Limited Ammunition

[redcoon2]

While reading a thread on the explosion card I ran across an old post (2011) that obliquely mentioned an interesting concept regarding limited ammunition.
The current game approach seems to grant unlimited ammunition to each pilot...you can fly and fire as long as you remain in the sky...seems very unrealistic.
The concept regarding limited ammunition seems pretty straightforward...
shuffle the damage deck for A or B guns prior to the start of the game and deal each pilot a set number of cards for the plane.
The damage cards remain shielded from the pilot (no selective damage option...play them as the occur).
In the event the pilot needs to reload they must exit the board on a friendly side and return to the board at the start of the next run, with a new "load of ammunition".
Just wonder if anyone has tried this, results/observations....???
Seems like and interesting concept worth a few trial runs but wonder how the level of ammunition differs from one plane to another?
Any thought or worthwhile comments anyone?

[OldGuy59]

This takes a simple game and starts adding "simulation" to it. Not a fan.

However, there are a few threads discussing this, as there are members that want "realism". It really depends on the plane, and the type of MG.

Synchronized Vickers MGs on the Entente side usually had more than enough ammo for a Wings of Glory game, as did similarly equipped Spandau MGs for the Central Powers.

Lewis MGs, with pan magazines were a different story. Same with other planes with rear MGs, in many different planes. You need a list of planes, with MG types and Magazine types to accurately track this.

As I state whenever someone wants to implement "Limited Ammo", you must get rid of checking range before making a decision to fire. Ammo is expended whether the target is in range or not.

Link-> Limited Ammo - Post# 4
Link-> WWI Machine Guns

There are lots more threads...

[flash]

I play ammo limits on Lewis & Parabellum armed planes in OTT, Thomas, it can make quite a difference in early war games as the Lewis only had a 47rd pan magazine that can run dry at the most inopportune moment. The larger 96 pan, that came in about Nov 1916, can sometimes last a game as can the Parabellum with it's 200rd drum.
Using the given RoF and the game phase time of a couple of seconds it works out a 47rd pan fires for 3 phases before it needs a reload, two or three spare pans are carried. The 96rd drum is double that, so six phases; the Parabellum's 200rd drum lasts 9 phases.
Over the years I've found it's not that often you'll get more than five shots off in an average game, a lot depends on the given scenario but I have occasionally lost the Lewis on a SE5a when it ran dry.
I think if you want to play limited ammo on belt fed weapons you'd need to restrict it to 5 or 6 shots - trade ammo tokens for cards from the damage deck, rather than doling them out, and as Mike suggests, no measuring until the token has been paid.

[predhead]

Using limited ammo adds a needed element. I do not like the thought of flying off to get more ammo and popping back in the next turn. Not realistic at all.

As for tracking, chits would work fine, and I agree, no measuring range until one has committed a chit of fire.

[OldGuy59]

If you read through the previous threads, one of the issues that is brought up is the tracking of expended ammo. How to do it, and how to keep your opponent from seeing the cards/tokens/pips, etc remaining.

This is something an opponent should never kmow.

Just an aside. I had a really bad run of jams in one game. I lost about 10 shot opportunities in a particularly heated dogfight. Does the gun jam at the start of the burst, or at the end?

Perhaps if the jam is on a "0" damage card, the ammo isn't expended. If any damage is caused, sufficient ammo was expended before the jam occured to loose a card/counter?

[Flying Helmut]

For early Lewis guns, I have used the Pyrkol Drum magazines from their Gun Jam set, and discarded one for each shot taken.
They are a bit klunky for travelling around on the aircraft base, though.

Here in the UK we have occasionally used limited ammo for both sides, utilising a pair of small dice for each plane, these being kept on the relevant console.
Start at 12, and count down one for each shot.
Shots are declared BEFORE range measurement, and damage cards are drawn regardless of actual measured range (to adjudicate Jams).
To prevent "me too" firing, opposing players facing off each conceal the Machine Gun token from the Wings of War game (looks like a road sign) behind their hand, simultaneously revealing either a gun symbol (shooting), or a gun symbol with a red line through it (not shooting).

