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Thread: House rules for Bloody April

  1. #1

    Default House rules for Bloody April

    When the Albatros D.III came out years ago I was thrilled and even more so when other early 1917 planes came out.

    Bloody April was in my grasp, played some games with the guys and it was Bloody April in reverse. Only when the DH-2's, RE-8's and N17s were used did Bloody April seem possible. Finally one of the guyz told me to give it up.

    Over 120 books later and with ace abilities and cards came out did the puzzle that baffled me started to fit.

    The DH-4 used by the 55 Sqn that use to just speed away from the Alb D.III had a lower HP engine then the later models.
    Instead of the H deck use the K deck with B/B guns 17/Q1 to 18/Q2.

    The Bristol Fighter depicted in the game is the F2b not the F2a utilized in April of 1917.
    Instead of the S deck use the V deck with B/B guns 17/Q2 to 17/Q3 only around 52 were made.

    The Sopwith Triplane has already been discussed earlier in other posting.
    If it is with A guns use the D deck.

    Bloody April did get a little bit more Bloody.

    Not Bloody April
    The Albatros D.V the aircraft that MVR disdained damage would be 14. The D.Va would still be 15.

  2. #2

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    Our group (7pilots) played a Bloody April mission last Saturday with interesting results. The AAR will follow shortly...
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    When the Albatros D.III came out years ago I was thrilled and even more so when other early 1917 planes came out.

    Bloody April was in my grasp, played some games with the guys and it was Bloody April in reverse. Only when the DH-2's, RE-8's and N17s were used did Bloody April seem possible. Finally one of the guyz told me to give it up.

    Over 120 books later and with ace abilities and cards came out did the puzzle that baffled me started to fit.

    The DH-4 used by the 55 Sqn that use to just speed away from the Alb D.III had a lower HP engine then the later models.
    Instead of the H deck use the K deck with B/B guns 17/Q1 to 18/Q2.

    The Bristol Fighter depicted in the game is the F2b not the F2a utilized in April of 1917.
    Instead of the S deck use the V deck with B/B guns 17/Q2 to 17/Q3 only around 52 were made.

    The Sopwith Triplane has already been discussed earlier in other posting.
    If it is with A guns use the D deck.

    Bloody April did get a little bit more Bloody.

    Not Bloody April
    The Albatros D.V the aircraft that MVR disdained damage would be 14. The D.Va would still be 15.
    I fully approve of your approach of taking into account engine size. As you may be aware I have spent a far amount of time and postings attempting to judge the effect of the less powerful engines.

    But...part of the reason Bloody April was so bloody was there were a lot of obsolete planes like the DH2, Neiuport 17, RE8's, and the hopeless BE2's with novice pilots. This led to a vicious downwards circle where to replace loses, novice pilots were thrown into the meat grinder with less and less training.

    There were a few really good planes (like the Sopwith Tripe) flown by expert pilots but they were the exception not the rule.

    The Albatros DIII was a good plane (not a great plane but certainly not a dog) but it became iconic because it had great pilots facing poorly trained pilots sent on patrols deep into German territory in obsolete machines.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola Zee View Post
    I fully approve of your approach of taking into account engine size. As you may be aware I have spent a far amount of time and postings attempting to judge the effect of the less powerful engines.

    But...part of the reason Bloody April was so bloody was there were a lot of obsolete planes like the DH2, Neiuport 17, RE8's, and the hopeless BE2's with novice pilots. This led to a vicious downwards circle where to replace loses, novice pilots were thrown into the meat grinder with less and less training.

    There were a few really good planes (like the Sopwith Tripe) flown by expert pilots but they were the exception not the rule.

    The Albatros DIII was a good plane (not a great plane but certainly not a dog) but it became iconic because it had great pilots facing poorly trained pilots sent on patrols deep into German territory in obsolete machines.
    EXACTLY! What you said, Nicola! I really wish ARES would whip up some BE.2s (and FE.2s for that matter) ... maybe they figure nobody would buy them?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by BellMW54 View Post
    EXACTLY! What you said, Nicola! I really wish ARES would whip up some BE.2s (and FE.2s for that matter) ... maybe they figure nobody would buy them?
    Yes, I'm sure they figure a DH4 with A\B guns is more likely to sell than a BE2 with a restricted fire B gun and they'd be right. There's a secret inner munchkin power gamer in all of us!

