than the model. The stringers and formers were given 4 coats of model airplane dope to seal the wood and to build up a layer of dope. Each strip is then placed in position on the stringers and acetone is brushed through the tissue, which begins to soften the dope on the stringers, sticking the tissue to them.

    You have to proceed slowly and carefully, trimming off any excess tissue as you go. The last bay will need to be trimmed to size before it is stuck down. After the covering is done, give the tissue a light misting of water to shrink it tight. Small wrinkles are ok and even scale! Once the tissue is dry apply 4 to 5 coats of thinned dope (50% dope-50% acetone). If you puncture it or have bad sections you can cut them out, trim a patch and dope it in place, just like they did on the real things.

    Finally scan the ships, fill any gaps with water based wall spackle, sand, and attach the fins and keel. I put two light coats of automotive primer on mine, sanding lightly between coats. The Vickers gets a bright aluminum enamel spray whilst the Zeppelin gets a four color camo treatment of black green, light pale green, light sand brown and dark earth brown.

    Rudders and elevators are attached with short strips of copper wire to act as bendable hinges, holes are drilled for the base mount wires. I used pairs of telescoping tubing so I could adjust altitude and attitude on the finished airships. A trip to the local auto parts store with $10 will buy you 4-5 of these units with rare earth magnets on the ends to pick up dropped bolts. I clipped off the magnets and drilled holes the same size into the bottom of each model on 9” centers (remember to hit the pine blocks).





    Bases were made from 3/8” thick Plexiglas blocks 4” x 12” that I had laying around, ¼“ would suffice. You will have to drill it to receive the thick ends of the telescoping tubes, and CA them in place. Make sure they are perpendicular on both axis! I will be scoring the gun arcs onto the plastic as soon as I work them out.





    Back in the zeppelin works, you will need to form the nacelles or gondolas. Here I used 3/8” x ½” bass wood blocks carved to shape, given a few coats of dope, sand and paint. The windows were cut from black electrical tape on a sheet of glass, then moved into place on the nacelles. Panel lines, exhaust pipes, bumpers and ladders were added to each before they were added to the airships. Short bits of carbon fiber rod and aluminum tubing of the appropriate diameters were slipped into holes drilled in each nacelle and mating holes were drilled in the keels of the airships. A drop of CA holds them on.





    Propellers were a challenge. The Vickers had four blade wood props 1” in diameter. I cheated here and swiped them from a 1/144 Dornier DoX flying boat kit I had not yet finished. Six props were required for the R-23. They were mounted on aluminum tubing of various diameters and attached to each nacelle. The L-11 had only four two bladed props of 1” diameter which I carved from 3/32” square bass wood. All props were painted brown since they were wood on the originals.





    Insignias were made from decals robbed from other models, the numbers were cut from white electrical tape on the L-11 and black tape for the R-23, and stuck onto the models in their proper locations.





    Both ships had top gun emplacements for three single machine guns. At scale they are only 1/8” long! This took a bit of thought, I used hard 1/16” square balsa, carving half the length round and the rear part rectangular. A quick wash of gun metal paint and they looked great! Both ships also had rear gunners as well, so ditto there. Side guns were left off; they could use any window for hand held guns on the keel and on the nacelles. Each ship has its own specs on number of guns and placements, have fun here.







    What’s left? Well the R-23 carried and Sopwith Camel between the front and middle nacelle locations. I used a tiny pair of rare earth magnets, one on the keel and one on the top wing of the Camel. A drop of CA glue, and presto! A removable escort fighter!



    Oh yes on the L-11 there are the side prop mounts. They need to be fabricated from thin plastic sheet or plywood, attached to the appropriate longeron and drive shafts from the rear nacelle installed to connect the prop shafts to the propeller gear boxes. I used a bunch of 1/16” aluminum tubes with small copper wires to join them all together. Another quick wash of paint and your off!





    They are quite a handsome pair and have yet to be weathered and final detailed. I did make a tiny Royal Naval flag and attached it to the R-23 as in the original pictures. Other surface details include the hydrogen dump scoops on the R-23. They were made from 1/8” diameter googly eyes from the craft store. Carefully cut the eye in half and dig out the eyeball and you have two small half round scoops! Stick them to a strip of masking tape, spray with silver enamel and you have your scoops! You will need 14 of them by the way.





