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Thread: Query: Lufbery's Nieuport 17

  1. #1

    Default Query: Lufbery's Nieuport 17

    I'm about to repaint my new Thaw/Lufbery N.17 to reflect Lufbery's machine. OK, lose the "T"...simple. But when I look at the three bars near the tail, I see two differing color renditions; one black and one red. Further, I even see some color images rendering the cowling red as well, as opposed to the more common silver. Examining what b&w images I can find, the cowling issue may be a moot point but it's hard to clarify the color of the bars as I can't see any roundels, nor can I see the red stripe on the rudder.

    Admittedly, for game purposes, the red cowling and red bars will better differentiate the model, but can somebody tell me which scheme is truly correct?

  2. #2

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    Looks like no colour on the cowling - most favour red stripes - all below are pics of him and his machines:


    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    There have been a few threads on the Forum and elsewhere about the colors of particular planes. I can't find them at the moment.

    Black & White photographs are very poor indicators of whatever colors were present at the time. Many things interfer with the appearance of different shades and colors, depending on the composition of the paint and the film used. Intesity of the lighting, reflections off the surfaces, fading of the colors, and many more things all affect the image as well. IIRC, for German images using orthochromatic films, it is nearly impossible to tell black from red. Many other colors shift in intensity and saturation, giving significant changes in the actual shades used on a given plane.

    I dredged up an example for comparison. In the images below, we know for certain that the Italian markings were red. But what about the crescent on the fuselage? Without a color reference, or period painting, using B&W photos will likely never allow us to determine the color.

    Color version of a plane:
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    Simulated B&W image using orthochromatic film:
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    Example Source: ipmsstockholm.org - Camouflage & Markings - Italian Ace Giorgio Pessi and his Spad VII (Scroll to the bottom for a B&W example of the paint scheme of this plane, and compare it to the color examples provided)
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  4. #4

    Thumbs up

    G'day Mike!
    Seeing there is no definite information I would go for the Red Cowl & bars.
    That will stand out on the Games Mat.

  5. #5

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    Has anyone read any contemporary books such as Eddie Rickenbacker's 'Fighting the Flying Circus'? Might one of them provide a description of Raoul Lufbery's aircraft?

  6. #6

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    Found a fuller image of the one above Mike - you can see nose and tail in this one

    http://www.digitalhistoryproject.com...world-war.html

    "He is wise who watches"

  7. #7

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    I wouldn't trust Rickenbacker's accounts - they're chock full of mistakes, distortions and probably worse!

    That last image shows the 3 bars appearing to be darker than the red rudder stripe, but that could just be fresher paint, or even a different shade of paint from that of the factory.
    The cowling appears the same shade as the fuselage, so I'd go with silver.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  8. #8

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    Now we're just going in circles....

    >;)

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Now we're just going in circles....

    >
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    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
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    [Quicksilver] What -- you didn't see that coming? [/Quicksilver] >;)

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Found a fuller image of the one above Mike - you can see nose and tail in this one

    http://www.digitalhistoryproject.com...world-war.html
    Thanks everybody. And thanks Flash for finding this particular image. I'd seen a couple cropped versions of it but I can see a bit of the red on the rudder. It seems lighter than the bars...but then, said rudder seems to also be in a brighter light and not shadowed as it looks the bars may be...except maybe under the tail. When compared to the b&w rendition of the color illustration provided by Old Guy, the shade of the tail seems lighter than the bars...similar to the red spot in his roundel vs. the black crescent. Still a tough call. Even the red vs. black in the Indian's face are somewhat blended and don't provide a definitive answer.

    However, the bright side is, the cowling (as I'd previously said) looks to be silver like the rest of the body so, yes, a "confirmed" moot point there.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    G'day Mike!
    Seeing there is no definite information I would go for the Red Cowl & bars.
    That will stand out on the Games Mat.
    Thanks Barry. I'm really tempted, for game's sake, to do just that. Sadly, I AM a stickler for detail and authenticity. Maybe I'll do my third one without bars and paint the cowling red, claiming an "unknown" ace on the modified airplane card.

  13. #13

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    I have a good book on N17s of the Lafayette Escadrille. I'll get to it this weekend and see if they have anything on Lufbery's.

  14. #14

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    Russell Smith usually nails the historical accuracy in his artwork.

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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by predhead View Post
    Russell Smith usually nails the historical accuracy in his artwork.

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    WOW! If he's truly an authority, I have to say "Thanks for sharing"!

    I now need to pull my L.E. planes out and finally finish them (can you believe how many years it's been since my original query? ).

  16. #16

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    I get accused of reviving old posts from time to time (rightfully so)...but as I am searching terms I stumble across something that I can either help with or I am interested in!

    I just won a N.17 Lufbery/Thenault on eBay...most likely I will do the third plane in the painting (Hill), with the plain fuselage. I am pretty certain camelbeagle has the other two already.

    And glad to help!
    Last edited by predhead; 08-06-2023 at 10:16.

  17. #17

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    Nothing wrong with a bit of useful thread necromancy
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    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  18. #18

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    At least Mike was about to reap the benefit.. see what I did there.. and can finish his models after 6 years. Is that a faster turn round than Ares ?!

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

  20. #20

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59



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