Ace Abilities
Just reading through a rather good book atm and it reminded of something I've come across a couple of times so far.
All round survival rates and competence improved when a pilot got their 1st kill, Mölders went out of his way to get the pilot his 1st and iirc somebody else in WW1 (Boelcke?) had the same policy.
Perhaps the 1st kill should lead to the pilot gaining an ability, maybe not a free choice but something?
Just a thought,
cheers,
Dave.
Interesting idea. In a campaign were pilots get skills based on experience and not straight up number of kills (as in KotA V2), the first kill could be worth more XP points then other kills.
Basically yes, the 1st kill is worth more. Not knowing what cunning plan you have for KoTA I'd just let them pick one of the "lesser" 3-4 abilities from the rules. They'd be a nice boost and would actually mean they get picked up.
just something to think about.
cheers,
Dave.
I'm with Dave on this Col. I know what his first one will be.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
So you think just giving them the pick of the bottom 3 (for example) would be better then giving them, say, 10 points instead of 5 for that first kill?
Not sure I understand the system Col. If we're talking about earning XP for missions/kills ETC and spending them on buying abilities of various values then the 1st kill should give you enough to buy one of the cheapest few on the list and hence a boost to earning further xp to buy more.
You're right Rob I'll be getting dedicated ground crew ASAP but I'd also say that's to expensive to be an early buy.
Yes I like the idea of giving a low level skill as an incentive after the first kill.
It is incredible how long it took even some of the great Aces to get that first blooding, but after that, wham bang.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Inversley you could impose a penalty for "green" pilots that they loose...
That's cruel even by my standards Dave.Originally Posted by Stormkahn
Kyte.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
How so? I occurs to me that in both wars various sides threw pretty green pilots into the fray. BoB replacements had as little at 20 hours, Kamakaze pilots even less.
What vexes me is a can't currently think of a suitable penalty...
I was thinking that I may want the little darlings to come back and play again Dave, not get put off in there first game. It's all very well for grizzled old veterans like us, but these new pilots are tender plants. i won't let them go near the lines on a first flight.
Kyte.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Like your thinking Dave, would be a big boost to their morale to bag their first kite. Perhaps if they get more than one in the bag on that mission they could have a better/bigger choice of ace skills to reflect their prowess?
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
A couple of things to keep in mind here guys.
If this rule is going to be used in a closed group where all the players already know how to play and are fairly good players, it really does not matter much. The reason I say this is that good players are going to get kills pretty quick anyways. So, giving a bonus to the first kill for everyone is going to balance out pretty quick.
If it is in an open gaming group where new players will be joining or the experience level of the players vary greatly, penalizing the new guys with a "green pilot" rule is only going to turn people off to the game. For the most part they are already going to be at a disadvantage to the vet players, and then you slap them with a further penalizing rule... not so fun for them. This get's compounded even more if the vet player's pilot get's his first kill (most likely early on) and gets an Ace Skill right away. At that point you are holding the new guys back and advancing the older guys.
I think for KotA I like just giving more Pilot Points for the first kill. It is possible for a pilot to be in the negative on PP's, so just giving them a skill does not seem fitting, but if we give them a bunch of points, it would go a long way to get them out of the dog house (it fits in role play wise as well). I also think it keeps the vets in check a little better then possibly giving them a Skill very early on to run away from the newer guys with. If it is just extra points, it is possible that they could have a string of mediocre games and the new guys could still hang with them.
Just my thoughts of course.
I agree with all of that, I'd not considered newbies because I assumed this would be part of a campaign/regular group which, for me, is the only place ace abilities can really function. Lets face it we'd probably not be using most of the rules like altitude either
For my part I like your thoughts Col, carry on that man.
I only use ace skills in the campaign as well, but we get a lot of first time players when I run KotA around here. In fact, out of the 9 players I have this time around, 3 of them are "new" to the game. Last time I had about 6 out of 14 players new to the game.
