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Thread: Albatros D.Va versus Spad XIII

  1. #1

    Default Albatros D.Va versus Spad XIII

    I was looking at the Dual Pack which contained the Albatros D.Va and Spad XIII, which I have.

    Since they (the two opposing planes) come in the same package, I'm guessing they are a good match for each other. I'm just curious if that is so.
    The Albatros D.Va is 82 points and the Spad XIII 85 points as listed on this forum. The Albatros has three slideslips to the Spad's 2. But otherwise the Spad is faster and has more hit points; though the difference isn't as much as the Dr.1. If you use altitude, we usually don't but one has been asking, the Spad can out climb the Albatros and has a higher ceiling.

    With the Dual Pack and my collection I ended up with equal numbers of these planes, so this seemed like it would be easy to grab them for a play. I also have the same amount of Dr.1 but I heard they have a harder go. Not impossible but the Spad has a distinct advantage.

    Thank you for your thoughts and opinions. Are they balanced.


    P.S. I know that many battles were not balanced. But in this game we'd like both sides to have an equal/balanced chance.
    P.P.S. Is it Spad or SPAD. I've seen both.

  2. #2

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    Altitude and climb are not taken in consideration.

    If I was an odds maker, the D.V has a 49% chance of winning compared to 51% for the Spad.

    82 pts vs 85 pts is a fairly balanced game. It is not perfectly balanced.

    It gets very unbalanced when a Fokker E.III 48 takes on a F2B at 111.

  3. #3

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    Personally when I set a custom duel 1:1 with (especially) new player I always confront a faster plane with a more versatile one, staying within historical frame.
    SPAD XIII versus Dr.I is a perfect choice for example, to show newbies the differeces between planes' behaviour in the air and to learn them different tactics.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  4. #4

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    Why not just play them against each other and decide for yourself?

    If they are both from the same time period, then they are a good match.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Why not just play them against each other and decide for yourself?

    If they are both from the same time period, then they are a good match.
    I was hoping get some insight before I played with newer players. I don't get the change to play to often. We prefer balanced games of historically accurate games. The best way to turn off casual gamers is to have one sided games. They quickly move on to something else they have a fair chance of winning regardless of how history played out.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    I was hoping get some insight before I played with newer players. I don't get the change to play to often. We prefer balanced games of historically accurate games. The best way to turn off casual gamers is to have one sided games. They quickly move on to something else they have a fair chance of winning regardless of how history played out.
    I agree with you about one sided games and newbies. I do not think you will have a problem with the Spad XIII vs D.Va.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    I was hoping get some insight before I played with newer players.
    Everyone's insight will be different, based on their own experiences.

    A player who is a brilliant dogfighter but poor Boom-n-zoomer will sing the praises of a Fokker Triplane, and pooh-pooh a SPAD. A rubbish dogfight player will tell you exactly the opposite.

    And any player who refuses to play because he thinks "it's not fair!" simply isn't worth spending any time on.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  8. #8

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    SPAD XIII vs Albatros D.Va: It's a good matchup in both the "balance" sense and the historical sense. These planes did face each other frequently and were mainstays of their respective air forces.

    SPAD is an acronym (you can look it up if you like) and should be capitalized as such.

    In pure game terms, the Albatros will slightly out-turn the SPAD, and the SPAD will somewhat out-run the Albatros. Without playing a true mirror match (where each side flys the same aircraft), it's one of the closest match-ups you'll find in the game. You should have fun, I think!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Everyone's insight will be different, based on their own experiences.... And any player who refuses to play because he thinks "it's not fair!" simply isn't worth spending any time on.
    Spot on Tim.
    Ken, it's a historical match up but a reasonably fair one. If you want things equal get a pair of Camels, or SPADs and stick crosses on one of them !
    It probably should be SPAD - Société Pour L'Aviation et ses Dérivés (Company for Aviation and its Derivatives).

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    And any player who refuses to play because he thinks "it's not fair!" simply isn't worth spending any time on.
    I don't know about anyone crying 'it's not fair', I hope I didn't imply that. Surely whiners are something that most people avoid, in games and usually in life. That's not what I was talking about. I play in a few different groups. None are groups that I set up and all include a variety of players. From heavy weight gamers to a couple war gamers, to Ticket to Ride, Code Names, Spendor and Dixit, etc. We all get together and pick what game and/or games we are going to play. I'm reasonably sure that most of the people in these groups would be less inclined to play a game they clearly have little hope of wining. Most play to win, though wining isn't why we get together. We get together to play. But if there's no hope in wining many would just rather play something else. I've been trying to introduce Wings of Glory at two of these gatherings. If the match is terribly one-sided I'm quite sure the next time I suggest it they'll prefer something that is a challenge for all players. I don't have the group of friend who play games that affords me the luxury of deciding which game the group plays. I have my input, but in all 'fairness', we all have our say.