[Flying Helmut]

Perhaps if the jam is on a "0" damage card, the ammo isn't expended. If any damage is caused, sufficient ammo was expended before the jam occured to loose a card/counter?

I have always taken it that the '0' jam is the same length of burst as a '1' jam or a '2' jam - it is simply that the entire bullet stream missed, just as for a '0' non-jam.

[flash]

I have always taken it that the '0' jam is the same length of burst as a '1' jam or a '2' jam - it is simply that the entire bullet stream missed, just as for a '0' non-jam.

Exactly that.

[Killer Moth]

I like the idea of halving the number of goose eggs in the decks if ammo is limited, and not counting a jam as an ammo expenditure.

[Killer Moth]

Thomas, serious question: do you mind if we add limited fuel to the topic? If not, I'll start another thread, because that's a subject that also intrigues me.

[Larry R.]

Thomas, serious question: do you mind if we add limited fuel to the topic? If not, I'll start another thread, because that's a subject that also intrigues me.

Limited ammo and fuel would add interesting layers of complexity to a game, and would give a game a greater degree of realism. In nearly every pilot memoir (of those I have read) there is one or more comments about breaking off from an encounter due to running out of ammo or running low on fuel; it was not uncommon, it seems.

One possible game scenario could involve one or more planes, while returning to their airfield, low on fuel and ammo, are attacked. You have neither sufficient fuel or ammo for an extended encounter. What do you do?

[Killer Moth]

Limited ammo and fuel would add interesting layers of complexity to a game, and would give a game a greater degree of realism. In nearly every pilot memoir (of those I have read) there is one or more comments about breaking off from an encounter due to running out of ammo or running low on fuel; it was not uncommon, it seems.

One possible game scenario could involve one or more planes, while returning to their airfield, low on fuel and ammo, are attacked. You have neither sufficient fuel or ammo for an extended encounter. What do you do?

That's a really clever idea; landing and restocking munitions. Could not only work for bullets, but also bombs/rockets.

[redcoon2]

Thomas, serious question: do you mind if we add limited fuel to the topic? If not, I'll start another thread, because that's a subject that also intrigues me.

Grea idea...seems to fit the discussion quite well.

All of the comments are quite thought provoking..

sorry to have not researched previous threads...lots of great information.

I don't think this adds significantly more complexity/realism to the game since we're already dealing with altitude/climb rates and ceiling restrictions..

Also, my thought on quick exit/renetry is simply landing a nearby airfield for reload....seems worthy of consideration.

[OldGuy59]

Grea idea...seems to fit the discussion quite well.

All of the comments are quite thought provoking..
...

Also, my thought on quick exit/re-entry is simply landing a nearby airfield for reload....seems worthy of consideration.

This will depend on where the dogfight is. Most Western Front dogfights were over German territory. Not always, but mostly.

So, if you determine before the game whether you are in Entente or Central territory, then someone could have the advantage of quick turn-arounds. The planes in enemy territory wouldn't be coming back to the fight, but there might be other planes joining in fresh.

[flash]

I like the idea of halving the number of goose eggs in the decks if ammo is limited, and not counting a jam as an ammo expenditure.

The goose eggs reflect accuracy rather than anything about ammo availability. Just 'cos you got less shouldn't make you a better shot !
Limiting fuel is easily done by either setting a turn, or, a real time limit to your game. It can be really frustrating when you're just about to reach your goal and have to break off the action though.
Landing and reloading/refueling isn't realistic within the time frames of the game though - if a game turn represents about six seconds how many turns would it take for your crew to service your aircraft ? Not sure turn on the ground would suffice.

[predhead]

For early Lewis guns, I have used the Pyrkol Drum magazines from their Gun Jam set, and discarded one for each shot taken.
They are a bit klunky for travelling around on the aircraft base, though.
.

My Google-Fu is weak...just what is this that you reference?

[Flying Helmut]

My Google-Fu is weak...just what is this that you reference?

I can't find any pictures online, either - not surprising really, since the Company has folded.

