Ni 17 and two guns

[Ken at Sunrise]

There is conversation over at BGG about the Nieuport 17 having two guns.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/26127739#26127739

The planes did come today. I ordered five from the new series. Every one of them came with ace, ace ability (including some new ones) and/or special characteristics cards.

I did notice one unusual thing, though. Two of the three Nieuport 17s have both a belt fed and a wing mounted Lewis gun, allowing them to fire using the A deck. In reality, that was a rare armament configuration. The vast majority of Nieuport 17s had either the Vickers or the Lewis gun, not both.

Could be a balance thing.....

-Ski

Ski,

It could be balance. After I posted that I did some research in the books I'd collected for the WWI air game that I designed and found that the 2-gun setup was even less common that I'd thought. Both the British and Italians experimented with it and found that mounting the second gun had severe negative affects on the Nieuport 17s maneuverability and rate of climb.

[Lohengrin]

I am NOT a big fan of "balance ahistoricity" in games like this. Create balance in another manner.

[flash]

What is being forgotten here is that these are modelled on a particular pilots machine - Nungesser certainly had two gun machines, plural intended, I have even seen one in the Windsock data file with a Vickers & twin Lewis over-wing ! One for the uber fanboys there.
It is also of course a balance thing, as I'm sure Andrea has mentioned before, nobody says it was common but it did happen. If you don't like it remove a gun and/or fly it as a B firer !

[Lohengrin]

But to my knowledge the N17s with 2 guns have no climb or maneuverability penalties, right?

[Flying Helmut]

But to my knowledge the N17s with 2 guns have no climb or maneuverability penalties, right?

That's right, none whatsoever.

And now they have been given the extra "Higher Gun" upgrade, which makes them MUCH better when in an overlap

[gully_raker]

I will just keep using my N.17's as they were used by the RFC. One Lewis on the top wing.
I did NOT buy any of the new ones! ( would have if they had modelled Ball's plane!)

[Old guy]

Agree with Gully, it would have been nice to see an Albert Ball N17. Well maybe next time

[Naharaht]

The pilots chosen were all well known aces. Hopefully, Albert Ball will be remembered when the S.E.5a's are reprinted.

[ReducedAirFact]

This from Windsock Datafile #20:

In French service most Nie.17s were armed with a single machine-gun: either a Lewis gun on an over-wing mounting (which existed in various forms) or a fixed Vickers gun mounted centrally and regulated by the Alkan-Hamy synchronizing mechanism. Some pilots found the single gun inadequate and various installations of two guns appeared on some Nieuports: when the Vickers was fitted, a Lewis might be added to the upper wing; twin Lewis guns were also tried by some warlike pilots, but all such supplementary weapons must have impaired performance. Those Nieuports that came to the RFC had as standard a Lewis gun on a Foster mounting on the upper mainplane: in an instruction dated November 20 1916 Brig.-Gen. HRM Brooke-Popham, DAQMG, advised No.1 AD that "Nieuport single-seaters will be fitted with the Foster overhead gun mounting for Lewis guns and all the parts fitted on these machines for Vickers guns and interrupter gear will be removed before issue." This ruling was applied not only to the Nieuport 17 but to all Nieuports 23, 24, 24bis, and 27.

That's quite a statement: it's one thing to specify that newly-built Nieuports would get the single Lewis, it's going quite a bit further to actually rip the Vickers out of a plane on which it had already been mounted. French Aircraft of the First World War confirms the effect on performance:

Number 6678 was tested with a fixed Vickers and an overwing Lewis, but the two guns seriously degraded the aircraft's climb and maneuverability and no other (RFC) Nieuport 17's were so armed.

[Doug]

I am keeping Ni17 with 2 guns as I have done in the past.

