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Thread: Five Pegs and Altitude

  1. #1

    Default Five Pegs and Altitude

    In looking at altitude but realizing that how our group currently plays with the four-peg option and moving drastically away from that is probably not going to happen, using the advanced altitude rules is most likely a direction we would head as we like the simplicity of four pegs, plus we are most likely not enamored with the thought of changing flight stands that would represent the advanced altitude stats. And one cannot use multiple pegs to represent the advanced altitude as the pegs will tumble...broken planes are not a desired outcome.

    However, five pegs are sturdy enough to not worry about tip overs and would provide a little flexibility for altitude bands. Therefore, I went through the exercise and gathered historical data for dozens of planes and determined a five peg rating system. Along the way I also looked at climb rates, but that will be a different post. What I discovered is that several of the game ratings simply did not align with the historical data, as questionable as it could be for planes from the Great War.

    Method - the plane with the lowest altitude was the FarmanH.F.20, coming in at 2,667 meters. The plane with the highest altitude was the Siemens-Schuckert D.III with a height of 8,050 meters. Knowing that I wanted the lowest height to be two pegs, and then balancing the other aircraft I had data for, I came up with these bands:

    One peg – below 2,667 meters
    Two pegs - 2,667 to 3,450 meters
    Three pegs - 3,500 to 5,150 meters
    Four pegs - 5,200 to 7,000 meters
    Five pegs - 7,100 to 8,050 meters

    Maybe not a perfect bandwidth representation, but now I was on to something. I then started comparing the advanced ratings in the game (also using the Wings of Linen site for aircraft not rated in the rules) to balance the historical data. Some aircraft align nicely, while others are a tad out of whack.

    As an example, let’s use the 250 hp D.H.4. Historically its ceiling was 4,900 meters. However, the game’s advanced altitude rating is 15. Using the historical ratings, it should have an advanced altitude of 11 (as compared to other aircraft with the same historical ceiling), and in the five-peg system it would have a max height of three pegs (the 375 hp version would be four pegs).

    Changing the generic four peg system to five pegs, then using the historic data to place parameters does have an impact on early war aircraft. For example, the Albatros C.III would only have a two-peg altitude in the five-peg system. It would not be able to, using the current rules, be able to attempt an over dive to reduce the impact of a fire. I would also venture to state that the current over dive process is overkill as again each peg represents a massive amount of vertical space. I would change the over dive rule to along the lines of the following:

    Over dive One – If a plane has no climb counters it executes the dive, removing a peg and placing the number of climb counters for the type of aircraft being used, minus one. For the straight card that follows, remove all climb counters. Thus, the change is just one total peg, but with climb counters factored in, there is an impact on firing on the diving plane (explained later).

    If the plane does have climb counters, then the dive maneuver removes those, and then the straight card that follows drop one peg.

    Height advantage for firing needs to have a drastic change as well since the vertical space is far, far more than the range of a machine gun. To gain a height advantage both planes need to be at the same number of pegs, but the firing plane would have to have at least one climb counter while the target plane would have none. This makes the vertical space a bit more realistic within the game but reduces the number of times this advantage would appear. And when used with the over dive offering above, one can see that altitude is now a fickler beast.

    I have a climb rates and altitudes file now added here on the forum: https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=2786

  2. #2

    Default

    Another option is to consider colored pegs - say one transparent light-blue peg indicates five regular, one dark blue indicates two light-blue, one green (ground) indicates two dark blue.