I can see where you are coming from with this Col. It may very well be a sensible compromise to take. it has a feel good factor without unballancing the game mechanism.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
I was wondering about this and trying to reach a mutually beneficial plan to make this more realistic. However, I did not want to 'punish' newbies ( I'm trying to expand my flight !) but want the more experienced players to 'be more experienced' as in actual combat. Giving more points to pilots first kill is such a simple solution...it's brilliant! Now I get it, that's why you're the Colonel and I'm still wearing training wings.A couple of things to keep in mind here guys.
If this rule is going to be used in a closed group where all the players already know how to play and are fairly good players, it really does not matter much. The reason I say this is that good players are going to get kills pretty quick anyways. So, giving a bonus to the first kill for everyone is going to balance out pretty quick.
If it is in an open gaming group where new players will be joining or the experience level of the players vary greatly, penalizing the new guys with a "green pilot" rule is only going to turn people off to the game. For the most part they are already going to be at a disadvantage to the vet players, and then you slap them with a further penalizing rule... not so fun for them. This get's compounded even more if the vet player's pilot get's his first kill (most likely early on) and gets an Ace Skill right away. At that point you are holding the new guys back and advancing the older guys.
I think for KotA I like just giving more Pilot Points for the first kill. It is possible for a pilot to be in the negative on PP's, so just giving them a skill does not seem fitting, but if we give them a bunch of points, it would go a long way to get them out of the dog house (it fits in role play wise as well
Just my thoughts of course.
Paraphrasing a little but;
Herbert K. Weiss ; Systems Analysis Problems of Limited War - 90% of pilots have a 50:50 chance of surviving the 1st encounter, after 5 encounters their survival chances raise 20 fold. This was consistent for the stats from WW1 to Korea that he studied.
He also went on to say that 5% of pilots are responisble for 40% of those casualties inflicted...
Interesting numbers there Dave.
Just throwing another idea out there to get shot at...
Targeted Fire I (Active); When the pilot fires he may state that any one special damage counts as another E.G. Pilot hits now count as Engine hits instead.
Targeted Fire II (Active); When the pilot fires he may state that any two special damages counts as another E.G. Pilot and Rudder hits now count as Engine hits instead.
probably only every other turn too perhaps?
Might have some merit. My biggest concern is going to be 99* of the pilots out there will change any special damage into fire. Also, half of the special damages in the game are supposed to be kept secret. This Ace skill will circumvention that.
I like that one, but would restrict it to the location special damages (Pilot, Engine and Rudder). You can't aim for Smoke and Flame. Sure all those damages are kept secret, so everyone will have to be more honest - but secret damage requires honesty already, doesn't it?
I agree to restricting it to the "location" type damages. Yes to the honesty part, but, I don't think that is the issue here. While a dishonest player might not play that he has rudder jam when he actually does, with this rule if the Ace gave him rudder jam, everyone would instantly know that he had it. Same with engine damaged.
Here are the issues I can see with this rule for each special damage, even with the "location" restriction added in:
Engine Damaged: The Ace can take say a rudder jammed which normally lasts for only 1 turn and change it to a damage type that lasts all game. Now that all the enemy knows he has engine damage, they more likely to attack that player as they know they can pounce and get away. They can still do this in the normal rules, but they have to figure out he has engine damage first... not some thing they always do, or it takes time for them to figure it out, and give the pilot a chance to get out of harms way first.
Rudder Jam: Not as likely to happen, but an Ace could give this damage out to run a player off the table edge, into another plane or even into flak.
Crew Wounded: I see this as an assassination skill. All I need to do is keep shooting the same plane until I get any of the location special damages twice. In a single A damage deck, that's 7 cards in 35... not to bad of odds. If you are playing a scenario where you have to have the observer or bomber, it gets even worse.
I personally feel the possibility to cheese this skill is high.
I'd still keep it secret. Just because the pilot with the skill said "rudder hits are engine hits" doesn't mean the targeted player has to tell him he got a rudder hit.
There are a lot more rudder hit cards in the damage decks than the other, more serious, damages. You may want make the ace specify left rudder or right rudder hits.
Umm, I was reading the rule as any special damage hits the ace got to change... not just if you got A change it to B.
I'm pretty sure he meant just one specifically selected special damage changes.
Good points all round.