  11. #11

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    With Boom cards in a deck there's always hope of winning.... and whining !

    "He is wise who watches"

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    With Boom cards in a deck there's always hope of winning.... and whining !
    Haha, how true

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    I was hoping get some insight before I played with newer players. I don't get the change to play to often. We prefer balanced games of historically accurate games. The best way to turn off casual gamers is to have one sided games. They quickly move on to something else they have a fair chance of winning regardless of how history played out.
    Personally, when I've been introducing WGF to new players at my local gaming club I tend to use the Fokker Dr.1 and Camel as they're very evenly matched and really fun close-in dogfighters. The SPAD XIII is a Boom and Zoom fighter which really needs altitude to bring out its strongest aspects (speed/rate of climb) while the Albatros D.Va is a bit of an everyman plane, neither rapidly climbing and fast enough to Boom and Zoom nor an especially manouevrable dogfighter. Games without altitude between the SPAD XIII and the Albatros D.Va run the risk of degenerating into head on Immelmann jousts.

    As others have said though it's going to depend as much on the players and their personal style. The most important thing is to keep it fun and not to penalise them for mistakes or overwhelm them with too many rules/too much complexity too fast. Another useful tip is you're more likely to have fun dogfights if you play two planes vs two rather than one on one.

    Have fun & good luck!

    Tom

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conall View Post
    [...] I tend to use the Fokker Dr.1 and Camel as they're very evenly matched and really fun close-in dogfighters. [...]

    The most important thing is to keep it fun and not to penalise them for mistakes or overwhelm them with too many rules/too much complexity too fast. Another useful tip is you're more likely to have fun dogfights if you play two planes vs two rather than one on one.
    Yep, we've played a couple of games at two of the groups I'm in. The head to head is where I usually start and yes, we've done the Fokker Dr.1 and Camel. Everyone loves the Fokker Dr.1, especially MvR's. No I haven't penalized them too much or used too many rules. I tend to be rather forgiving the first few games. Yes I've stayed away from 1v1 because all too often that turns into a game of reversals and is rather boring. After then are comfortable with flying and shooting we tend to prefer missions more which I feel changes the game dramatically and is far more fun.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise
    After then are comfortable with flying and shooting we tend to prefer missions more which I feel changes the game dramatically and is far more fun.
    My experiences exactly match yours here: assigned missions are much more fun & add a whole lot of variety and interest to the game.

    Though, the fighters in the game, as in rel life tend to get the glory (attention), so with most new players, I introduce the game with some well-balanced dogfight. The SPAD & Albatros D-Va are in fact, such a balance.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    With Boom cards in a deck there's always hope of winning.... and whining !
    You don't say

  17. #17

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    My Computer-Programmer SO often comments, "There are certain types of games Programmers should *not* be permitted to play, as they tend to mop the floor with non-programmer players"....

  18. #18

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    In any game where there is the range of possibilities from a single card causing anything from '0' damage to Total Destruction, all minor differences between protagonists pale into utter insignificance.

    Put aside any concerns about precise "game balance" and get in there and have fun!

    If players insist on an exact game balance, play SPAD vs SPAD, or Albatros DVa vs Albatros DVa.
    Alternatively, give them a chess set, and leave them to their mini-maxing and navel-gazing while you and your friends have FUN!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  19. #19

    Thumbs up

    Ken, one suggestion when introducing Wings to new players is to either remove the Boom card or state it causes half total damage points.
    Another option is to let the player "re spawn" in another Aircraft.

    As for the DVa Vs SPAD XIII I reckon they are a good match up.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    If players insist on an exact game balance, play SPAD vs SPAD, or Albatros DVa vs Albatros DVa.
    Alternatively, give them a chess set, and leave them to their mini-maxing and navel-gazing while you and your friends have FUN!
    Oh no! No one is looking for exact game balance and we don't want to play mirror matches. Where's the fun in that? We'll leave that to other games and enjoy the theme.

    I saw these in the Duel Pack and I have several of each. Since they came together I thought they would be good head to head and I thought I would double check asking everyone if the SPAD and Albatros DVa was reasonably matched against each other. Something for a fun game, that's all. Sorry if I gave the impression I'm catering to a bunch of whiners or point balance nuts, nothing could be further from truth in our group. Close is good enough.


