B-25 Mitchell firing arcs?
Looking at the WGS unofficial aircraft V1-2.0 data I see the B-25 Mitchell deflects the gunnery data to the gunnery arcs file. There is no mention of the B-25 in that file. Is this omission a mistake or was it forgotten and not completed? Just curious as there are many versions of the B-25 and I'm working on scenarios including B-25s.
Peter,
There is an official card for this plane, therefore, no need to discuss in Unofficial Stats?
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
I have both models of the B-25 but there are many more versions. A, B(official), C(official), D, G, H & J. Unofficial list actually has 3 x C and one C/D. Dorsal turret changed position.
I guess I can figure them out myself if not already done.
Yup, and the firing arcs and gun positions are a nightmare, if you are looking at cards (cause there are two, and each is complicated...)Originally Posted by Teaticket
B-25J-NC
Follow-on production at Kansas city, the B-25J, could be called a cross between the B-25D and the B-25H. It had a transparent nose, but many of the delivered aircraft were modified to have a strafer nose (J2). Most of its 14–18 machine guns were forward-facing for strafing missions, including the two guns of the forward-located dorsal turret.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
At least they are not like the B-17 of He111! Upgunned B-25s mostly had extra fixed forward firing weapons, be it cannon(s) or lots of MGs. Dorsal turret, R&L waist and tail aren't too bad if the forward are fixed.
So.... What version(s) were you looking for?
B-25H:
Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-09-2017 at 13:10.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
H is the one. 8 forward MGs, 2 in dorsal turret, 2 in tail and 1 R & L waist. So I'm looking at forward firing B B B B, Turret B, tail B, waist A / A for short range.
A's for long? I think at long the turret can fire forward to lower but not at close range.
i need one for this bad boy.
8 forward firing .50s, top turret, ventral turret (yes i know they had removed them by this time. call it a field mod), waist guns, tail guns. oh and forward firing 75 mm gun.
Adding in the 75mm gun as if it wasn't a kick ass already! I've read a little about those, and don't forget the parafrags, ouch! As low level surface attack planes in the Pacific these bad boys made a name for themselves.i need one for this bad boy.
8 forward firing .50s, top turret, ventral turret (yes i know they had removed them by this time. call it a field mod), waist guns, tail guns. oh and forward firing 75 mm gun.
Last edited by Teaticket; 03-09-2017 at 20:21.
ooooohhh parafrags!!!! forgot about them. talk about icing on the cake!!!!
The elves reminded me we had a few of these somewhere . . .
They used up a box of Merit models . . .
i need one for this bad boy.
8 forward firing .50s, top turret, ventral turret (yes i know they had removed them by this time. call it a field mod), waist guns, tail guns. oh and forward firing 75 mm gun.The 75mm and the Parafrags would not be usable in air combat, so I'm not inclined to include them on the Plane Card. It will be cluttered enough.
However... Equipment Cards (IE: WGF Equipment Cards - 37mm Cannon), anyone? I just need some rules to throw on them.
For all the above, don't make me look up the units and crews, please.The elves reminded me we had a few of these somewhere . . .
They used up a box of Merit models . . .
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
No worries Mike, they will likely never see the battle mats, they are in boxes in deep storage as are most of my minis . . . haven't played a game now in 3 years, just having fun making them . . .
Last edited by clipper1801; 03-10-2017 at 16:52.
Didn't the 75mm replace some of the .50 cals, instead of supplementing them?
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
[Edit: Now No. 1 arc is equal to the Beaufighter forward firing arc]
Management Card to follow...
Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-13-2017 at 09:18.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
[QUOTE=OldGuy59;437781]The 75mm and the Parafrags would not be usable in air combat, so I'm not inclined to include them on the Plane Card. It will be cluttered enough.
the parafrags would definitely be superfluous, but the whole point of a gun nose b25 is for ground attack or anti shipping missions so the 75mm gun arc would be handy for sinking those jap transports!
ps mines basically generic so just to have something call it lt minnick, 76th bomb sqrdn (hence the red, white and blue patriotic scheme) 5th airforce
Last edited by milcoll73; 03-10-2017 at 17:03.
Done! Whew!
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Beautiful, thanks Mike!
[QUOTE=milcoll73;437865]Phillip, you could do something like what ARES did with the 109Ks, have a small note card when you use the 75. It could have the details of what the 75 does and how many 50 cals you lose. At some point I'll be doing something like this as my Pacific forces grow.
actually the other way around. the 1st gun noses had 4 .50s. gun packs were addes to the sides and a 75mm added. later the 75mm was deleted (on some models) and 4 more .50s were added.
I'll have to study up on the B-25. So many versions and modifications!
Need to figure out what kind of damage this would do...