    I very much approved of the optional card that came with the Sopwith 1 1/2 strutter that allowed the removal of the Immelman card. The card definitely helps if your preferred theatre is the Western Front and you want to re-create Bloody April.

  6. #6

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    For a good overview of Bloody April I recommend the book Bloody April by Peter Hart. For my tastes he's a little bit too much of an apologist for the deep offensive (or as I like to call it the deeply offensive) patrol strategy but he is an excellent scholar and it's good he puts the air war into a grand strategic context. Old 'boomer' Trenchard was not just sending wave after wave of his pilots to their deaths at a whim. There was method to his madness.

  7. #7

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    I have Bloody April by Hart and liked it quite a bit, but one thing that struck me as interesting was how few of the front-line squadrons participating in the Battle of Arras were actually equipped with the DH.2 scout. To whit, I couldn't find any, though I know earlier in the year (and of course, the end of the year prior vis-a-vis Lanoe Hawker, etc.) they'd been getting beaten up badly.

    Quoting Hart,

    The total British strength amassed along the front of the British First and Third Armies was some twenty-five Squadrons. In support of First Army was I Brigade RFC, comprising the First (Corps) Wing (2, 5, 10 and 16 Squadrons all equipped with BE2 variants) and the Tenth (Army) Wing (25 Squadron: FE2bs and FE2ds; 40 Squadron: Nieuport Scouts; 43 Squadron: Sopwith 1 ˝ Strutters; and 8 (Naval) Squadron RNAS: Sopwith Triplanes). The neighbouring Third Army was supported by III Brigade RFC, comprising the Twelfth (Corps) Wing (8, 12, and 13 Squadrons all equipped with BE2 variants; and 59 Squadron: RE8s) and the Thirteenth (Army) Wing (29, 60 and 6 (Naval) Squadrons: Nieuport Scouts; 11 Squadron: FE2bs; and 48 Squadron: Bristol Fighters). There was also the ultimate RFC reserve of the Ninth (Headquarters) Wing (19 Squadron: Spad VIIs; 27 Squadron: Martinsyde Scouts; 35 Squadron: Armstrong Whitworth FK8s; 55 Squadron: DH4s; 56 Squadron: SE5s; 57 Squadron: FE2ds; 66 Squadron: Sopwith Pups; and 70 Squadron: Sopwith 1 ˝ Strutters). Finally there was the night bombing force of 100 Squadron using FE2bs. In all approximately 365 serviceable aircraft in twenty-five squadrons could be deployed, of which 120 were single-seater scouts.

    To oppose this, the Germans had just 195 army cooperation and scout aircraft. Between Lille and Péronne –on the wider front –the British First, Third, Fifth and Fourth Armies faced the German Sixth and First Armies. In all the British had 41 squadrons and 754 aircraft, of which 385 were single-seater aircraft. The Germans had 264 aircraft, of which 114 were single-seater aircraft. It should be borne in mind that the main German air concentration of some 480 aircraft, including about 240 scouts, was directed against the French because they were fully aware of the imminent Nivelle offensive on the Aisne.
    I don't see any mention there of the DH.2, and it seems clear that the most plentiful scout for the British would be the Nieuport (presumably the N.11(?), N.16 and N.17/23). I'm guessing these Nieuports were primarily armed with a single overwing Lewis?

    The Sopwith Strutter and Triplane were obviously in attendance, but I'd suspect the Triplane would be the single gun variety as the two-gun version apparently gave up too much performance and was more of an experiment (?). A SPAD VII could be used as well, though they'd be quite a bit more limited as only one reserve squadron appears to have had them (19 Squadron).

    Same goes for the Bristol Fighter - only one squadron equipped, and they were (per the history) rookie pilots who got bloodied badly in their first sortie, quite famously, as they'd stuck to the "tried-and-true" formation doctrine developed for older 2 seaters. No Immelmann cards for those guys, right?!

    And clearly, a trip over to Shapeways would be justified to pick up sufficient BE.2, FE.2 and Pup aircraft to give a more well-rounded flavor. I suppose the RE.8 is a fine stand-in for the BE.2, though.

    On the German side, I'm thinking it's the Albatros D.II and D.III, maybe with some ace skills for extra flavor.

    I think the "blood" in Bloody April was predominantly shed by the two seater observation aircraft (i.e. BE2), much as it had been during the Fokker Scourge. That, plus the relative inexperience of British aircrews and the insistence on offensive action by British leadership seems to have been the deciding factors leading to the high British losses.

