Royal Bavarian Air Service - were those Fokkers all just fighters?

[VonWreckedoften]

OK, so I've been looking into the RBAS, and uncovered the following:-

Jastas 16, 23, 32, 34, 35, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, the number often suffixed with a "b" - eg 77b - to indicate its nationality (the four Jastas marked in red constituted Royal Bavarian Jagdgeschwader IV)

But were there other, non-fighter units in the RBAS? I can find nothing on bomber formations, for example; or 2-seater spotter/reconnaissance outfits; or observation balloons (wow - how about one of those covered in the blue/white rhomboid pattern?!?!)? Surely the initial 1914-1916 set up must have had other groups of aircraft? I think there was a recce unit in Mesopotamia, but know nothing more.

I don't have a huge budget, or much space for lots of new books, and would prefer the English language (certainly to Fraktur - evil schweinhunde!!!), but any simple histories of the Royal Bavarian Air Service, its aircraft - all of them, not just the sexy Fokkers - and operations, would be greatly appreciated. Especially free on-line stuff!

Thanks
Baron von Wreckedoften

[Paukenschlager]

I never realised German aviation was organised on a state-based structure! I thought that, being a military novelty born well after the creation of the Second Reich, it would have been arranged somehow like the navy, with no regional subdivision.
I'll have to look the topic up!

[predhead]

OK, so I've been looking into the RBAS, and uncovered the following:-

Jastas 16, 23, 32, 34, 35, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, the number often suffixed with a "b" - eg 77b - to indicate its nationality (the four Jastas marked in red constituted Royal Bavarian Jagdgeschwader IV)

But were there other, non-fighter units in the RBAS? I can find nothing on bomber formations, for example; or 2-seater spotter/reconnaissance outfits; or observation balloons (wow - how about one of those covered in the blue/white rhomboid pattern?!?!)? Surely the initial 1914-1916 set up must have had other groups of aircraft? I think there was a recce unit in Mesopotamia, but know nothing more.

I don't have a huge budget, or much space for lots of new books, and would prefer the English language (certainly to Fraktur - evil schweinhunde!!!), but any simple histories of the Royal Bavarian Air Service, its aircraft - all of them, not just the sexy Fokkers - and operations, would be greatly appreciated. Especially free on-line stuff!

Thanks
Baron von Wreckedoften

There were bomber formations in the RBAS...I have the Over the Front issue on the RBAS...let me try to remember to dig it out this evening and give you the various unit names.

Here is a Bavarian Schusta card:

https://linen.miraheze.org/wiki/File...Schusta27b.png

[predhead]

I never realised German aviation was organised on a state-based structure! I thought that, being a military novelty born well after the creation of the Second Reich, it would have been arranged somehow like the navy, with no regional subdivision.
I'll have to look the topic up!

Not only Bavarian, but there were Saxon and Wurttemburg formations as well.

[Larry R.]

This may be of interest:
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Imperi...an_Air_Service

[Paukenschlager]

Not only Bavarian, but there were Saxon and Wurttemburg formations as well.

That only makes sense, given the historical subdivision of the states and the resulting army structure. Nevertheless I am surprised to hear of the existance of separate Air Corps for different states!

In my reading experience, while for other military units in WW1 the state from which officers and men come from is often known and discussed (I am thinking of most generals on the Italian front, which are often presented with accompanying notes regarding their Bavarian origins as the main reason for their knowledge of mountain terrain - or even Rommel, which is always specified to be from Wurttemberg) this is not the case with flying aces, so I just assumed the Luftstreitkräfte was strictly an imperial establishment, a little like the K.u.K. Luftfahrtruppen in the Austro-Hungarian empire or the Kaiserliche Marine.

Very interesting topic!

[Larry R.]

In his memoir, Rudolf Stark tells of his staffel (Jagdstaffel 35) making an attempt to fly to Bavaria at the end if the war in order to set up defensive patrols along the border. He seemed to believe the Bavarian air service would remain intact after the war.