There could be alternate cards, with different options. IE: replacing the 75mm cannon with 4 Mgs. This would indicate the extra BB/B damage available for the modified weapons.
Edit: Amended with range and damage
Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-10-2017 at 23:06.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Oooooo, very nice!
[QUOTE=Teaticket;437871]
you dont actually loose any .50s. the gun noses still had 4 in the nose compartment and 2 or 4 in cheek packs. plus the top turret could be slaved to the pilots firing control as if he didnt already have enough forward firing capability!!!!!
and they even used it as a night fighter (not entirely succesful but doable). such a versatile aircraft!!!!
sweet!!!!! thank you very much!!!! i was thinking since D counters represent (among other things) 37mm cannon and since 75mm is just over twice this maybe double what D cannoned aircraft do?
Awesome work Mike!
New card, amended previous card with range and damage. So, the 75mm Cannon normally had 21 rounds available, and all the forward firing MGs had 400 rounds each, in either the 75mm version (4 MGs), or the J2 (8 MGs).
So, this means that you will nearly empty out the B Damage Chit bin each time you open up with this thing? Don't forget the No. 2 Dorsal Turret, as it can add in its damage, too. Seven, count'em '7', B damage chits at short range.
There is some mention of a radar ranging version for the 75mm Cannon, with tracking out to 2000+ yards, just for accuracy.
And, if all the MGs weren't enough, there was the option of 8 HVARs on some planes? Mostly J models, I think.
PS: Just found this: Load Plan for B-25B - Pending Norh Africa Battle (Dec 6th 2014) Rockets Away!
Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-10-2017 at 23:31.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
I wouldn't think you could use the dorsal turret vs a ground target at close range, but thats only my view of it.
Peter, that may be. And thinking it through, perhaps the braver pilots would get down low enough to make use of the dorsal turret on ground targets. If you can get any of the guns on target (nose and cheek mounts) then the dorsal could add into the shot. Or, it could be a very high angle dive?
Anyway, I was thinking of any poor aerial target that was silly enough to get in front of this monster. But, it was possible to slave the dorsal turret to the pilot for firing, so 7 B damage chits could be delivered to a target, if any of them could hit.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Just a few thoughts on the discussion (oh, Mike; I love the equipment cards. I have thoughts for a whole bunch of them).
As mentioned, the 75mm would be useless in AtA combat; AtG sure, though I'm stalled on the rules I was working on a couple years ago (sorry Nightbomber).
The fixed 50cal would be fine for air combat, but since the B-25 wasn't a fighter, and since they were mostly used in formation flying, I would only allow them to shoot a straight line forward. If you get the target's base, it draws damage (and probably gets shredded ). Optionally (and optimistically), you could give them a half sized arc.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Karl, I agree with the firing in a straight line. I think all planes that were ground attack planes should have this restriction for AtA fire.
Just a few thoughts on the discussion (oh, Mike; I love the equipment cards. I have thoughts for a whole bunch of them
As mentioned, the 75mm would be useless in AtA combat; AtG sure, though I'm stalled on the rules I was working on a couple years ago (sorry Nightbomber
The fixed 50cal would be fine for air combat, but since the B-25 wasn't a fighter, and since they were mostly used in formation flying, I would only allow them to shoot a straight line forward. If you get the target's base, it draws damage (and probably gets shredded ). Optionally (and optimistically), you could give them a half sized arc.
KarlKarl,
I have a bunch of ideas for more equipment cards, too. I'm trying to wrap my brain around the FFARs, HVARs, and R-3s. A-26s, P-47s, Typhoons, oh my!
As to limiting the forward arc on this plane. What? Why?
If you are going to limit this plane, why not all the other fixed-gun aircraft? Why the inconsistency for this one? Just cause it has 14 forward firing weapons? I don't follow the thought process. P-47 Thunderbolts and Typhoons are included as ground attack aircraft, are they not?
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
OK, when you look at fixed forward guns on bombers, they are primarily used for strafing. The pilots are just not trained for air combat (fighter style) and the planes aren't as maneuverable as fighters. The big reason we have firing arcs for forward fixed guns is that the movement system is digital, and a coarse one at that. Other air combat games handle this similarly. The arcs allow for the small aiming adjustments of the fighter. But bombers don't have the maneuverability that fighters do, so the can't make those adjustments, at least not as quickly. If a B-25 was to shoot at a enemy fighter with the fixed guns, it would be a momentary: "Dang; he's in my sights!" shot.