    Anyways, the above has been the "net/net" of my research in preparation for our own Bloody April -themed campaign beginning next month!
    Last edited by surfimp; 03-22-2017 at 11:33.

  8. #8

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    24 Squadron RFC and 32 Squadron RFC (both based near Arras) flew the DH.2 until May 1917 so you could certainly include DH.2s in the campaign.

    I have photographed two pages from Franks, Guest and Baileys' book 'Bloody April...Black September' that outlines the RFC's orbat on 1 April 1917. The table tells you the RFC Brigade and Wing to which each Squadron was attached, what aircraft they flew, where each squadron was based and which army corps they were assigned to support.

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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by BellMW54 View Post
    EXACTLY! What you said, Nicola! I really wish ARES would whip up some BE.2s (and FE.2s for that matter) ... maybe they figure nobody would buy them?
    I have had a couple of Fe2b. The red eagle one fell apart from overuse and had to be converted into a crash marker!
    The Fee is a versatile and fun aircraft to fly (if you're aggressive with it) the 2d with the fixed forward firing Lewis as well as the gunner's pintel-mounted gun would be really dangerous

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    I have Bloody April by Hart and liked it quite a bit, but one thing that struck me as interesting was how few of the front-line squadrons participating in the Battle of Arras were actually equipped with the DH.2 scout. To whit, I couldn't find any, though I know earlier in the year (and of course, the end of the year prior vis-a-vis Lanoe Hawker, etc.) they'd been getting beaten up badly.

    Quoting Hart,



    I don't see any mention there of the DH.2, and it seems clear that the most plentiful scout for the British would be the Nieuport (presumably the N.11(?), N.16 and N.17/23). I'm guessing these Nieuports were primarily armed with a single overwing Lewis?

    The Sopwith Strutter and Triplane were obviously in attendance, but I'd suspect the Triplane would be the single gun variety as the two-gun version apparently gave up too much performance and was more of an experiment (?). A SPAD VII could be used as well, though they'd be quite a bit more limited as only one reserve squadron appears to have had them (19 Squadron).

    Same goes for the Bristol Fighter - only one squadron equipped, and they were (per the history) rookie pilots who got bloodied badly in their first sortie, quite famously, as they'd stuck to the "tried-and-true" formation doctrine developed for older 2 seaters. No Immelmann cards for those guys, right?!

    And clearly, a trip over to Shapeways would be justified to pick up sufficient BE.2, FE.2 and Pup aircraft to give a more well-rounded flavor. I suppose the RE.8 is a fine stand-in for the BE.2, though.

    On the German side, I'm thinking it's the Albatros D.II and D.III, maybe with some ace skills for extra flavor.

    I think the "blood" in Bloody April was predominantly shed by the two seater observation aircraft (i.e. BE2), much as it had been during the Fokker Scourge. That, plus the relative inexperience of British aircrews and the insistence on offensive action by British leadership seems to have been the deciding factors leading to the high British losses.

    Anyways, the above has been the "net/net" of my research in preparation for our own Bloody April -themed campaign beginning next month!
    I'm not surprised the DH2 had [mostly] been replaced by April 1917. When I wrote that "there were a lot of obsolete planes like the DH2, Neiuport 17, RE8's, and the hopeless BE2's with novice pilots", I did not mean there was a lot of DH2's. What I was getting at was there was a motley mix of obsolete planes of various kinds. But, as alternative 'facts' get spread very fast on the internet, accuracy is important and you are right I should have left off the DH2 from the list and instead included planes like the Pup, Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter and so on.

    To accurately reflect the period, all the Neiuports, Spad VII's, Sopwith Tripes and so on should have one gun. I believe the Spad VII's engine would be the 150hp version - so add 1 to the Climb Counters. By Apirl 1917 the Sopwith Tripe would be the 130hp engine but it would still be one gun. The first two gun version did not appear until July 1917 - long after Bloody April.

    A typical scenario might be a group of RE8's with novice pilots protected by a small number of one-gun fighters like the Pup\Neuiport 17 ambushed by several Albatros DIII's with ace skills. The RE8 is a good stand in for the BE2 because even Trenchard was not foolish enough to frequently send his BE2's on the most dangerous missions deep into German territory.