[monse]

And now they have been given the extra "Higher Gun" upgrade

An information from Andrea about the Nieuport 17 with 2 machine guns, in the future Scenarios and Campaign Set :

There is no reduction of cost for a Nieuport with a lower machinegun.
the system will instead consider a 5 points increase of cost for planes with the upper one, if the optional rule is in use

[Flying Helmut]

An information from Andrea about the Nieuport 17 with 2 machine guns, in the future Scenarios and Campaign Set :

There is no reduction of cost for a Nieuport with a lower machinegun.
the system will instead consider a 5 points increase of cost for planes with the upper one, if the optional rule is in use

Makes no difference to me, I don't do "points"

I simply negate the "Higher Gun" rule in an overlap by training all my Central Powers pilots to ALWAYS drop low in an overlap, so the Entente plane is higher, so it can't use this unnecessary and overpowerful rule.

[Schlonz]

A quote from the synopsis of
'A History of No.6 Squadron: Royal Naval Air Service in World War I' by Mike Westrop:
"Despite No.6 Squadron RNAS being the first British fighter squadron to deploy a production twin gun scout on the Western Front....."

The squadron was completely equipped with Nieuport 17bis with the twin gun configuration.



p.s.: Anyone happen to possess the above mentioned book? I'm looking for
colour profiles of the units N.17bis'.

[Zoe Brain]

From "Fighter Pilot" Routlidge 1936 by "McScotch" (Lt. William MacLanachan) of 40 Squadron, RFC. A digital version for Kindle is available quite cheaply.

After tea I decided to have another spell over the trenches, and while hunting for my machine, noticed a new type of Nieuport standing beside ours. She looked like a racehorse among a lot of old cab hacks; her fuselage was circular in section and perfectly streamlined; her tail plane was a typical ‘fish tail’, and as a double Lewis gun was mounted on the plane her whole appearance “was so clean and warlike I remarked to the others:

That description fits a Nieuport 24 or 27. Circular fuselage means 17bis, 24, 24bis or 27. "Fish tail" narrows it to 24 or 27.

I had the machine of my dreams. With her the German Archie gunners were not likely to trouble me much because of her similarity of outline to that of their own scouts, the double Lewis gun would give me a great moral advantage over the enemy, and I had had a feeling of confidence in her from the moment I had stepped into the cockpit.

That rules out a 17bis. The 24, 24bis and 27 had different wing shapes from the 17 and 17bis.

As the attacker pulled out of his ‘dive’, still above my level, I let down my Lewis guns and, making a complete circle, fired fifteen or twenty rounds at him. Having no sights, and being dependent on tracer bullets to estimate the direction of my bursts, I missed him, but, probably disliking the terrifying sound of the two Lewis guns firing simultaneously, he immediately turned east and was followed closely by the other four...
.
The moral effect on the Germans must have been considerable when, added to this surprise, was the speed at which my double Lewis guns fired in contrast to the slow tat-tat-tat of their guns synchronised to fire through the propeller.

Regarding the replacement of Nieuport 24/24bis/27 with SE5's:

In the early part of October(1917) the G.O.C. carried out a much-needed improvement in our equipment. The poor old Nieuports had been outclassed by the Albatros so long, and so many of our patrols had ended in the frustration of our hopes of getting to close quarters with the enemy, that the Squadron was gradually equipped with a much faster machine, the S.E.5a. These were capable of attaining a speed of 120 m.p.h. on the level, their diving speed was over 200 m.p.h. against the Nieuports’ 150 and, in addition, they were equipped with a Vickers gun synchronised to fire through the propeller as well as the standard Lewis gun mounted on the top plane.
...
After the delightful ‘music’ of my double Lewis even the combination of Vickers and Lewis sounded tame. Because of the scarcity of Lewis guns an application to have my double Lewis returned proved abortive, the infantry needed them more than we did.

When firing in continuous semi-automatic mode, ie when synchrinised, both Vickers and Spandau had a rate of fire about 2/3 of standard, so around 300-400 rpm. The Lewis had a ROF of 500-600.

