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Thread: Simplified Altitude Rules with Climb Rates

  1. #1

    Lightbulb Simplified Altitude Rules with Climb Rates

    This is a continuation of my Simplified Altitude Rules (SARs) with an idea for the much requested rate of climb for different planes.

    The rate of climb used for this system is taken from page 13 of the Wings of War Burning Drachens. Andrea basically divided the planes listed there into four groups based their rate of climb.

    In game terms, I feel that the different climb ratings for planes simulates one plane being able to pull away, out of firing range, from another slower climbing plane. It is easier to represent this in the horizontal axis then in the vertical, even with miniatures. As such, I think it reasonably except-able to have the planes change altitude levels at the same rate, but simply let the fast climbing aircraft cover more horizontal distance while doing so.

    In my SARs I removed the climb counters and rate of climbs and simplified a climb as follows:

    Normal Climb
    2 card maneuver



    This actually plays out quite well. The one draw back was a plane could almost always leave a fight by flight out of the max altitude level of that missions, effectively leaving the gaming table. To help bring this back in line with how the planes actually preformed, I am suggesting the following be applied.

    All aircraft with a climb rating of 5 from page 13 of Burning Drachens continue to play the normal climb maneuver outlined above.

    All aircraft with a climb rating of 4 from page 13 of Burning Drachens replace their standard climb card with the dive card from the G deck (card 2/2 of BD). The climb maneuver for these aircraft would now look like this...



    All aircraft with a climb rating of 3 from page 13 of Burning Drachens replace their standard climb card with the dive card from the J deck (card 2/2 of BD). The climb maneuver for these aircraft would now look like this...



    All aircraft with a climb rating of 2 from page 13 of Burning Drachens replace their standard climb card with the dive card from the H deck (card 2/2 of BD). The climb maneuver for these aircraft would now look like this...



    If played out in a game, a SPAD XIII with a climb rating of 3 would be able to out run a Roland C.II in a climb and escape the "top" table edge. Reversing the roles, the Roland would have a very hard time escaping the SPAD if it tried to climb out. This simple mechanic is amplified by the fact that shooting at a plane one altitude level higher reduces the range by half a ruler. As long as the escapee starts the climb first, they will have a slight advantage, but not one so large that a faster climbing plane could not over come given they try to chase it down.

    One of the things I really like about this system is, once you decide to use it, you do not have to keep track of any charts or counters... the maneuvers are built right into your deck... just like every other maneuver in the base rules!

    I believe this same system could be used to simulate dive rates as well. We would just have to agree on a source for dive rates (not normally listed in aircraft stats) and then swap out the dive cards for dive cards from other decks.

    Edit: We have actually been looking into dropping the required stall after these. That would bring it back inline with the standard rules in that the climb card is a red steep card.

  2. #2

    krolik's Avatar



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    I don't see how this is any easier than the regular rules. You made climbs into a two card maneuver where in the rules they're a one card maneuver.

    I haven't found the altitude rules, as written, to be that hard to use.

    But again, we use total altitude in pegs (i.e. alt 7 = 7 pegs) & have light blue pegs to go along with the clear pegs. We also don't fool around with climb markers, we just write our climb increments on our pilot cards, and erase as necessary.

  3. #3

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    I've found that counting climb counters (not altitude levels) and keeping track of them slow an eight player game down quite a bit. That was my whole reason for trying to simply the altitude rules... less paper work. Once you play one game with these two card maneuvers, they become second nature... just like the Immelmann maneuver. We also do not use the WoW pegs, there is already too much plane "wiggling" in the movement phase, I really don't what to have to pull my plane off it's base, add in or remove a peg, and then put the plane back on. Besides wiggling the plane around a lot more, it takes more time.

    Those are the thoughts from my local group at least.

  4. #4

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    I like your new SARs. Differentiating between the varying climb rates as you have with the different cards for the first maneuver phase is rather ingenious!

    The group I play with are all veterans of other miniature rule sets, and have no difficulties with the WOW altitude rules as written, though we use the Litko altitude dials, vice the chits provided with the game to show the planes altitude in whole numbers. We do however use the counters for each increment taken based on their climb rate. And like the good Col. we do not use the small elevation pegs provided with the miniatures, especially not for displaying the planes altitude.