    Good luck with your Bloody April themed campaign! By the sound of it you are well on top of things

    [Edit] Replaced all with mostly
    Last edited by Nicola Zee; 03-23-2017 at 01:24. Reason: Replaced all with mostly

  11. #11

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    Jasta locations for April 1917. The German Sixth Army held the line at Arras, and the following Jastas were deployed to cover that formation - Jasta 3, Jasta 4, Jasta 6, Jasta 11, Jasta 12, Jasta 27, Jasta 28, Jasta 30 and Jasta 33. With the exception of a few older Halberstadts and Albatros D.IIs the majority of these Jastas were fully equipped with the Albatros D.III from the start of the month.

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    The RFC losses at the hands of these experienced German Jastas flying their excellent Albatros D.IIIs were nothing short of disastrous. In just five days alone from 4 - 8 April 1917 the RFC lost 75 machines - as many as they had lost for all of October 1916. All the more incredible given that each of these Jastas could, even on their best days, only muster at the most seven aircraft. At the start of Bloody April the Sixth Army could call upon 42 fighting machines to hold back the RFC observation machines, which rose to 56 machines towards the end of the month.
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 03-23-2017 at 01:24.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlgyLacey View Post
    I have had a couple of Fe2b. The red eagle one fell apart from overuse and had to be converted into a crash marker!
    The Fee is a versatile and fun aircraft to fly (if you're aggressive with it) the 2d with the fixed forward firing Lewis as well as the gunner's pintel-mounted gun would be really dangerous
    I bought an excellent FE2 from Shapeways. It was missing two struts which I added but overall I was very pleased with it.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    24 Squadron RFC and 32 Squadron RFC (both based near Arras) flew the DH.2 until May 1917 so you could certainly include DH.2s in the campaign.

    I have photographed two pages from Franks, Guest and Baileys' book 'Bloody April...Black September' that outlines the RFC's orbat on 1 April 1917. The table tells you the RFC Brigade and Wing to which each Squadron was attached, what aircraft they flew, where each squadron was based and which army corps they were assigned to support.
    ...
    A big thanks for doing this. It is extremely helpful when people go to the trouble of posting source material like this.

  14. #14

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    From the ORBAT below you could create a table for German players of likely RFC scout opponents for random generation by d12 (dice, I know, make numbered chits or cards if you like).

    SPAD VIII 1
    Sopwith Triplane 2-3
    Airco DH.2 4-5
    Sopwith Pup 6-8
    Nieuport 17 9-12

    If you only want to include official aircraft delete the Pups and add the Bristol F2A for a d10 result:

    SPAD VIII 1
    Bristol F2A 2
    Sopwith Triplane 3-4
    Airco DH.2 5-6
    Nieuport 17 7-10



    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    24 Squadron RFC and 32 Squadron RFC (both based near Arras) flew the DH.2 until May 1917 so you could certainly include DH.2s in the campaign.

    I have photographed two pages from Franks, Guest and Baileys' book 'Bloody April...Black September' that outlines the RFC's orbat on 1 April 1917. The table tells you the RFC Brigade and Wing to which each Squadron was attached, what aircraft they flew, where each squadron was based and which army corps they were assigned to support.

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  15. #15

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    Some starting numbers of Br aircraft Sqns and notable pilots assigned. N is for Naval
    1N Triplane x 18, Dallas, Gerrad, Minifie, Ridley
    2 Be2 x 21
    3N Pups x 18, Rochford, Fall, Whealy, Armstrong, Beamish, Breadner, Carter, Glen, Pierce
    5 Be2 x 14
    6N N17bis x 16
    8N Triplane x 18, Little, Compston, Booker, Arnold
    8 Be2 x 24
    10 Be2 x 19
    11 Fe2b x18
    12 Be2 x 24
    13 Be2 x 24
    15 Be2 x 18
    16 Be2 x 24
    19 Spad VII x 18
    25 Fe2b/2d x 18, Leith/Emsden
    29 DH2/N17 x 16
    32 DH2 x 18
    35 AWFK x 18
    40 Fe8/N17 x 17, Monnock (N17), Benbow (Fe8), Cudemore (N17), Godfrey (N17), Napier (N17)
    43 Sop. Strutter x 16, Balfour/Giles
    48 BF2a x 18, Middleton/Claye, Holliday/Wall, Wilkerson/Allen, (negative notable Robinson/Warburton)
    55 DH4 x18
    56 SE5 x 13, Ball, Bowman, Crowe, Hoidge, Maxwell, Rhys-David, Barlow, Broadberry, Lewis
    57 Fe2d x 19
    59 Re8 x 21
    60 N17 x 18, Bishop, Caldwell, Moesworth
    66 Pup x 18, Andrews
    70 Sop. Strutter x18
    Last edited by john snelling; 03-23-2017 at 08:39.