Now, when you are using such planes as heavy fighters, like the A-20s and Ju-88 nightfighters, there you have a case for a firing arc. You also have a case for a half-sized arc, just from the maneuverability issue. But since you should be just shooting at heavy bombers, it would even out. If you're targeting a fighter, a half-sized arc would be a good house rule, if you like the chrome
As for heavier cannon, the RoF alone makes them unsuitable for AtA firing. The 37mm German guns (Stukas) and 40mm British (Hurricanes) clock in at 100-120 rpm, while the Hispano 20mm
(Spitfires et al) are 700 rpm. The P-39 Aircobras 37mm was used against planes, but was not good at it, with a low RoF and MV. However, it's in the game as the D deck, so can represent the
low end of usable. Note: cannon in WGS is a several thread discussion
As for equipment cards, I was thinking of R (field mod) and U (factory mod) kits for various German planes
Certainly, other nations had such accessories.
My thoughts (and getting sleepy).
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Karl,
I'm not likely to be using this aircraft for any purpose, let alone AtG. And as to whether the 75mm gun was used in air combat, well, that seems pretty well documented as a No.
However, your evaluation of the plane's lack of maneuverability as it affects the firing arc is, IMHO, flawed. I thought that the maneuverability of any plane in this game was established by its maneuver deck. A given plane's ability to get guns on target, especially for a bomber, is already crippled by the lack of maneuver options. So, you want to heap further debilitation on a given plane by restricting its firing arc even more?
I go by the fact that almost all planes have fixed forward guns, and by that very design, every one of them should only be able to fire directly ahead, using the range ruler as the firing arc. But, the game designer has decided that it was too restrictive to do that. He sites various reasons for this, including the fixed nature of the maneuver deck cards, and that planes could use yaw to aim. This is the same for all planes, regardless of the speed or nimbleness of the aircraft in question.
So, I go back to the question of consistency. Are any other planes to be inhibited by yet more restrictions than intended by the designer, and if so, shouldn't they all be so restricted?
How you decide to rule on this is up to you, and you are free to house rule anything you want. I can redo the B-26 firing arcs to suit, but should not we redo every other bomber card, for consistency, too?
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Given that almost all forward guns on multi-engine bombers are flexible mounts, then no.
Point of fact, my personal preference is that if the fixed guns are historically used for strafing, as with the B-25 and B-26s, then they should not be used for shooting at enemy planes.
As I said, because of both pilot training and inherent maneuverability of the planes. The decks do describe the possible maneuvers (within the game engine), but you have to admit it's harder to make those
10-15 degree adjustments to line up fixed guns with a B-25 than it is with a P-51 or Bf-109.
Now, if a Zero or Fw-190 pilot wanted to go head to head with one of these strafers, then they would get what they deserve
Therefor, the straight ahead firing arc. Because you know that if the guns are pointing at the enemy, a gamer will shoot, no matter how improbable the chance to hit.
That comes back to the heavy fighters, like the Ju.88 and A-20. While they did engage in AtA combat, their targets were heavy bombers, flying straight and level.
Anytime they were engaged by single engine fighters, it result was one-sided. In fact, if a target bomber sighted them on approach (night fighting), and made evasive maneuvers, it would almost always get away. While this was often a matter of visibility, I submit that it was also an impaired ability to effectively engage a maneuvering opponent.
As for the designers intent, we are breaking new ground here. The game is designed for fighter combat. Bombers added later, and all of their guns were flexible mountings.
I feel this is a reasonable interpretation of what the game is trying to present. As with all house rules, it is up to the players to decide if they use them or not.
If the players want to play a strictly RaW game, then the full front arcs should be use. Just don't be surprised by ahistorical results.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
yes the b-25 gun nose was used for strafing but the b-25 was also used as an interim nightfighter until the p-61 came online. it wasnt a particularly good nightfighter but it was used as such. yes the b-25 was in no way a fighter aircraft but it was fairly maneuverable for a 2 engine bomber. i think it should have a front firing arc. doesnt the beaufighter have fixed forward guns? it has a firing arc. i realize the beaufighter is more maneuverable than the b-25 but its not maneuverable as its single engine fighter aircraft brethren yet it has a firing arc.
I was also going by the firing arcs on Beaufighters and Bf-110s which have wide forward arcs, like P-47s and Typhoons, not only considering forward turrets like on other bombers. So, I don't feel we are anywhere outside of the designers intent in this discussion.
And just because bombers were flown straight and level on bombing runs, while heavily ladened with fuel and bombs, doesn't mean they couldn't fly very well with no bombs and half a fuel load over enemy territory. Have you read Charlie Brown's account of taking on Bf-109s and FW-190s over Germany in a shot-up B-17? Read "A Higher Call".
PS: Bomb and/or drop-tank laden fighters? Why do they drop them prior to attempting dogfights? Same for bombers dropping their loads before attempting to run, I suspect.
PPS: Plane Card above now revised with the same forward angle of fire as the Beaufighter.
Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-13-2017 at 09:19.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Great work on the specialist plane and equipment cards, Mike!
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