    Thanks everyone for your great input and ideas. I'll add these two to our next head to head. Usually we use the Boom card and 1/2 points and if someone get's shot down too early they are allowed to rejoin from their side. We're a pretty easy going bunch, I even ignored an observer kill once since their mission would have been over too early. Haha, as it turned out that was the last plane on the board with the the opposing scouts and AAMGs already silenced. The newbies won, well with a little help from well timed and conveniently forgotten rules. Now one guy has emailed that at our next game night he wants to play again and try altitude. Whoo hoo! Maybe I'll be a little tougher on them next time. We'll see.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    My Computer-Programmer SO often comments, "There are certain types of games Programmers should *not* be permitted to play, as they tend to mop the floor with non-programmer players"....
    LOL now I'm curious which games your SO's is thinking. I need to switch to them so I can win sometimes.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    My Computer-Programmer SO often comments, "There are certain types of games Programmers should *not* be permitted to play, as they tend to mop the floor with non-programmer players"....
    does your SO friend realize that many games involve interactions with other people?

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    My Computer-Programmer SO often comments, "There are certain types of games Programmers should *not* be permitted to play, as they tend to mop the floor with non-programmer players"....
    What, games like "Find the DO Loop", or "Syntax Error Snap"?

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    What, games like "Find the DO Loop", or "Syntax Error Snap"?
    i'd like to see him play a 6 player game of roborally :P

  25. #25

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    I picked up the SPAD XIII vs Albatros D.Va duel pack recently. I note that the rules suggest that both the D.Va and DR.I match up against the N.28, Camel, SPAD XIII and, perhaps more surprisingly, Sopwith Triplane and 1 1/2 strutter.

    Though I already have the full rules and accessories and quite a lot of SPADs and Albatri already, I am aiming to run a largish game for a number of friends later in the year probably with a mix of French SPADs, British Camels, Albatri and a couple of Fokker Dr.I. These are contemporaneous and provide a bit of variety.

    I solo flew all of these four types 1 v 1 and 2 v 2 late last year as initial information gathering, using standard rules i.e. Without altitude. This seemed to work fine (though solo games have the drawback of reinforcing my own bias/lack of knowledge). I intend to do the same again over the next couple of months using altitude to gauge the difference. I will slowly introduce players to the rules prior to the Big Show.

    Edward

  26. #26

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    I just received an email from one of our players tonight asking me to bring Wings of Glory. This group has only played once in a 2v2. Maybe tonight we'll play a mission.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    LOL now I'm curious which games your SO's is thinking. I need to switch to them so I can win sometimes.
    As she puts it: "Any game where winning is best accomplished by seeing one's units as nothing but numbers, to be utilized optimally, and discarded the moment they are no longer useful" (this covers not a few Eurogames). Also, any game where one can "math out" which units' destruction will score the most points (this is where Richard Borg's _Civil War_ games fails quite so epically -- she figured out: "Shoot only at Infantry; it's the fastest way to generate Unit Loss Flags").

  28. #28

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    Name:  avions_003.jpg
Views: 227
Size:  31.9 KB If we are really going full pedantic S.P.A.D. was the correct name for the 5 different varieties of aircraft from the firm that saw service somewhere but most forms and documents tended to use either SPAD or Spad.

    Examples like the one above is from the best French website about French WW1 aircraft.

    The text of "SPAD FIGHTERS in action" by squadron/signal publications uses Spad.
    The text of "French Aviation" by Vital Perry uses Spad.

    There I looked it up.
    Last edited by john snelling; 04-27-2017 at 18:15.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post

    Thank you for your thoughts and opinions. Are they balanced.


    P.S. I know that many battles were not balanced. But in this game we'd like both sides to have an equal/balanced chance.
    P.P.S. Is it Spad or SPAD. I've seen both.
    SPAD XIII is better than Albatros D.V if you use altitude rules and you know your game -- SPAD XIII will climb faster, stay away, boom&zoom.
    Having said that, yes, they are balanced and good for newbies to play -- they have easy decks so newbies don't get overhelmed with too many maneuver cards, it will take a while for them to figure out how SPAD XIII could out match an Albatross D.V

    SPAD VII vs Albatros D.III is a closer match

    Anyway: if you want a very balanced and fun game for newbies I would go for Sopwith Camel vs Fokker Dr.I
    with these two they have 90º turns, ergo more options and more fun. If a newbie stands up from a table thinking that the game is about pulling imelmann turns (a conclusion you will probably arribe flying a SPAD of an Albatross just once) he or she would end up bored
    Last edited by Gallo Rojo; 04-29-2017 at 12:49.



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