    The surface details you can add are endless. I will likely weather mine, airbrush the seams on the canvas, add a few more bracing wires and call it a day, the missions are waiting! Next will be a transport box, lined with foam to protect the beasties, figure out a set of rules of engagement and get this war going! Have fun building yours! I have about 20 hours in mine total with a price tag for both of around $25-however I do have a huge supply of materials and bits to draw from!
    And here a few more Pics!











    Let me know if you endeavor to enter this realm of insanity and if you have any questions, comments or thoughts. Now onto that squadron of Staakens!


    -David

  2. #2

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    Well for a first post that is sure going to take a bit of beating David. The Oberst is putting together one for Origins even as we converse. I'm sure he will be interested in your construction methods.
    Why not go to the Report for duty forum and introduce yourself to the rest of the pilots. That will draw their attention to this thread.
    rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  3. #3

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    Wowzers, now that is truely impressive,
    You could be called upon to do do some builds on commission, The `skytrex zep` is about £100 !
    I was thinking of drawing up some balloons and `Zeps` as simple to build card models.
    perhaps backing up the card with 2mm wallfoam (that i use for my free flight indoor models, as with my Martinsyde Elephant Avatar)
    Maybe even making them slot together for storage...
    This is really inspiring...awesome work
    Batesyboy

  4. #4

    Thumbs up

    Speachless - keyboardless - whatever!

    Whow! That's all I can say right now...

  5. #5

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    They are really inspiring. And really nice.
    Thanks for the how to guide.

  6. #6

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    Looks great, I want a zeppelin. :-)

  7. #7

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    Fantastic work! I'd be interested to hear how well they play in the game.

  8. #8

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    Very impressive. Very.

  9. #9

    Thumbs up

    David!

    Very nice builds! I will look forward to your future projects!


    rich

  10. #10

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    Wow! I put pencil to paper and figured out a 1/144th L33 would be 53.5 inches long and just over 6 inches in diameter. I figured that would not fit very well in my compact car. I agree with your decision to reduce size for several reasons one the gun emplacements could not cover the fire arcs due to the range stick.
    Fantastic effort!

  11. #11

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    Amazing first post... I'll take six of each please... 2 in hot pink...

    J/K of course... They look fantastic!
    Ken Head - "The Cowman"
    “You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it.” Robin Williams

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    Fantastic work. Thanks for a great how to.
    Linz

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    Really nice! I want one!

  14. #14

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    Wow ...Fantastic builds. I want one of each mounted to a ceiling fan in my living room ( geared down to revolve slowly of course)

  15. #15

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    VERY impressive! Wow!

    /Niclas

  16. #16

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    Kudos, David. Those are some seriously impressive builds!

  17. #17

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    I can say even more : VERY..VERy...impressive

  18. #18

    Hunter's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
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    You are totally AWESOME!!!!!

    I am very proud to tell you all that Dave is one of the original pilots of Los Estrellas Distoras and we've been anxiously awaiting these zepps delivery! Next up rule development and...PLAY TESTING!

  19. #19

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    I suppose that looks O.K......................................................Nah, just kidding, that's nothing short of fantastic

  21. #21

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    Impressive. I'm surprised how quickly you were able to knock 'em out. But then, I know I'm slow compared to many modelers.

  22. #22

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    Now THAT is impressive! I really love the step-by-step documentation you made while assembling each airship. Since you have gone through the trouble of crafting such a magnificent vehicle like the LZ41 L-11, I expect you will be in need of a game card to go along with it. As fate would have it, you are in luck!



    Here is a direct link to the L-11 control panel I designed for Oberst Hajj to use at Origins 2011: http://www.wingsofwar.org/wowauser/Z...all%20card.tif (expect a fully detailed thread to follow when I get home from work — just posting on my phone for now). I also made a separate management card for tracking damage and burning gas cells.

    Lugz

  23. #23

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    Really nice looking card that!