  5. #5

    krolik's Avatar



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    I actually like the altitude pegs. We usually play with 4 to 8 using up to two planes each, and have had no trouble with altitude slowing the game down.

    Now, players taking a long time to pick their cards is another matter.

    Most of the people that play WoW in my groups are old time grognards too, and haven't had any trouble picking up the altitude rules.

    I think Andrea came up with a simple workable solution to the differing climb rates of the various aircraft.

    As for minor inconsistencies in miniature placement, well we just chalk it up to turbulence.

  6. #6

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    We also use altitude rules as written and the blue tinted altitude pegs. We are going to play WW2 rules tomorrow and I hope to introduce the altitude/fuel control panel Col Hajj has in his game aides to replace the chits for both altitude and fuel.

    Pooh

  7. #7

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    I liked the idea of the simplified altitude rules, and I like the enhancement of the different climb rates as well.

    The one drawback to this is the need for the extra cards-- where do you get them? I keep my planes and the maneuver cards together, so they don't get mixed up. If I understand the above correctly, I'd have to raid the cards from other planes, and leave them grounded with an incomplete deck...

  8. #8

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    I'd have to double check, but I think all of the "extra" card you need can be found in the booster packs. Those are inexpensive and would not leave you with an incomplete deck at that point.

    Since I only play with miniatures, I really don't care that the maneuver decks that only have card planes out have decks missing cards.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    I'd have to double check, but I think all of the "extra" card you need can be found in the booster packs. Those are inexpensive and would not leave you with an incomplete deck at that point.

    Since I only play with miniatures, I really don't care that the maneuver decks that only have card planes out have decks missing cards.
    ok if its only going to cost me the 4 boosters then I might give it ago then....

    Still need more games to see which would be better to play.

    Cheers
    GW

  10. #10

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    I've not had the chance to check the boosters yet, but I can say that I have not bought any of them and I have all of the needed cards. I own all three box sets and the WWI Deluxe Set (which only has the A-D maneuver cards). So, you do not have to buy any of the booster packs, but they might be a cheaper way to get them then buying all the box sets.

  11. #11

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    I got the Famous Aces, Watch your back, and Burning Draken is currently in transit to me.

    So is that enough?

    cheers
    GW

  12. #12

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    You should be set once BD shows up.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    You should be set once BD shows up.
    sweet teaching my brother inlaw this weekend may use him as a test subject show him the standard rules for a couple of games then try out the "Col Hajj. Special" and see which is best will post feed back.

    Cheers
    GW
    Last edited by Greywolf; 11-18-2009 at 02:10.

  14. #14

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    Just re-read a few of the posts.

    I can see why you've done this for Col Hajj. You do have quite large games 6-8 players.

    But for most of us an 6-8 player game is a dream that may never come true. we might get one or two players heavens forbid we may go as high as four. . dreams are free.....

    I think for smaller scale games the rules as they are work. but with larger games that free flow is hindered by the amount of players and planes.
    If you add in the fiddly altitude its head-acheville.

    Will still give both ago and see what works best for us smaller game players.

    Cheers
    GW

  15. #15

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    Yes, at the height of our campaign games, we have up to 8 players on one table... and another 6-8 on a second table. So, around 14 planes flying at a time.

  16. #16

    krolik's Avatar



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    Our group usually has 4 to 8 players with 1 or 2 planes each, and we haven't had trouble with the altitude rules. Getting players to pick their cards in a timely manner, now thats a different story.

  17. #17

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    @Col Hajj.

    I was setting up my maneuver decks to try out your SaR tonight against my wife.

    in the end we have had to with:

    Sopwith Camel/Spad xiii Vs Albatros Dva/Albatros Diii

    due to not having enough cards to change the orignal decks dive cards to the one you reccommended.

    how do I get more G,H,and J decks with out buying another box set.[Hopefully I'll be getting a copy of WWI deluxe box set soon. will that give more of those decks?]

    Also in your example you had a corresponding C deck card are we ment to out them in in stead of the deck we are changing?

    eg, Alabatros Diii is J Deck we change the climb card to G dive card. Do I change the J stall card to C stall card or were you just using the C card as an example? stupid question I know.