A synchronised vickers would run out of rounds after about 90 secs of continuous fire. A lewis would run out after 10-12 seconds, or only 6 if using the earlier 47 round drums.

Standard for Nieuports in RFC service was a single overwing lewis, but obviously at least some had the same overwing twin lewis mount as was standard on RFC Camel Comics and French Naval nightfighting N11s, 16s and 17s. The decrease in performance on the N11 in particular didn't matter when hunting relatively sedate night bombers, and an overwing mount prevented loss of night vision from muzzle flash. A twin lewis with 4 drums would weigh about as much as a synchro vickers with 500 rounds.

[csadn]

Another question for Javier Arango to answer....

[Lohengrin]

And as with all Lewis equipped planes, ammo should be a BIG issue inside the game.

[flash]

Another question for Javier Arango to answer....

Be a bit difficult now.

And as with all Lewis equipped planes, ammo should be a BIG issue inside the game.

It can be, some of us use limited ammo house rules Mark.
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-That-Got-Away
These are the rules I use:
Lewis guns had 47 round drum mags until Nov 1916 when the 97 Round drum mag was introduced to all squadrons. RoF is 500-600 Rpm; or 8-10 Rps - that's 5-6 sec of ammo in a 47 drum; 10-12 sec in a 97 drum. In the game that's 3 rounds of shooting for the 47 drum, 6 for the 97 before you have to reload. (At close range that's 6 or 12 cards of damage with +1s where appropriate)
German's Parabelllum MG had 200 round drum mags, RoF is 700rpm, or, 11.6 rps - that's (very roughly) 18 sec of ammo per drum. In the game that's 9 phases of shooting per drum before you have to reload. (At close range that's 18 cards of damage with +1s where appropriate, or, nearly half a B deck !

[Nicola Zee]

And as with all Lewis equipped planes, ammo should be a BIG issue inside the game.

Agreed.
What I was surprised about is how little a Mark I Lewis gun weighs - because it does not need the heavy barrel cover in the air.
It's a mere 17lbs. The ammo drums are heavy - 9lbs each. Two 96 drums (9lbs each) weigh more than the gun!

The key issue with the dual lewis in weight terms is the weight of the extra ammo. Sure you can double the guns but if your plane does not have the oomph to carry extra drums you will run out of ammo twice as quickly.

[Lohengrin]

I know there are house rules for ammo and that's great. I will use them. My greater point is that these unique "souped up" crates modeled in the game cater to the Munchkins who always need "uber" weapons regardless of history and result in ahistorical combat performance "out of the box". Just a pet peeve. When my brother and I played Richthofen's War as teens we actually learned about the strengths and weaknesses of each side's aircraft and learned to work with what we had. This cherry picking makes WOG seem like WH40K. Which is maybe the marketing idea here.

[Flying Helmut]

I know there are house rules for ammo and that's great. I will use them. My greater point is that these unique "souped up" crates modeled in the game cater to the Munchkins who always need "uber" weapons regardless of history and result in ahistorical combat performance "out of the box". Just a pet peeve. When my brother and I played Richthofen's War as teens we actually learned about the strengths and weaknesses of each side's aircraft and learned to work with what we had. This cherry picking makes WOG seem like WH40K. Which is maybe the marketing idea here.

Don't get me started.

I go out of my way to avoid or sideline all the non-mainstream options, and fly the majority configurations wherever possible.

[flash]

I know there are house rules for ammo and that's great. I will use them. My greater point is that these unique "souped up" crates modeled in the game cater to the Munchkins who always need "uber" weapons regardless of history and result in ahistorical combat performance "out of the box". Just a pet peeve. When my brother and I played Richthofen's War as teens we actually learned about the strengths and weaknesses of each side's aircraft and learned to work with what we had. This cherry picking makes WOG seem like WH40K. Which is maybe the marketing idea here.