    So, in theory, assuming we're starting with a single clear peg as FL 1 (C = Clear, L = Light Blue, D = Dark Blue, G = Green:
    FL's x10 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    0 X (crashed) C CC CCC CCCC L LC LCC LCCC LCCCC
    10 D DC DCC DCCC DCCCC DL DLC DLCC DLCCC DLCCCC
    20 G GC GCC GCCC GCCCC GL GLC GLCC GLCCC GLCCCC
    30 GD GDC GDCC GDCCC GDCCCC GDL GDLC GDLCC GDLCCC GDLCCCC
    40 GG GGC GGCC GGCCC GGCCCC GGL GGLC GGLCC GGLCCC GGLCCCC
    If each peg is a thousand feet, that gets you all the way from ground to 40k (which was hard-pressed for anything before a Featherweight-III B-36J!) with no more than seven stacked pegs.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 02-27-2024 at 17:06.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  3. #3

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    I have used stacked pegs for bombers and had no bother although we do have the advantage of the double peg there. For aircraft attacking airships, a bit of extra height looks better in photographs so I have plastic welded a dozen or so fighter pegs into pairs ant that works for up to eight high with no bother. As for normal games, I also only pack five pegs into the boxes with each aircraft. A blue one to indicate this extra altitude would be useful, as with my failing eyesight I find it harder to read Keith's dials than I used to.
    Thanks for the input chaps.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by predhead View Post
    ..Changing the generic four peg system to five pegs, then using the historic data to place parameters does have an impact on early war aircraft. For example, the Albatros C.III would only have a two-peg altitude in the five-peg system. It would not be able to, using the current rules, be able to attempt an over dive to reduce the impact of a fire...
    The Albatros C.III cannot make an over dive by the rules, anyway. The Y deck has no Immelmann thus it's precluded from that move. Same applies to quite a few other tandems, of course, users of K & H deck too.

    The altitude rules are a bolt on so not surprised that not everything falls into place nicely.
    I would be inclined to nominate a 'hard deck' of X,000ft as the base altitude and play the four pegs of altitude normally above that; if a plane falls below x it's out of the fight/game, though not necessarily destroyed. Would have thought that would be a little more manageable ?

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    Jester, is that you? :P
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Another option is to consider colored pegs - say one transparent light-blue peg indicates five regular, one dark blue indicates two light-blue, one green (ground) indicates two dark blue.

    So, in theory, assuming we're starting with a single clear peg as FL 1 (C = Clear, L = Light Blue, D = Dark Blue, G = Green:
    FL's x10 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    0 X (crashed) C CC CCC CCCC L LC LCC LCCC LCCCC
    10 D DC DCC DCCC DCCCC DL DLC DLCC DLCCC DLCCCC
    20 G GC GCC GCCC GCCCC GL GLC GLCC GLCCC GLCCCC
    30 GD GDC GDCC GDCCC GDCCCC GDL GDLC GDLCC GDLCCC GDLCCCC
    40 GG GGC GGCC GGCCC GGCCCC GGL GGLC GGLCC GGLCCC GGLCCCC
    If each peg is a thousand feet, that gets you all the way from ground to 40k (which was hard-pressed for anything before a Featherweight-III B-36J!) with no more than seven stacked pegs.
    Finding colored pegs has been a bit problematic for me...do you have a source?

  7. #7

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    I thought Litko made 'em many years ago. Failing that lots of clear pegs and model paint...
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The Albatros C.III cannot make an over dive by the rules, anyway. The Y deck has no Immelmann thus it's precluded from that move. Same applies to quite a few other tandems, of course, users of K & H deck too.

    The altitude rules are a bolt on so not surprised that not everything falls into place nicely.
    I would be inclined to nominate a 'hard deck' of X,000ft as the base altitude and play the four pegs of altitude normally above that; if a plane falls below x it's out of the fight/game, though not necessarily destroyed. Would have thought that would be a little more manageable ?
    For an over dive there is no Immelman requirement. It is stall, dive, straight, yes?

    Like the idea of a hard deck as well!

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I thought Litko made 'em many years ago. Failing that lots of clear pegs and model paint...
    You mean I have to WORK at my hobby?