[Flying Helmut]

I'm pretty certain that I've come across photos and references to Bavarian two-seater squadrons in some of my Aeronaut books - I'll have a look if I get a chance (and if I REMEMBER!!!)

[VonWreckedoften]

As always, gentlemen, excellent and welcome responses - I look forward to whatever you can dig up.

In terms of State "independence" I understand that there were several areas where certainly the larger States, such as Bavaria and Saxony, and some of the smaller ones too, occasionally, pushed back against what was perceived as Prussian "bullying" over certain issues - military discipline was one of them, hence the (somewhat suspiciously) low figures for wartime executions of German personnel. This didn't happen so much in the navy, possibly because so many of the German states were landlocked!

[Flying Helmut]

- military discipline was one of them, hence the (somewhat suspiciously) low figures for wartime executions of German personnel.

Have a watch of Professor Peter Barton's excellent TV series "Battle of the Somme - From Both Sides of the Wire"

He addresses this in the third (of 3) programme

In short, British Military Courts Martial were staffed by serving Officers, almost all of them with no experience of practicing Law.
In the German Army, all such cases were tried by the Legal System, using trained Lawyers for both prosecution and defence, and in front of a Jury (so VERY few cases were sentenced to Capital Punishment).

Also, the German Army permitted the use of Corporal Punishment by officers to reprimand/discipline their own men; Prof. Barton asserts that a display of physical punishment in front of the "defendant"s colleagues/fellow soldiers was usually enough to prevent a recurrence of the offence.
Lastly, he asserts that the "Prussian" approach to training the troops instilled a much deeper sense of honour (and therefore offences were seen as deeply shameful) so soldiers endured for longer, rather than cause disciplinary issues.

It's a fascinating and informative few hours - watch it if you get a chance.

[Paukenschlager]

Have a watch of Professor Peter Barton's excellent TV series "Battle of the Somme - From Both Sides of the Wire"

Hi Tim - Where can I find the series? Sounds quite interesting. The more behind the scene aspects of Armies as organisations, I found out, are sometimes even more interesting that the bare military results of the same armies!

[Flying Helmut]

I watched it on a Freeview Channel in the UK - I believe it was "PBS America"

I still have it on my BlueRay/DVD/SD Card/Hard Drive recorder - I'll have a quick look when I'm home next.

[Larry R.]

In Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #67, Sopwith Pup Aces of World War 1, the author notes that Bavarian FA261 was equipped with two-seaters; one of the unit's pilots, Of Stv Fritz Kosmahl, became an ace while flying two-seaters.

[predhead]

Meant to post this last night, but was busy working on an upcoming tour I am leading.

In 1917 the following Bavarian Schustas were formed:

22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31.

By the end of the year there were 14 Fliegerabteilungen, nine Schustas, and eight Jastas.

In 1918 there were Bombenstafflen formed.

[Teaticket]

Great subject for discussion. Not a lot of attention paid to the non-fighter units. I have SCHLACTFLIEGER! Germany and the Origins of Air/Ground Support 1916-1918 by Schiffer. I'll dig into it to see if there were any notes on units from Bavaris, Saxony or Wurttemburg.

This is for ground support units. Not sure if there are any books on other tandem units.

[VonWreckedoften]

Have a watch of Professor Peter Barton's excellent TV series "Battle of the Somme - From Both Sides of the Wire"

He addresses this in the third (of 3) programme

FE - Thank you, that's most informative and - in the case of the Prussian military legal process - completely unknown to me until now. I think the programme is still available either on i-Player, or via the Western Front Association series of videos on YouTube - I have seen it before on the BBC, but hadn't picked up on the disicplinary references, and I shall definitely watch part 3 again. I was aware that German officers were allowed to inflict, and in some cases order others to inflict, corporal punishment, and assumed that this occasionally overspilled into the capital variety, hence the remark about the figure being suspiciously low. One thing I did learn, was that by the end of the war, there were estimated to be tens of thousands of deserters living in the German countryside, often quite openly working on farms - much to the disgust of the High Command. The 8th Army had a similar problem in North Africa in WW2, to such an extent that even as humane an officer as Auchinleck begged Churchill to allow him to reintroduce the death penalty.