    One thing's for certain - I'll give that monster a wide berth with my Camel! All those guns...

  24. #24

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    This was a bit of a rush job for Keith, so it's still just a "beta" version. Even when you labor over a project, and think you crossed all your "t"s, there are still little mistakes you notice. For instance, the #9 crew position was mislabeled on the token slot as #5. It also appears I neglected to add the blue dots for the airship's "center" and the rear blue dot to check for tailing (although it's SOOO big how could anyone fail to 'find' it?)


  25. #25

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    Not three bad for a rush job. I wish I could produce rush jobs on photoshop as good as that one Keegan.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  26. #26

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    Wow! This looks awesome, I will be exploring it in depth over the weekend! I just finished the travel hanger for the Zeppies, looks like period hanger and holds them both, now I get them into action!

    Cheers! Dave (clipper1801)

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Wow! This looks awesome, I will be exploring it in depth over the weekend! I just finished the travel hanger for the Zeppies, looks like period hanger and holds them both, now I get them into action!

    Cheers! Dave (clipper1801)
    Hey Dave, I'm glad you like the card. I will be posting an official: "Look what I made!" thread tomorrow with pictures and details about the history and crew of the L-11, but for now I have a few questions for you:

    • Does the book you have outline the technical armaments carried by LZ41's (or specifically L-11 for that matter)?

    • Are there any recommendations you would make regarding the card as it stands now?


    I ask because the beta version you see linked above was cobbled together from a few different places. Keith (Oberst Hajj) sent me an email detailing the number of guns he wanted (13), and their placement — including info like gas cells (17), number of engines (2), damage value (100), etc. Initially, this was in respect to his need for a Type-P Zeppelin, but he wasn't as specific about the ship model number. He pointed me to photos of the Airalex zepp, which was a LZ41 (L-11).

    I lept at the opportunity to base the card on a specific airship, and the more information I found about the crew of the L-11, the more I wanted to use it as the basis for the card design. Some of my research turned up flight history of the craft and it's crew, the many design schemes used for the hull, the exact number of gas cells, engines, and so forth. Based on this new information, I wrote to Keith and explained that I wanted to change a number of his requested stats to their historic values. I decreased the number of cells to 16, increased the engine count to 4, but kept the number of guns he same (see below for why). The historic specs listed a max operating crew of 18, but that 16 was typically used when actively deployed for raids to allow more room for bombs/ammo/etc. The way the card breaks down right now is: 1 pilot, 2 pilot/mechanics, 13 gunners; 16 slots total. Now I know in real life that there were crewman aboard who's occupation wouldn't equate to a role in Wings of War: sailmaker for the gas cells/hull, radioman, elevator ops, etc. The crew roles on the card are an attempt to balance the number of actual crew against their potential roles in Wings of War. If the number of MGs was less than 13, then perhaps I can offset them somehow.

    The only thing I was never sure about was the right number of guns and their placement. Some of the photos I've seen show the top MG nest on the top of the hull armed with 3-4 guns, with one on the tail. I never learned how many were used per gondola, so I went with Keith's number (4 total per gondola; 2 per side left/right). The card design is still saved as a photoshop file, and I can re-arrange everything as needed.

    I consider this a work in progress, as no one has made a Zeppelin card as far as I know. I would like to make it as perfect as I can, balancing "fun" gameplay with historical accuracy. Your input, and airship fanaticism, are much appreciated

    Lugz


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This a tiny sneak peek of what I mean about the gas cell management.
    Last edited by Lugburz; 06-23-2011 at 13:32.

  28. #28

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    Stunning. Truely stunning.

  29. #29

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    Dave: I've re-adjusted the scale of the tail fins and the gondolas to bring them more in line with their values as they appear in the illustrations featured in your book.

  30. #30

    Hunter's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
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    Keegan, that's great. That card is way cool. I saw Dave last night and he could not stop talking about your card. Now today, after seeing it, I can see why! Very good work. We'll test it out.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lugburz View Post
    Hey Dave, I'm glad you like the card. I will be posting an official: "Look what I made!" thread tomorrow with pictures and details about the history and crew of the L-11, but for now I have a few questions for you:

    >>Thanks for the update, the card is awesome! My son and I both think the 100 health points might be daunting, and could be more playable if it was around 80, unless you use the rocket deck as well.
    [/I]

    • Does the book you have outline the technical armaments carried by LZ41's (or specifically L-11 for that matter)?