Well we get those sorts of people in all games sadly - it doesn't bother me though as the models are based on the real thing, I can adjust everything else as I think is required & I'd rather have guns on it I can remove than not have them when/where I want them. Of course it also gives the dreaded 'balance' to those that seem to need it and the point counters too so it is really made to satisfy several diverse needs. Just be happy we got them.

[Lohengrin]

Well I am happy we've got them. I have bought them and there's no problem with just ignoring the A firing class, or employing ammo rules, etc. I just wish it wasn't a "thing", that's all I'm saying.

[Nicola Zee]

Well we get those sorts of people in all games sadly - it doesn't bother me though as the models are based on the real thing, I can adjust everything else as I think is required & I'd rather have guns on it I can remove than not have them when/where I want them. Of course it also gives the dreaded 'balance' to those that seem to need it and the point counters too so it is really made to satisfy several diverse needs. Just be happy we got them.

I agree. All good points.

What I would have liked (not essential but it would have been nice) would be if each such plane came with an additional official alternate plane card.
This would make switching to a 'B' gun easier.

[Jager]

Interesting points; I had not known they were issuing A deck Nieuports; I'm not a big fan of the type, so I didn't pre-read about this.
I think I might need to look into what performance changes to make for these.
Karl

[Wolfbiter]

I haven't gotten my Nungesser Nieuport 17 yet, but didn't the preview on Ares' site say that his plane comes with a card to use the regular "B" damage deck as well as the custom "A" damage armament?

[Timmo UK]

A quote from the synopsis of
'A History of No.6 Squadron: Royal Naval Air Service in World War I' by Mike Westrop:
"Despite No.6 Squadron RNAS being the first British fighter squadron to deploy a production twin gun scout on the Western Front....."

The squadron was completely equipped with Nieuport 17bis with the twin gun configuration.



p.s.: Anyone happen to possess the above mentioned book? I'm looking for
colour profiles of the units N.17bis'.

I thought about buying the book to do Naval 6 until I realised that these twin guns N17 are the 'bis' model with the rounded f/l and not the plane that Ares sells.

[john snelling]

Well we get those sorts of people in all games sadly - it doesn't bother me though as the models are based on the real thing, I can adjust everything else as I think is required & I'd rather have guns on it I can remove than not have them when/where I want them. Of course it also gives the dreaded 'balance' to those that seem to need it and the point counters too so it is really made to satisfy several diverse needs. Just be happy we got them.

Totally agree. We are playing a game with toys. Playing with a toy aircraft having one instead of two guns or two instead of one gun is not real hard. Yes, I am happy!

[Marechallannes]

I haven't gotten my Nungesser Nieuport 17 yet, but didn't the preview on Ares' site say that his plane comes with a card to use the regular "B" damage deck as well as the custom "A" damage armament?

An A firing Nieuport, using the higher machine gun rule can only attack with B.

That's how I read the card.

But with a two pilot option for one plane, Thaw & Lufbery get one pilot card each:
Attachment 226661

[Naharaht]

You are correct, Sven, because only the Lewis gun can be pulled back to fire upwards.

[ReducedAirFact]

Thanks for posting the picture of the twin-gun RNAS Nieuport 17bis. I was just finishing modeling the whole Nieuport 17 family for Shapeways, and I wasn't sure whether I should do a twin-gun 17bis -- now the answer is clearly "yes".

[flash]

An A firing Nieuport, using the higher machine gun rule can only attack with B.

That's how I read the card.

That's correct Sven but there is a card with Nungesser's Nieuport that David was referring to:
Alternative Armament: The machine gun on the upper wing was sometimes removed. In this case the airplane fires with B damage instead of A.
Check out Sam's unboxing thread I missed this before & have added it to rules sticky etc.

[Marechallannes]

Ah, ok.

Similar to the Nieuport 11's card. "Rockets only"

I really like the new cards.

[flash]

Ah, ok.

Similar to the Nieuport 11's card. "Rockets only"

I really like the new cards.

Yeah, it's just makes "official" what many do already by providing a card for it... and therein lies the danger.