Russian Ram Rules?

[bigk57]

Will there be any special WWII aerial ramming rules for Russian aircraft in the future? Or will the collision rules apply in all cases? I seem to recall that the Russians used this tactic somewhat succesfully at the beginning of the Operation Barbarossa.

[jhary]

I think this rules woud be also good for the so called Ramjäger of the germans.

[Stormkahn]

The Russians called it a Tarran (Sp?) and it's simply a deliberate collision so I'd just use those rules...of course you have to be slightly nutty!!

[bigk57]

Nutty?? True, however if you have study any WWII Russian military history, for its time you can understand why they did these actions. Their gunnery and piloting were inferior at the beginning of WWII when compared to the Germans. Pilots were usable as bullets then. I found the following explaining more on how popular the tactic was on the matter for the Russians:

http://www.historynet.com/interview-...y-stepanov.htm

"About 200 taran attacks were made by Soviets between the beginning of Operation Barbarossa and the middle of 1943, when enough modern aircraft had been produced to make the tactic obsolete (even if Soviet fighter pilots were still trained to perform it). "

[jhary]

Nutty?? True, however if you have study any WWII Russian military history, for its time you can understand why they did these actions. Their gunnery and piloting were inferior at the beginning of WWII when compared to the Germans. Pilots were usable as bullets then. I found the following explaining more on how popular the tactic was on the matter for the Russians:

http://www.historynet.com/interview-...y-stepanov.htm

"About 200 taran attacks were made by Soviets between the beginning of Operation Barbarossa and the middle of 1943, when enough modern aircraft had been produced to make the tactic obsolete (even if Soviet fighter pilots were still trained to perform it). "

to my Knowlege They train it even to day

[csadn]

The Russians called it a Tarran (Sp?) and it's simply a deliberate collision so I'd just use those rules...of course you have to be slightly nutty!! :)

The "taran" ram wasn't a headlong bodyslam -- it involved flying behind the intended target, and as gently as possible sticking one's prop into the target's tail-control surfaces. Done properly, the target lost all control and crashed, while the rammer needed only to throttle back and glide to a landing; the rammer's airplane could then be recovered, the prop replaced, and the pilot and plane sent back to do it again.

Russians are Insane -- not Stupid. ;)

[JackalWSU3]

I know of the ramjaegers, but I've never heard of this! Insane indeed.

[richard m schwab]

When the B-29`s started raiding Japan, the JAF also resorted to ramming attacks. I read an account of one
KI-61 pilot who returned after bringing down a B-29 in a ramming attack. His plane was a write off and put it on public display. Ki-45 Nicks were used for this until they ran out of them!
Here is a great book on the subject!

Rich

http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kami...kaki/index.htm

[Tonx]

Never knew the Russians employed these tactics until I read this thread ... Disabling the control surfaces of enemy aircraft until they could fly no more was a clever way to go about things especially if the enemy was poorly defended.

The German Luftwaffe's ramming tactics were indeed very different and the first recorded victim of a Focke Wulf Fw.190A used in such an attack was a Boeing B-17 with 'Dallas' in the name (can anybody help out here please?) I remember seeing this in the introduction to a documentary all about the Ramjaeger which is still available somewhere on Youtube. The Focke Wulf Fw.190 was the favoured type for these attacks as the propeller was stronger in design compared with the Messerschmitt Bf.109 inflicting more damage on the target upon impact as well as a higher survival chance for the pilot. Following the attack the pilot often bailed out as many aircraft were rendered uncontrollable by the damage.

If the Russians still teach this tactic that will probably explain what brought those two MiG 29As together at the RIAT (RAF Fairford) in 1993! I witnessed that collision for real with my Father: Somehow both pilots survived and the only thing which was hit by debris on the ground was a parked Belgian Air Force Lockheed C-130H Hercules.

[Nightbomber]

Never knew the Russians employed these tactics until I read this thread ... Disabling the control surfaces of enemy aircraft until they could fly no more was a clever way to go about things especially if the enemy was poorly defended.

If the Russians still teach this tactic that will probably explain what brought those two MiG 29As together at the RIAT (RAF Fairford) in 1993! I witnessed that collision for real with my Father: Somehow both pilots survived and the only thing which was hit by debris on the ground was a parked Belgian Air Force Lockheed C-130H Hercules.

In fact they used that tactics at least several times over the EF during WWII.

As to the thread: such house rule can be invented somehow. As a X-Wing player I can tell you there is a special big Imperial ship in that game called Decimator that could employ such tactics against enemy vessels. It is an official rule. And the ship looks absolutely like one specially designed for that purpose!

Here you can see the Decimator among scums in Headhunters during one of my games.

[Tonx]

Importing Ram Rules from X-Wing ... Sounds like a cool idea. The only thing we lack playing WW2 / WGS is anything other than Yak-1s and the Kuznetsov Hawker Hurricane being available for such rules to be applied to!

I don't think that the Hawker Hurricane would be able to withstand such damage effectively due to it's structural design. Or propeller design. I am of course talking of Official Wings of War / Wings of Glory WW2 or WGS only and not of anything like Shapeways and what they produce. The early WW2 Polikarpov designs of aircraft strike me as the best rammers: With huge engines and small propellers the effect of these on enemy aircraft flight control surfaces would have been like a lawn mower had taken to them. Only problem is gliding distance when recovering to base afterwards because of their design would have not been all that plentiful ...

[Naharaht]

When the RFC planes first flew over to France in 1914 the pilots were given the order,"If you see a Zeppelin, ram it!".

Sergeant Ray Holmes flying a Hurricane in the Battle of Britain rammed a Dornier bomber and cut off its tail with his wing. His guns had failed and the bomber was heading for Buckingham Palace. He later flew a Hurricane in Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Holmes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpoo...00/8997024.stm

[flash]

FO Percy Burton did a similar thing with a Me110 over Hailsham - neither he or the Me crew survived the encounter.
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...t=percy+burton

[Tonx]

When the RFC planes first flew over to France in 1914 the pilots were given the order,"If you see a Zeppelin, ram it!"

Quite a short-sighted order as for the RFC pilots the end result would be both a fiery and an unpleasant one. However for the Zeppelin with an outer skin so statically charged to be hit by an aircraft would be more explosive than structurally disastrous the chances of survival were also zilch! Bear in mind the Zeppelin being full of hydrogen so even if it was of a compartmented design (like the Hindenburg) precious little was there to save it from an explosion. Whereas a compartmented Zeppelin could survive structural damage / hydrogen leak affecting one section of it only but I am not sure if this feature was incorporated into the design of Zeppelins by the outbreak of WW1.

[Naharaht]

I am sure that the people giving the order to ram a Zeppelin knew the cost of carrying it out but they felt that it was worth it to destroy a Zeppelin. Most of the early warplanes were unarmed and the crew had no parachutes. There seems to have been a different attitude then about potentially ordering men to their deaths.

[richard m schwab]

Since this will come up in three weeks during our East front games at Guns of August, here are my two cents. Collisions happen when two bases overlap, each draws a "c" chip if i recall. A player who intentionally rams should draw a "d" each. An addition would be the requirement for a fast move during the ram attack!

Rich