    >>My documentation is light on armaments but high on technical aspects. The L-11 is of the P Zep family which was an amazingly open and adaptable airframe used from 1915-1916 when it was superceeded by the R class. They began as 2 engine designs and had allowance which was needed as the design evolved to up to 8 engines! Mine is designed around the 6 engine stage, with a crew of 20 which as you discovered had some strange duties. Speed was 101 km/hr or around 63 m/h.

    >>I have struggled to find more than 8 fixed gun placements due to the volume the dual engines occupied in the nacelles. One gun per side per nacelle for the lower defensive armaments, with a single rear gun and 2-3 on the top front station. One reference did mention flexible gun mounting rails on most opening window frames, but the main defense was the 3,993 meter altitude!

    • Are there any recommendations you would make regarding the card as it stands now?


    >>Just the health factor might be lowered to something just a bit better than the Staaken which carried 6 guns but only a crew of 7. Fun to factor in the cells, I had not thought about that. I do like what you have done!

    I ask because the beta version you see linked above was cobbled together from a few different places. Keith (Oberst Hajj) sent me an email detailing the number of guns he wanted (13), and their placement — including info like gas cells (17), number of engines (2), damage value (100), etc. Initially, this was in respect to his need for a Type-P Zeppelin, but he wasn't as specific about the ship model number. He pointed me to photos of the Airalex zepp, which was a LZ41 (L-11).

    I lept at the opportunity to base the card on a specific airship, and the more information I found about the crew of the L-11, the more I wanted to use it as the basis for the card design. Some of my research turned up flight history of the craft and it's crew, the many design schemes used for the hull, the exact number of gas cells, engines, and so forth. Based on this new information, I wrote to Keith and explained that I wanted to change a number of his requested stats to their historic values. I decreased the number of cells to 16, increased the engine count to 4, but kept the number of guns he same (see below for why). The historic specs listed a max operating crew of 18, but that 16 was typically used when actively deployed for raids to allow more room for bombs/ammo/etc. The way the card breaks down right now is: 1 pilot, 2 pilot/mechanics, 13 gunners; 16 slots total. Now I know in real life that there were crewman aboard who's occupation wouldn't equate to a role in Wings of War: sailmaker for the gas cells/hull, radioman, elevator ops, etc. The crew roles on the card are an attempt to balance the number of actual crew against their potential roles in Wings of War. If the number of MGs was less than 13, then perhaps I can offset them somehow.

    >>I think your card would be a great generic Zep card since they were advanced by each year of the war one might have dates of engagement card factors-do many games get set in different years? I know the Flames of War guys have it down to months of the war figured into their equipment armaments.


    >>The British airships were rarely as armed as the Germans since they were mostly used for coastal patrols and such. Apparently they did not want to risk them in combat : ) If one were to influence you to make a card for the R-23 its stats would be: speed 92 km/h, 9 guns, one Sopwith Camel (cool), 6 engines, crew of 18, altitude of 3,200 m. Can you count the Sopwith guns?


    The only thing I was never sure about was the right number of guns and their placement. Some of the photos I've seen show the top MG nest on the top of the hull armed with 3-4 guns, with one on the tail. I never learned how many were used per gondola, so I went with Keith's number (4 total per gondola; 2 per side left/right). The card design is still saved as a photoshop file, and I can re-arrange everything as needed.

    >>The gondola/nacelles were very cramped and filled with all kinds of equipment, not much room for guns-the engines had special venting/piping to keep sparks from floating up into the envelope for safety reasons-another interesting self-destruct possibility that did claim a few airships!

    I consider this a work in progress, as no one has made a Zeppelin card as far as I know. I would like to make it as perfect as I can, balancing "fun" gameplay with historical accuracy. Your input, and airship fanaticism, are much appreciated

    >>Thanks for your efforts, they will keep us flying! Dave

    Lugz


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This a tiny sneak peek of what I mean about the gas cell management.