I may be able to take a photo of my Jam Markers, and post it here...if I can find them!

[predhead]

Ah, that explains why I cannot locate them! Thanks, Tim!

[predhead]

Ahhh, this might be a solution to keep other players knowing how many rounds one had left:

https://litko.net/products/gaslands-...scent-yellow-2

Keep the dial face down on the cockpit board.

[flash]

My Google-Fu is weak...just what is this that you reference?

Pyrkol produced laser cut and engraved acrylic markers designed to enhance your games. They did a set of Lewis guns with detachable pans to clip on the pegs to show out of ammo or some such - I was given a set & just use the pans to show a plane is reloading, rather than jammed. I have the 'drome store acrylic jam markers for that.

[Larry R.]

Pyrkol produced laser cut and engraved acrylic markers designed to enhance your games. They did a set of Lewis guns with detachable pans to clip on the pegs to show out of ammo or some such - I was given a set & just use the pans to show a plane is reloading, rather than jammed. I have the 'drome store acrylic jam markers for that.

I like this a lot. I'm trying to think of a way to replicate this.

[Killer Moth]

I was concerned that the normal number of 0's would make it too difficult to shoot down a plane when you were limited to drawing ~5-6 cards.

The goose eggs reflect accuracy rather than anything about ammo availability. Just 'cos you got less shouldn't make you a better shot !
Limiting fuel is easily done by either setting a turn, or, a real time limit to your game. It can be really frustrating when you're just about to reach your goal and have to break off the action though.
Landing and reloading/refueling isn't realistic within the time frames of the game though - if a game turn represents about six seconds how many turns would it take for your crew to service your aircraft ? Not sure turn on the ground would suffice.

[OldGuy59]

Another thread - Link-> Thoughts on Armament

[flash]

I like this a lot. I'm trying to think of a way to replicate this.

This is what the piece looks like in game, Larry, placed on the base of the N.17 that had emptied the last of it's pan into the Fokker the phase before:


Guess you could make a simple counter of an ammo pan, there are a load of images of them out there that might do the job.

[flash]

I was concerned that the normal number of 0's would make it too difficult to shoot down a plane when you were limited to drawing ~5-6 cards.

As I said previously - over the years I've found it's not that often you'll get more than five shots off in an average game, a lot depends on the given scenario of course.
This is why I suggested trade ammo tokens for cards from the damage deck, rather than doling the cards out to each player, as it would then be no different from a normal game; you give the card from the deck when you take the shot. The chances of what you draw are the same, if you take half the goose eggs out it won't be, simple as that.

[hokusai]

In WGS there is an optional rule for the Bf 109. Ammo is limited to a few shots for 20 mm cannons, unlimited for mgs. When you shoot, you declare if you use mgs alone or mgs + cannons. In the latter case you spend one ammo chit.
We played that rule last year in Prague in a battle of france scenario. I cannot recall whether the 109 pilots run out of ammo or not.

[Baron Rolf]

Ahhh, this might be a solution to keep other players knowing how many rounds one had left:

https://litko.net/products/gaslands-...scent-yellow-2

Keep the dial face down on the cockpit board.

I am going to steal this idea Darryl

[Flying Helmut]

In WGS there is an optional rule for the Bf 109. Ammo is limited to a few shots for 20 mm cannons, unlimited for mgs. When you shoot, you declare if you use mgs alone or mgs + cannons. In the latter case you spend one ammo chit.
We played that rule last year in Prague in a battle of france scenario. I cannot recall whether the 109 pilots run out of ammo or not.

True to life ammo limit, but very biased; the Spitfires and Hurricanes also carried a limited amount of ammo, but are not penalised in the game.

IIRC, Bf.109 4 cannon shots, 14 MG shots; Spitfire and Hurricane 6 shots

[Killer Moth]

Ahhh, this might be a solution to keep other players knowing how many rounds one had left:

https://litko.net/products/gaslands-...scent-yellow-2

Keep the dial face down on the cockpit board.

Pretty! Thanks for sharing!