    There was a source for blue pegs, but Ares, in a fit of legality, threatened the maker.
    Last edited by predhead; 02-28-2024 at 05:43.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by predhead View Post
    For an over dive there is no Immelman requirement. It is stall, dive, straight, yes?
    Yes it is, but the RAP Rules state that only those planes which can perform an Immelman may perform an overdive.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    Ahhh, but any plane can fall rapidly towards the ground! LOL Thanks for the clarification!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by predhead View Post
    Ahhh, but any plane can fall rapidly towards the ground!
    ... but only those planes with Immelmann capability have a chance of surviving the fall!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by predhead View Post
    For an over dive there is no Immelman requirement. It is stall, dive, straight, yes?..
    Correct, but, as Tim has already mentioned, it is a rule requirement that "Airplanes not having an Immelmann manoeuvre card in their manoeuvre deck cannot execute overdives" p15 of RAP (2014). Probably as a suggestion to the strength of build of an aircraft required to recover from such a manoeuvre, so most of the later tandem types are good for it.


    Bad news for your next pilot that wants to attempt it !

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by predhead View Post
    You mean I have to WORK at my hobby?

    There was a source for blue pegs, but Ares, in a fit of legality, threatened the maker.
    Line 'em up and wave a spraycan in their direction, a toddler could do it. :P Was that Ares or Nexus under Italeri?
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Line 'em up and wave a spraycan in their direction, a toddler could do it. :P Was that Ares or Nexus under Italeri?
    Unfortunately, no...

    The pale blue pegs are translucent blue plastic, not externally coated with colour.
    Spraying Ares pegs would produce solid-block-coloured pegs, not translucent.

    I bought several packs of the blue pegs on ebay a couple of years after I joined the Forum, and I only "discovered" Wings after Ares reissue, so I think it must have been Ares who shut the competitor down.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  16. #16

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    As an aside, my bad, missed WWI vs WWII. Same principle is still valid even if the pegs are only 100' though, still gives you a LOT of altitude range to play with.

    The hard part is that for things like the SE5a and most WWII American fighters, they were built to fight in a vertical plane while most European and Japanese ones were built to fight in a horizontal one and it's MUCH easier to represent a horizontal-plane fight on a flat tabletop than a vertical one.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Spraying Ares pegs would produce solid-block-coloured pegs, not translucent.
    Vallejo has a set of transparent colors. Shouldn't that work?

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    Vallejo has a set of transparent colors. Shouldn't that work?
    And Testors makes transparent rattlecans, and Tamiya has some transparents in their catalog.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    Vallejo has a set of transparent colors. Shouldn't that work?
    By all means, try them.

    I use the Translucent Wood over a mid yellow for Albatros fuselages, but it's coverage is uneven, and it really needs the undersurface colour in order to adhere to the model.
    I'm not convinced it would work on unpainted, untreated hard plastic, but I'm happy to have my skepticism overturned!

    I don't use Tamiya any more - the coverage is awful, and brush streaks are unavoidable
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  20. #20

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    Read these bullets before your game session to refresh your memory:

    • The second Injured Pilot or Engine Damage will destroy your single-seater.
    • Aim bonus applies to each damage card drawn.
    • Rear gunners cannot fire during the whole Split-S or Immelmann sequence.
    • Fire damage is taken right after planning.
    • While on fire, straight maneuvers are not allowed.
    • Tailing has to be initiated in the beginning of the turn.
    • You cannot tail if on fire or smoking.
    • Overdive helps to extinguish fire.
    • Muti-engine aircraft ignore Disrupt.
    • Aircraft that don't have the 180 Turn card in their maneuver deck cannot execute Overdive.
    • The blind spot makes aircraft quite safe to attack from behind.
    • Gotha G.V ignores the blind spot when firing downwards.
    • Camel has the best right turn in the game.
    • Maneuver decks A and N are the fastest in the game.
    • Fokker D.VII is the best fighter in the game.
    • American DH.4s are bad climbers, unlike their British counterparts, which climb just perfectly.
    • Long sideslips are very powerful when played well.



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