  16. #16

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    No numbers for the Germans just some notables
    JB (2) Voss, Bernert,
    J3 Schmidt, Menckoff
    J4 Frankl
    J5 Gontermann, Koennecke, Mai, Theiller, Nathanael, Schneider
    J7 Manschott
    J11 MvR, Wolff, Schaefer, Allmenroeder, LvR, Festner
    J12 Tutschek

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Some starting numbers of Br aircraft Sqns and notable pilots assigned. N is for Naval
    1N Triplane x 18, Dallas, Gerrad, Minifie, Ridley
    2 Be2 x 21
    3N Pups x 18, Rochford, Fall, Whealy, Armstrong, Beamish, Breadner, Carter, Glen, Pierce
    5 Be2 x 14
    6N N17bis x 16
    8N Triplane x 18, Little, Compston, Booker, Arnold
    8 Be2 x 24
    10 Be2 x 19
    11 Fe2b x18
    12 Be2 x 24
    13 Be2 x 24
    15 Be2 x 18
    16 Be2 x 24
    19 Spad VII x 18
    25 Fe2b/2d x 18, Leith/Emsden
    29 DH2/N17 x 16
    32 DH2 x 18
    35 AWFK x 18
    40 Fe8/N17 x 17, Monnock (N17), Benbow (Fe8), Cudemore (N17), Godfrey (N17), Napier (N17)
    43 Sop. Strutter x 16, Balfour/Giles
    48 BF2a x 18, Middleton/Claye, Holliday/Wall, Wilkerson/Allen, (negative notable Robinson/Warburton)
    55 DH4 x18
    56 SE5 x 13, Ball, Bowman, Crowe, Hoidge, Maxwell, Rhys-David, Barlow, Broadberry, Lewis
    57 Fe2d x 19
    59 Re8 x 21
    60 N17 x 18, Bishop, Caldwell, Moesworth
    66 Pup x 18, Andrews
    70 Sop. Strutter x18
    Very interesting. I knew there were a lot of BE2's but I had not realised how many!
    There's more DH2's than I thought.

  18. #18

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    This thread is so helpful, thank you all for contributing!!

  19. #19

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    I just posted this in Andy's AAR but it should be included here too.
    The Red Baron scored 21 kills in this month alone at the controls of his Albatros D.III(2253/17) - That's just over a quarter of his total ! Look at the different types he downed (I highlighted those that are nexus/Ares models that might be used, maybe with some changes) and note only four of them are single seat scouts !
    B.E.2d (5841)
    Sopwith 1˝ Strutter (A2401)
    F.E.2d (A6382)
    Bristol F.2a (A3340)
    Bristol F.2a (A3343)
    Nieuport 17 (A6645)
    Sopwith 1˝ Strutter (A2406)
    B.E.2g (A2815)
    B.E.2d (2501)
    R.E.8 (A3190)
    F.E.2b (A831)
    F.E.2b (4997)
    Nieuport 17 (A6796)
    B.E.2e (3156)
    F.E.2b (7020)
    B.E.2f (A3168)
    B.E.2e (7221)
    SPAD VII (B1573)
    F.E.2b (4898)
    B.E.2e (2738)
    Sopwith Triplane (N5463)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...von_Richthofen

    Might I also suggest that you play limited ammo for the Lewis guns - 6 phases of firing works well, with a 3 phase reload - might give an opening to the Albatrii to slip in for an uncontested attack !
    Last edited by flash; 03-24-2017 at 04:39.

    "He is wise who watches"

  20. #20

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    Flash, I forgot about the limited ammo house rules!

  21. #21

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    You're welcome John, so long as you don't mind tracking ammo usage it might make a difference somewhere along the line.

    "He is wise who watches"

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    You're welcome John, so long as you don't mind tracking ammo usage it might make a difference somewhere along the line.
    I used plastic poker chips before. Very easy, if you want to shoot throw one in, when you run out your 6 allotted chips time to reload.
    Last edited by john snelling; 03-25-2017 at 07:11.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlgyLacey View Post
    I have had a couple of Fe2b. The red eagle one fell apart from overuse and had to be converted into a crash marker!
    The Fee is a versatile and fun aircraft to fly (if you're aggressive with it) the 2d with the fixed forward firing Lewis as well as the gunner's pintel-mounted gun would be really dangerous
    From Shapeways? What maneuver decks do you use?