  32. #32

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    The hanger is finished, will post soon! I did just discover a coastal Zeppelin with a 20mm cannon in the front nacelle!!! Wowsers!
    Dave

  33. #33

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    Dave: Thank you for your feedback

    Based on what you said, I think that I will drop the overall number of guns down to nine: 4 on the exterior hull (top), 2 in the forward nacelle, 2 in the rear nacelle, and one tail gunner. It's difficult to settle on an exact number since each ship continued to be modified and changed over the course of it's life, but I think 9 MGs lands happily between Keith's desire for maximum firepower and maintaining historical accuracy. Were it not for the one reference I saw to a possible 4 gun mount on the rooftop MG nest, I'd drop it down in line with your count of 8.

    As for this particular outfitting for the L-11, I'm going with their early 4 engine arrangement: 4x Maybach C-X engines; 210HP (1 @ front nacelle, 3 @ the rear). The nice thing about keeping my photoshop layers tidy, bundled up into categorized folders, is that editing stuff that has already been made is a snap. I like your idea of lowering the damage strength to around 80, but I suppose it will be interesting to hear back from the crew at Origins to determine how daunting it was for the scout planes to bring it down @ 100 health. Thanks for your feedback Dave, it's been invaluable. Expect a detailed thread by me later this morning about the cards and the material I scrounged up about the L-11.

    Cheers,
    Lugz

  34. #34

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    According to "Zeppelin" by Ray Remel The type "P"s had 3 guns top front, 1 top rear and 2 in each gondola.

    Christoph

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoff View Post
    According to "Zeppelin" by Ray Remel The type "P"s had 3 guns top front, 1 top rear and 2 in each gondola.

    Christoph
    Thanks for the info Christoph! I suspect I misjudged the number of guns on top of the hull; this brings the count back down to 8 total. Much obliged

    Lugz

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamus View Post
    Kudos, David. Those are some seriously impressive builds!
    great work

  37. #37

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    QUICK QUESTION FOR THE COMMUNITY: I'm sitting in front of the zeppelin card now, and I've made the adjustments suggested by Dave and Christoph; total gun count has been reduced to 8 (see Christoph's count and placement above). What I'm wondering is this:

    Should I increase the number of pilots or pilot/mechanics?
    Aside from that, the remaining crew positions are as follows: 1 - Pilot (Kapitän zur See), 2 - Pilot/Mechanics. The captain is located in the front nacelle, and the remaining pilot/mechanics are located one per nacelle (with the first P/M able to travel between nacelles for repairs. I've fashioned this after the pilot/mechanic role for the Zeppelin Staaken, as shown in the rules for "Flight of The Giants" (page 13).

    The logic was that the primary pilot (captain) would only ever occupy the first nacelle where the primary flight controls are located. Any repairs to the front nacelle engine would be left to the first pilot/mechanic, as there is only one engine/prop at that location. The second nacelle would hold the second pilot/mechanic; he would be responsible for the other 3 engines/props — with the promise that the first pilot/mechanic could spend a turn traveling from his location in the forward nacelle to the aft nacelle if need be.

    Originally, I had 16 crew positions on the card (reflecting the 16 man skeleton crew that could feasibly run a zeppelin for raiding purposes). Now that I have removed 4 of the gun positions, this leaves 4 slots up for grabs. I could potentially keep the 1 pilot & 2 pilot/mechanics, while adding auxiliary roles that have not yet been invented for Wings of War. Perhaps I could provide crew positions on the SECOND management card (where the gas cells are located; see this for what I mean). I'm already providing space on that second sheet for tracking each of the 4 engines — I could feasibly place a mechanic role there to reflect the "sail-maker" crewman that flew on zeppelins to repair the gas cells.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Current Roster
    Top Hull: 3 Machine Gunners (foreward); 1 Machine Gunner (tail)
    Forward Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 1 Pilot; 1 Pilot/Mechanic (capable of moving between nacelles, once per turn)
    Aft Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 1 Pilot/Mechanic (static — does not move between nacelles)

