He.111 -- Cannon in the tail?

**Sagrilarus** · 07-30-2017 20:05

I watched Dunkirk and at one point a Spit is tailing an He.111 and the movie sound had a rather distinct boom boom boom, which I presumed was a 30mm or 20mm cannon firing from the bomber. But I looked up the 111 on Wikipedia and found no mention of a model with a cannon in the tail.

You guys usually know more, was this an error in the film, or was there another position in the plane that could fire rearward with a cannon?

**flash** · 07-31-2017 00:46

Not seen the film yet - could the sound have been rounds impacting on the Spit ?
The He-111 could have a MG in the tail, could have a 20mm cannon firing forward, could have a 13mm (MG.131) dorsal gun - whether the variant available would have had these options at the time of Dunkirk is the question. Doubtful but something you might want to research further.

Seems it didn't help this one !

**Sagrilarus** · 07-31-2017 06:54

The sound wasn't the tin-plate sound of hits on the airplane, more of the dull thud of a cannon at a distance, and very regular. I'll admit, it had the desired effect in the film. I got that sinking "oh crap" feeling when I heard it. The director may have simply chosen to enhance the reality to make it more dramatic. The film takes a whole lot of liberties with other aspects of the war and even a disagreement with how flying works.

My buddy is getting into WG2 and is asking me about getting a green He.111 (like everyone else) and it got me reviewing what I have in my box. I looked at my 111 in detail and what armaments it has. No cannon. No cannon facing rear on Wikipedia either.

Great photo by the way. Makes it pretty clear that a cannon would be tough to fit in the space. German bombers were just too doggone small for their own good.

**flash** · 07-31-2017 09:11

This is a better shot of the set up.

This is a flamethrower they tried out in 1940 at Tarnewitz ....

**csadn** · 07-31-2017 15:15

This has been brought up before, but to reiterate:

The He-111H-6 carried a MG17 [7.92mm] in the tailcone; it didn't work well, being effectively non-aimable, and was dismounted more often than not.

**Naharaht** · 07-31-2017 19:43

I think we may have a case of 'artistic licence' in the movie - historical details being distorted for dramatic effect.

**Doug** · 08-01-2017 00:20

From what I have read I have my doubts that the tail MG was even fitted during the "Battle of Britian" and certainly not at Dunkirk

**Sagrilarus** · 08-01-2017 06:25

Yeah, because there ain't nobody back there to aim the doggone thing. There's no visibility and no room.

I'm a little disappointed that Dunkirk seemed to get so much wrong. That's just not something that happens nearly as much in modern films. I damn near squirmed out of my seat when the three spits were flying with maybe three feet between their wingtips. "Just spread out a bit jackasses!"

**Sagrilarus** · 08-01-2017 06:39

Originally Posted by flash

This is a flamethrower they tried out in 1940 at Tarnewitz ....

Presumably this is to make sure the flak can find them?

**flash** · 08-01-2017 08:53

Originally Posted by Sagrilarus

Yeah, because there ain't nobody back there to aim the doggone thing. There's no visibility and no room.

It was there to fill a blind spot so it didn't need to be aimed just lob rounds out to discourage someone staying there and kicking their back door in - same goes for the flamethrower... Though you might think you got him & break off !

Originally Posted by Sagrilarus

I'm a little disappointed that Dunkirk seemed to get so much wrong. That's just not something that happens nearly as much in modern films. I damn near squirmed out of my seat when the three spits were flying with maybe three feet between their wingtips. "Just spread out a bit jackasses!"

It's a movie, just be glad they got anything right ! As it is, flying with three feet between their wingtips, that might be a deliberate exaggeration of the vic formation that was flown at the beginning of the conflict - they were renowned for being tight and cause the pilot to look at little else but his wingtip - maybe they want to make it so obvious so the average punter gets that it might be the wrong thing to do ?

**Flying Helmut** · 08-01-2017 12:40

Originally Posted by Sagrilarus

I'm a little disappointed that Dunkirk seemed to get so much wrong. That's just not something that happens nearly as much in modern films.

Oh yes it is!

No movie ever gets it right.

They're not interested in historical facts, only in portraying "the Director's vision".

**csadn** · 08-01-2017 14:14

Originally Posted by Doug

From what I have read I have my doubts that the tail MG was even fitted during the "Battle of Britian" and certainly not at Dunkirk

[nod] H-6 was late '40, so if it appeared at all in BoB, it was at the *very* end.

**OldGuy59** · 08-01-2017 19:00

Originally Posted by Doug

From what I have read I have my doubts that the tail MG was even fitted during the "Battle of Britian" and certainly not at Dunkirk

Originally Posted by csadn

[nod] H-6 was late '40, so if it appeared at all in BoB, it was at the *very* end.

Link: Wikipedia - Heinkel He.111

He 111 H-3
Similar to H-2, but with Jumo 211 A-3 engines. Like the H-2, five MG 15 machine guns were standard. One A Stand MG FF cannon could be installed in the nose and an MG 15 could be installed in the tail unit.

Production of the H-3, powered by the 895 kW (1,200 hp) Jumo 211 D-1, began in October 1939. Experiences during the Polish Campaign led to an increase in defensive armament. MG 17s were fitted whenever possible and the number of machine guns was increased to seven. The two waist positions received an additional MG 15 or 17, and on some variants a belt-fed MG 17 was even installed in the tail.

**csadn** · 08-02-2017 13:41

H-3 were much like the H-6s: The gun was found to be useless, and was dismounted almost immediately (if it was mounted at all).

**johnbiggles** · 08-18-2017 04:26

The sound of incoming shots throughout the film 'Dunkirk' is deliberately enhanced I think, in the opening scenes I thought the squaddies were being chased by .50 cal rounds the sound was so loud and deep. On the other hand, I've only heard weapons from the side, I've never been in front of them. It certainly serves to shock the audience!

**OldGuy59** · 08-18-2017 08:17

Originally Posted by johnbiggles

The sound of incoming shots throughout the film 'Dunkirk' is deliberately enhanced I think, in the opening scenes I thought the squaddies were being chased by .50 cal rounds the sound was so loud and deep. On the other hand, I've only heard weapons from the side, I've never been in front of them. It certainly serves to shock the audience!

Any sound effects for gunfire of any calibre in a movie is usually enhanced. Most people can't identify the real sound of gunfire, as small calibre weapons sound like a champagne corks being released. Pops, not bangs.

Then, we go to the anecdote of 'Buzz' Beurling having the tracer rounds removed from the ammo belts in his plane, because the flash of the tracers passing by let the enemy know they were being shot at. So, sound was not an issue in a real dogfight. Consider that at WWII speeds, sounds of guns being fired would have to overcome the distance, and the noise of the pilot's own plane, and get into the cockpit. IMHO, any 'sound' of enemy gunfire in a dogfight is strictly for the audience, and shouldn't be there, at all.

**Flying Helmut** · 08-18-2017 10:46

Same deal with films and explosions - every car that explodes in a Hollywood movie goes off like it's filled with half a ton of TNT sitting in 50 gallons of petrol.

I've seen several cars blown up, and not a one of them went like that.............

**csadn** · 08-18-2017 12:26

Originally Posted by Flying Helmut

I've seen several cars blown up, and not a one of them went like that.............

I've seen a couple -- and both were Australian V8 Supercars; there was a design flaw which put the fuel cell in a place were a solid rear-end impact would cause it to rupture. One was at Bathurst when someone backed into a wall just after a fuel stop; the other was at another track, when someone botched a standing start and got rear-ended. Scared the announcers half to death....