  24. #24

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    The Unofficial Stats show the FE2b & d using a G deck, 14 damage pts, Alt 8, climb 6 Mike.

    "He is wise who watches"

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I just posted this in Andy's AAR but it should be included here too.
    The Red Baron scored 21 kills in this month alone at the controls of his Albatros D.III(2253/17) - That's just over a quarter of his total ! Look at the different types he downed (I highlighted those that are nexus/Ares models that might be used, maybe with some changes) and note only four of them are single seat scouts !
    EXACTLY...and nearly HALF of that total is obsolescent BE.2s and FE.2s! THAT's what made "Bloody April" so bloody...aaaannnnnnd...THAT'S a pretty fair representation of the overall percentage of the Red Baron's collection of confirmed kills! Generally, most of the uninformed public think of him as chivalrously dueling against enemy aces flying scouts.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The Unofficial Stats show the FE2b & d using a G deck, 14 damage pts, Alt 8, climb 6 Mike.
    Thanks Dave.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by BellMW54 View Post
    EXACTLY...and nearly HALF of that total is obsolescent BE.2s and FE.2s! THAT's what made "Bloody April" so bloody...aaaannnnnnd...THAT'S a pretty fair representation of the overall percentage of the Red Baron's collection of confirmed kills! Generally, most of the uninformed public think of him as chivalrously dueling against enemy aces flying scouts.
    The Rittmeister made no secret of the fact that the destruction of enemy 'artillery flyers' as he called observation aircraft should be the main priority of any Jagdflieger. Besides, with 15 squadrons of BE.2s on the Arras front it was the most numerous type in service with the RFC at the time.

  28. #28

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    I like the tangent some went on but, I was trying to use WOG made aircraft and not shapeways. Then I started looking at the similarities of the RE8 and the BE2 heck it is just a game. I now have BE2s.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by BellMW54 View Post
    Generally, most of the uninformed public think of him as chivalrously dueling against enemy aces flying scouts.
    In fairness, most of the public - both now and then - really only knew about these "chivalrous" flying aces, because they were the only ones who got mentioned by name in the press.

    ‘A fighter pilot notching up five victories can have his name broadcast to the world. But a pilot completing 100 bombing raids, 200 spotting missions or 300 reconnaissance flights can only be identified by his initials,’ complained Jacques Mortane. ‘Our pilots are all part of the same service and they cannot understand why some are entitled to publicity while others have to remain anonymous. There is simply no justification for it…. By any yardstick the bomber pilot is a hero…. He carries tons of explosives in a plane most likely to be heavy, inadequately armed, difficult to manoeuvre and incapable of defending itself. He never deviates for a second from the direct route to the target, scorning guns and planes alike, aware of the terrible death awaiting him if he falls victim to a successful attack. Yet still he carries on because it is his duty to do so.’

    Sumner, Ian. Kings of the Air: French Aces and Airmen of the Great War

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    The Rittmeister made no secret of the fact that the destruction of enemy 'artillery flyers' as he called observation aircraft should be the main priority of any Jagdflieger. Besides, with 15 squadrons of BE.2s on the Arras front it was the most numerous type in service with the RFC at the time.
    I certainly meant no slight toward Richthofen. I was merely pointing out what most of his little silver trophies memorialize. No, he knew what he and his fliers were about and he was GOOD at it...VERY good at it!

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    In fairness, most of the public - both now and then - really only knew about these "chivalrous" flying aces, because they were the only ones who got mentioned by name in the press.
    Fully understood and appreciated, Steve. Thanks for sharing Mortane's view on the subject. It hits the nail squarely on the head! This is why we play more mission-oriented scenarios using supported two-seaters than mere dogfights.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by BellMW54 View Post
    Fully understood and appreciated, Steve. Thanks for sharing Mortane's view on the subject. It hits the nail squarely on the head! This is why we play more mission-oriented scenarios using supported two-seaters than mere dogfights.
    It's quite illuminating to learn about the exploits and day-to-day activities of the unsung heroes, isn't it? When I was young, everything I knew about WWI aviation was encapsulated in dogfights between the Fokker Dr.1 and the Sopwith Camel (aka the "Snoopy Theory of WWI Flying Aces"). It was only later, after reading some actual history books, that I came to appreciate how tremendously important aircraft actually were to the war effort - except, the important aircraft were not the scouts! They were the lowly two seaters like the BE.2!