My thinking was that whilst there's a lot of random firing actually many shots are at specific targets - Engine, Fuel or Pilot usually.
As the rules stand you hit random targets so a way of concentrating hits would be to sacrifice one kind of special for another, so for example your pilot hits would be engine hits instead thus increasing the engine hits but loosing the chance to hit the pilot. I hope that's a little clearer.
The Col is right about balance I think, certainly the off the cuff rule isn't right.
It may work better if they provide very specific swaps to prevent exploitation. So
Targeted Fire I would be sacrifice pilot hits for engine hits.
Targeted Fire II would be Engine for Pilot.
They could also be down graded to be usable only once/sortie or every other turn.
In terms of the fire damage in theory I think that should be OK on the basis you're going for the fuel cells but for game balance perhaps not.
Just as an adendum really but RAF Advice for the BoB was to attack bombers head on and concentrate fire on the crew compartment, the Luftwaffe specifically went after the radiator on the underside of IL-2's
Werner Voss and Rene Fonck were two aces noted for their exceptional marksmanship, Voss was known to target the engines of his opponents, and Fonck targeted the crewmen.
That's O.K. for you WW2 buffs with your stable gun platforms. In WWI. I'm just pleased to be able to hit the plane. I know that some Aces wrote about going for the man or engine, but I wonder just how close they were at the time?
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Pretty good, most of the fighting on the eastern front was <3,000m anyway but the IL-2's took to flying at tree top height to stop the Germans getting underneth because it was considered an easy kill in the radiator
Frankly though for you WW1 guys I don't know why you bother, I spend most of my time wishing I'd brought a trusty shotgun rather than pratt about unjamming guns
cheers,
Dave.
I have to admit, Dave, that in your case a brace of Purdy's might fill the bill better. Never mind you will soon have that dedicated ground crew and become a bullet checker.Pretty good, most of the fighting on the eastern front was <3,000m anyway but the IL-2's took to flying at tree top height to stop the Germans getting underneth because it was considered an easy kill in the radiator
Frankly though for you WW1 guys I don't know why you bother, I spend most of my time wishing I'd brought a trusty shotgun rather than pratt about unjamming guns
cheers,
Dave.Have you noticed that even the Emoticon only has one gun firing.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
I like the extra points for the 1st kill...simple, and it removes the "cheese" factor
The more I ponder this, the more I'm warming up to this first kill bonus. Haven't written anything up yet, but, I'm liking it more.I like the extra points for the 1st kill...simple, and it removes the "cheese" factor
The other thing is, to take into account that some things could be theoretically taught to a rookie before he gets into combat--anyone who fired a lot of unreliable WWI-era ammo could be a candidate for Bullet Checker, for example.
Related tangent: perhaps Ace abilities for killing specific target types shouold be considered too? Like if you smoke X number of the same target type, you might be eligible for a bonus against it, like Cadbury & Leckie between 'em (one together, one each with other crew) torched three Zeps, and Hans Klein, Willy Coppens and Frank Luke were all noted balloon busters, so maybe bag your fifth balloon and you get a save against the "Death Star Rule" or something, or your fifth jumbo bomber and you get an every-three-turns dodge against an MG attack.
Just to throw a couple of ideas for abilities. First is 'Preventive Maintenance' would allow the first Fire special damage to be replaced with Smoke special damage unless the attacker is using incendiary ammo. (A clean engine space and airframe would be less likely to ignite). The second is "Weapon-Smith" would allow the first Weapon Jam special damage to be ignored, and stacks with "Bullet Checker" to allow the first 'Red' Weapon Jam to be ignored. (Multiple systems of two-seaters and bombers are counted separately for 'first' occurrences).
You could restrict them on ammo? On the lines that they weren't proficient in conserving ammo, were very nervous first time in action and just blasted away at everything. They might get lucky and shoot something down, even if it was friendly. That could be another negative trait, firing at any aircraft within 1/2 ruler. Or treating short range as long and stopping them firing at long range because they couldn't hit a barn door.
Neil
See you on the Dark Side......
You`ve got that anyway if you start them out as Rookie`s.
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