    -----

    Proposed Roster
    Top Hull: 3 Machine Gunners (foreward); 1 Machine Gunner (tail)
    Forward Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 1 Pilot; 2 Pilot/Mechanics (only 1 capable of moving between nacelles, once per turn)
    Aft Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 3 Pilot/Mechanics (static — does not move between nacelles)
    Internal: 2 Mechanics (unable to fulfill pilot role — must be used only to repair gas cells)

    ------------------------------------------------------

    The reason for Pilot/Mechanics (instead of just Mechanics), is that they probably know enough about the inner-workings of the Zeppelin, especially the engines, to sustain flight even if the captain is wounded/incapacitated/killed. See the rules on page 10 of "Flight of The Giants" in respect to multifacted pilots and their roles:

    Pilots are wounded with no effect to their maneuvering abilities the first time that they are hit and are incapacitated the second time that they are hit. A pilot will have one casualty marker placed on his role circle the first time he is hit and a second casualty marker placed on his role circle the second time he is hit, which causes him to become incapacitated. However, when a pilot with a machine gun suffers his first hit, his machine gun is silenced (even though his maneuvering ability is unaffected). A plane with all its pilots incapacitated is shot down.
    I plan to augment these rules slight so as to read: "However, when a pilot with a machine gun/MECHANIC'S SKILL suffers his first hit, his machine gun/ABILITY TO REPAIR is silenced (even though his maneuvering ability is unaffected)." The "plain Mechanics" listed for Internal repairs to the gas cells would remain static, unable to move to either nacelle, confined to the internal bits of the ship without the ability to pilot — only repair damaged cells.
    Last edited by Lugburz; 06-24-2011 at 07:45. Reason: 10:33 EST - updated number of crewman in aft nacelle

  38. #38

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    Perhaps if I run with the proposed changes, I will make it so that only 1 of the rear pilot/mechanics can move between nacelles per turn, instead of it being one of the guys at the front doing the running around. As it stands, there are 5 crewman per nacelle (which seems reasonable given what I've read).

  39. #39

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    David, I stand in awe, a fine bit of work.
    Look forward to hearing some action reports.
    Now do I really need a Zep Yes
    Will the wife let me, No.
    Don

  40. #40

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    Sounds good reasoning to me. I would have probably gone with a co pilot, but for playability, your compromise seems eminently sensible to me. Run with it.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  41. #41

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    Lugz, Greetings!
    I love the effort and the results! Had no idea building these guys would bring up so much interest. As I ponder the ability of the crew to move throughout the ship, which would be difficult under attack, I would likely have a second gunner at the tail to assist and replace the main gunner-its a long way back to the rear nacelle for help if injured-is something like that possible under WoW rules?
    Clipper1801 (Dave)

  42. #42

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    Don, thanks for the nice note, I am pondering a way to mass produce the beasties if there were enough interest and they get well play tested. I used to do some large vacuum forming in a previous life . . . what would a viable price be?
    Clipper1801 (Dave Haught)

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Lugz, Greetings!
    I love the effort and the results! Had no idea building these guys would bring up so much interest. As I ponder the ability of the crew to move throughout the ship, which would be difficult under attack, I would likely have a second gunner at the tail to assist and replace the main gunner-its a long way back to the rear nacelle for help if injured-is something like that possible under WoW rules?
    Clipper1801 (Dave)
    If you check out the rules for the Zeppelin Staaken (pg 13), featured in "Flight of The Giants", you can see that the game designers have tried to account for crew members moving between assignments/positions. In the case of the Zeppelin Staaken, they show how one crewman can occupy one of two locations: Forward Engine Mechanic OR Rear Gunner. The rules as provided in this section are as follows:

    This optional rule gives the crew of the Zeppelin Staaken R. VI the ability to possibly repair the plane’s engines if they become damaged. The Zeppelin Staaken R.VI has two mechanic/gunners who can try to repair the engines if the engines become damaged.

    These mechanic/gunners start each game using the machine guns located on the rear of the upper wing (positions 2 and 5 on the airplane management card), and if an engine is hit, the mechanic/gunner can switch positions to try to repair it.