    On the eve of the Bloody April centenary, it's quite good to take a step back and appreciate the sacrifice those pilots made. If anything, I greatly appreciate that our game systems allow us a tiny sliver of practical insight into what the pilots had to deal with.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    ...

    The Sopwith Triplane has already been discussed earlier in other posting.
    If it is with A guns use the D deck.

    ...
    The twin-gunned Triplane was up-engined, therefore should use the same deck as any Triplane. Perhaps an increase of climb counters by one over 10,000 ft.

    Only two pilots were recorded as flying the plane in combat. It should only appear for two-three weeks in July-August of 1917, if flying No. 10 RNA Squadron (transitioned to Camels in late August), and could have flown in No. 1 RNA Squadron from mid-July. No. 1 Squadron was the last squadron to transition to Camels, doing it in December, but received all remaining Triplanes from No. 10 when it transitioned in August. So, although not documented, it is possible two twin-gunned Triplanes could have flown together from September to December.

    So, as pointed out above, not used in April. Although Collishaw was transfered to No. 10 in April, the squadron was employed on the coast at that time, and only transfered to the front in May. That was the start of the Black Flight, so even my single-gunned Collishaw plane (in fact, my entire repainted Black Flight) would not have participated in this campaign.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-27-2017 at 08:45.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I like the tangent some went on but, I was trying to use WOG made aircraft and not shapeways. Then I started looking at the similarities of the RE8 and the BE2 heck it is just a game. I now have BE2s.
    I think that might just solve some of my issues ...

  35. #35

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    The Triplane that was MvR's last victory in April was from Naval 8 if that helps anyone. They would have had single a Vickers.

    "He is wise who watches"

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The Triplane that was MvR's last victory in April was from Naval 8 if that helps anyone. They would have had single a Vickers.
    Inside the Victories of Manfred von Richthofen, Volume Two indicates his 79th and 80th were Camels from No. 3 Squadron (D6439 and B7393)

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Inside the Victories of Manfred von Richthofen, Volume Two indicates his 79th and 80th were Camels from No. 3 Squadron (D6439 and B7393)


    Indeed they were but Flt. Sub-Lt Albert Edward Cuzner's Tripe was his 52nd, and final, victory in April 1917.

    "He is wise who watches"

  38. #38

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by BellMW54 View Post
    EXACTLY...and nearly HALF of that total is obsolescent BE.2s and FE.2s! THAT's what made "Bloody April" so bloody...aaaannnnnnd...THAT'S a pretty fair representation of the overall percentage of the Red Baron's collection of confirmed kills! Generally, most of the uninformed public think of him as chivalrously dueling against enemy aces flying scouts.
    If you think that's crazy, consider that Kurt Wolff scored 22 of his 33 kills in April 1917. 66%!

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    The Rittmeister made no secret of the fact that the destruction of enemy 'artillery flyers' as he called observation aircraft should be the main priority of any Jagdflieger. Besides, with 15 squadrons of BE.2s on the Arras front it was the most numerous type in service with the RFC at the time.
    Which was absolutely the right call - I'm reading Peter Hart's Bloody April (mentioned earlier in the thread) right now, and I never fully realized the significance of the role RFC observation planes played at that stage of the war. The casualties were enormous but the intelligence gained really was instrumental to the success of the British artillery and infantry in the opening days of the Battle of Arras.

    I doubt all German pilots had the same sense of the "big picture" that Richthofen had, but no doubt almost all preferred to earn victories over relatively helpless two-seaters than deadly scouts.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by horsepyre View Post
    Which was absolutely the right call - I'm reading Peter Hart's Bloody April (mentioned earlier in the thread) right now, and I never fully realized the significance of the role RFC observation planes played at that stage of the war. The casualties were enormous but the intelligence gained really was instrumental to the success of the British artillery and infantry in the opening days of the Battle of Arras.

    I doubt all German pilots had the same sense of the "big picture" that Richthofen had, but no doubt almost all preferred to earn victories over relatively helpless two-seaters than deadly scouts.
    I believe some fighter pilots would fight any one at anytime, others always fought from an advantage. From my reading, I got the sense of fighter pilots were trying to save the lives of their fellow soldiers by shooting down all the observation aircraft they possibly could. Observation planes meant accurate artillery bombardments.



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