Thanks once again.

[Jager]

From Schlachtflieger! by Rick Duiven and Dan-San Abbott, the Bavarian establishment had Schutzstaffels 22-31, and the Saxon's had Schutzstaffel 38.
22b-27b were created on 31-DEC-16 from various KG 6/Ks units, which were Bavarian staffels under KG 6 command (also Bavarian).
28b-31b were created from scratch later on.
38s was created from Fl.Abt. 24s (presumably a Saxon observer unit) on 16-JAN-18.

Karl

[mikeemagnus]

Don't know if this casts any further light on the subject, but I am currently reading "The Gotha Summer" by C.M.White pub: 1986. Concerning the establishment of Kagohl 3, I quote :
"Each Gotha G.IV would require a crew of three: the commander of the aircraft, a non-piloting officer/observer, who was also the navigator/ bomb aimer/front gunner; the pilot, who could be an officer or senior NCO; and the rear gunner, usually an Unteroffizier (corporal). It has been suggested that there was some friction between officers and NCOs of Kagohl 3, principally because the latter resented the class-distinction of the well-educated officers. Nor was that all: the posting of Bavarian aircrews to Prussian air units, and vice versa, as was sometimes necessary, could, and did, lead to problems. There was little love lost between the two provincial groups, even though both Bavaria and Prussia were part of the Kaiser's German Empire. However, it is interesting to note that Bavaria, in the GermanConstitution of 1871, had retained some elements of sovereignty, military administration being one of them. Such a curious situation can scarcely have been conducive towards general discipline in air units in which both Prussians and Bavarians were serving."

So the implication is that, yes, there must have been non scout/fighter units in the air service controlled by Bavaria; bomber aircrews from both regions were mixed; they didn't always get along very well. Unfortunately, no details are given about which units crew were taken from to form Kagohl 3.

Hope this helps

[Flying Helmut]

I'm pretty certain that I've come across photos and references to Bavarian two-seater squadrons in some of my Aeronaut books - I'll have a look if I get a chance (and if I REMEMBER!!!)

Albatros Aircraft of WW1 Volume 1 - Early Two-seaters

page 134...............photo Albatros C.I 62/15.............................Ltn. Robert Greim................................................Flieger Abteilung 3b (Bavarians)
page 141................photo (trainer).................................................Eduard Ritter von Schliech flew in Flieger Abteilung 2b
page 158................photo Albatros C.III(OAW) 1388/16............Lt. Hermann von Raumer (pilot) Oblt. Adam Brey (observer)..............Kampfstaffel 34b, KG6b...........Colour Profile page 201
page 172...............photo Albatros C.III C.147/16.............................................................................................................."of Bavarian Flieger Abteilung 46"

Rumpler Aircraft of WW1 - no specific mention of Bavarian units.

The Blue Max Airmen volume 19 -

(page 4) Feldflieger-Abteilung 8b "b signifying that it was a wholly Bavarian unit under that kingdom's jurisdiction" - Otto Kissenberth's first squadron, January 1915 flying LVG B.I (possibly B.II also) - page 26
he then transferred to FFA 9b on 8 May 1915, to train on Pfalz A.I/A.II two-seater monoplanes - Colour Profile & Planform page 54

(page 13) FFA 9b provided pilots for the formation of Jasta 16b

(page 152) Fritz Rumey flew in Flieger-Abteilung 46b "early spring-April 1917" - no specific aircraft are mentioned.


Hopefully, I'll be back when I have more time (Yeah, Right!)

[VonWreckedoften]

Well, some truly impressive knowledge on this forum, and no mistake. Thank you one and all.