    .......................(bunch of other stuff mentioned).......................

    After each movement phase, before starting to resolve any fire, the owner of the plane can declare that a mechanic/gunner is switching positions. Take the crew movement token and put it on the wing (left or right side, depending on which engine is damaged) on the airplane management card. The moving mechanic/gunner cannot fire any machine gun at this time.

    After each movement phase, the owner can decide that the mechanic/gunner reaches one of his two possible positions: either at the engines (place the crew movement token on the role circle for the position identifi ed by the number inside the red circle) or the machine gun (place the crew movement token on the role
    circle for the position identifi ed with the number inside the green circle). If the mechanic/gunner spends a whole turn at the engines, he can try to repair damage to one of them. At the end of the turn, after any fi re is resolved, draw a “B” damage card. If the result is “0” or an explosion, the damage is permanent and cannot be repaired and you can flip the engine damage token facedown to point it out; if the result is “1” or more, the damage is repaired. If the damage is repaired, you can remove one engine damage token. Each mechanic/gunner can try to repair damage on his own side (left or right) only. He can try only once for each engine damage, and for no more than one damage each turn.
    After looking at the card further, I think I will make one of the Pilot/Mechanics in the rear nacelle into a "plain Mechanic". This means there will be total of FIVE crew members capable of the "pilot" support role (meaning you would have to kill all 5 before the zeppelin plummets from the sky). Since each pilot can suffer at least ONE wound before being incapacitated (killed), that's quite a lot of injuries a ship must suffer before going down from damage alone. However, I think having 5 instead of 6 is better as it gives the attackers a better chance. Plus, if the zeppelin has between 80-100 damage points (probably the former and not the latter), then there are LOTS of chances for the crew to suffer injuries, not to mention the ship catching fire or losing it's engines. The roster now stands as follows:

    L-11 Roster (version 3)
    Top Hull: 3 Machine Gunners (foreward); 1 Machine Gunner (tail)
    Forward Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 1 Pilot; 2 Pilot/Mechanics (only 1 capable of moving between nacelles, once per turn)
    Aft Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 2 Pilot/Mechanics (static — does not move between nacelles); 1 Mechanic (static — does not move between nacelles)
    Internal: 2 Mechanics (unable to fulfill pilot role — must be used only to repair gas cells)

    -------------------------------


    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Don, thanks for the nice note, I am pondering a way to mass produce the beasties if there were enough interest and they get well play tested. I used to do some large vacuum forming in a previous life . . . what would a viable price be?
    Clipper1801 (Dave Haught)
    You can darn well bet that after all this work on the card mechanics, I would be EXTREMELY keen on acquiring an L-11 Zeppelin *wink wink, nudge nudge*

  44. #44

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    I still plan on making an in-depth thread about the cards, but for now, here are some low quality thumbnails so you can see a small version of the final images (reflecting changes made by Dave and Christoph):




  45. #45

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    Looking very good. I can see that I'm going to have to start saving my pennies again.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  46. #46

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    Just a quick note for now as I try to catch up on things after Origins... with only 8 guns the Zeps will not be very playable in Wings of War. As my Zep was flown, there was a "dead zone" about the middle of the thing that planes could just do Immelmanns all day with out taking any damage at all. Also, with these being all B damage, shooting down planes is kind of rare.

    In all three games, the Zep was shot down by doing 100 points of structural damage (I had a gas bag system as well I'll talk about later in a Zep Rule thread). This happened at about the 80-90 minute mark each game. So, I don't think 100 points is out of the question.

    That's it for now in this thread... I'll try to write up a big thread Tuesday night.

  47. #47

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    perhaps a "fix" is to use the 4 zones on the card and require damage to be done to 3 of the 4 to bring the zep down. Then the attackers would be obliged to attack where there is defensive coverage.

    I have also seem pictures of a spandau gunner leaning out of a "side port" in a zep. I will attempt to track this picture down again
    Once again spectacular job!
    Bear

  48. #48

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    Only one word...SUPERB!

  49. #49

  50. #50

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    Hi Dave,
    I would be very interested, in placing an order. Let me know when you come up with a price..

    Thanks
    Mitch

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