    Cheers
    GW

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    how do I get more G,H,and J decks with out buying another box set.[Hopefully I'll be getting a copy of WWI deluxe box set soon. will that give more of those decks?]
    The only way is to buy the corresponding boosters or box sets.

    No, the deluxe box set comes with an A, B, C and D deck.

  19. #19

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    will any of the four expansion packs give me those decks?

    Cheers
    GW

  20. #20

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    The Deluxe set will not give you any of the cards you need. I don't have my cards with me, but you should be able to interchange these cards:

    J= D-K-I
    H= M-B-C

    Just compare them to make sure they have the same length arrows on the dive card.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    The Deluxe set will not give you any of the cards you need. I don't have my cards with me, but you should be able to interchange these cards:

    J= D-K-I
    H= M-B-C

    Just compare them to make sure they have the same length arrows on the dive card.
    sweet as....thx Col Hajj. I guess that was the other question I was going to ask next.

    what about a subtitute for the G card?

    Cheers
    GW

  22. #22

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    I'll have to check that one when I have my cards in front of me.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    I'll have to check that one when I have my cards in front of me.
    E deck is the same as G deck dive card

    looks like I'll be buying some of those expansion packs after all.

    worked out the current decks that I have planes for.

    Got the Rolland Cii, DH4, 3x Albatros Dva's, 1x Albatros Diii, 3x Sopwith Camels all changed over to the SaR card exchange.

    still got 2x Albatros Diii, 3x Spad xiii still to do. that will give me the correct decks for my minis so far. That will change once I get my Fokker Dr1's...

    thx Col Hajj

    Cheers
    GW

  24. #24

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    We've now adopted a new set of altitude rules that slightly changes climb (all planes climb rate of between 1 & 4 pips). We still add and remove the altitude pegs as we go up or down. We like the visual of it. We typically have 4 to 8 players per game.
    The only trouble we have is that people have stolen most of my blue altitude pegs (replacing them with clear ones) and people remembering which way left is.

    Pooh

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    This is a continuation of my Simplified Altitude Rules (SARs) with an idea for the much requested rate of climb for different planes.

    The rate of climb used for this system is taken from page 13 of the Wings of War Burning Drachens. Andrea basically divided the planes listed there into four groups based their rate of climb.

    In game terms, I feel that the different climb ratings for planes simulates one plane being able to pull away, out of firing range, from another slower climbing plane. It is easier to represent this in the horizontal axis then in the vertical, even with miniatures. As such, I think it reasonably except-able to have the planes change altitude levels at the same rate, but simply let the fast climbing aircraft cover more horizontal distance while doing so.
    I just revisted this thread, as I have been thinking about whether or not I should altitude rules for my upcoming games at Historicon. As I look at them again, I think that Hajj's premise is wrong-- in the sense that it is not what I'm looking for.

    I think that the most important part of the altitude rules is that it allows you to use period tactics-- a fighter can outclimb a more sluggish opponent, and then make diving attacks. These rules don't let you do that-- even the slowest of two seaters can keep up with a fighter in a climbing contest-- the fighter can't get above him.

    There are two types of climb rates for aircraft that are relevant to this discussion- fastest and quickest climb.
    The standard WoW rules implement quickest climb-- I'm trying to get height as quickly as possible. This is the type of climb typically used by interceptors-- get to altitude as soon as possible. The different climb rates reresent the different slops that the different planes climb at-- a Dr.1 covers a lot less ground in the horizontal direction while gaining an altiutude level, as compared to a DH-4.

    Hajj's rules model the idea of fastest climb-- I want to climb to altitude while keeping my speed over ground as high as possible. This assumes that everyone is climbing at the same rate-- the same slope. When a more powerful fighter climbs at the same (lesser) slope as a two seater, it will cover a lot more ground-- which Hajj's different length arrows represents pretty well.

    If you wanted to get rid of counters, maybe another way to repreent different climb rates would be in the number of cards used. I wonder if there is a way to structure it so that you have to play all the climb cards in your hand in order to climb a level. A Dr.1 would have two cards, while a DH4 would have four to play. (I realize this idea isn't without flaws-- and needs some more thought.)

    Just some random thoughts......



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