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Thread: "Gentlemen, choose your weapons..." (favorite dueling planes)

  1. #1

    Default "Gentlemen, choose your weapons..." (favorite dueling planes)

    I spent a few wonderful hours over the weekend flying some duels against my son (a whip-smart 12 year old), using our new Siemens-Schuckert D.III vs a Sopwith Camel. It was a great match up and led to lots of exciting moments that really brought home again to me how much fun Wings of Glory is a system, whether you're playing a 1v1 duel or a many-vs-many scenario.

    There are so many neat matchups that can be made, both historical and ahistorical... there are classic "balanced" matchups like between the Camel and the Dr.1, but then there are opportunities to try all sorts of other combinations as well, sometimes with surprising results for all parties!

    Some of my most memorable duels..

    SPAD XIII vs Fokker Dr.1
    The SPAD punished the Dr.1's lack of speed with blistering high speed hit-and-run tactics, denying the Dr.1 its turning advantage

    Nieuport 11 vs Albatros D.Va
    A tough one - the N.11 had to fly very carefully but was actually able to win a couple times!

    Nieuport 28 vs Fokker D.VII
    The N.28 as represented in WoG is actually quite capable and a tremendous joy to play... and the D.VII is of course completely awesome. Great fights!

    What are your favorite planes to duel with?

  2. #2

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    I was wondering how the Fokker Dr1 fared against the SPAD XIII. Looking at the points list they do compare, but the SPAD is so much faster as you noted. Thanks,

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    I was wondering how the Fokker Dr1 fared against the SPAD XIII. Looking at the points list they do compare, but the SPAD is so much faster as you noted. Thanks,
    It's all down to how you use them! But the combination of speed and greater hitpoints gives the SPAD the possibility of an advantage, though in fairness it can devolve to quite a lot of head-on passes and Immelmanns depending on the circumstances (and creativity / deviousness of the pilots involved). The trick, as always, is to line up your shots while denying your opponent their own. It's a great puzzle for both parties!

  4. #4

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    I'll fly anything!

    As you rightly said, it's all down to how you use them!

    Personally, I don't fly duels as such; the gamers I play with all prefer furballs. We do, however, fly squadrons against each other, so different combat types do meet up (just not in pairs!).
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  5. #5

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    Furballs are great fun, no doubt, and from my reading were apparently far more common in the mid and later stages of the war, when there were simply quite a few more aircraft flying for all nations than in 1914 and 1915.

    With that said - I love a good duel, it turns WoG into something of a gridless chess match that I find quite addicting and fun! Plus it doesn't take up much space, at least if you're playing with turnfighters like the Camel, Dr.1, S-S D.III, etc.

  6. #6

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    Good post. Maybe mix and match might also depend on the mission type. For example the Ufag is very fast and good for recon. You would have to play a fast plane in opposition in order to catch it. If it was an artillery spotting mission or ground support then there might be some reluctance to run for home thus giving slower enemies a chance.

    So maybe Ufag and Bristol F2B or Camel depending on what that Ufag was doing.

  7. #7

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    Like Tim I prefer flight vs flight engagements, but some good match-ups with official aircraft are:

    Fokker D.VII vs SE.5a
    Siemens Schuckert Werke D.III vs Nieuport 28
    Aviatik Berg D.I vs Hanriot HD.1
    Phönix D.I vs SPAD XIII
    Albatros D.II vs SPAD VII
    Albatros D.III vs Sopwith Triplane
    Halberstadt D.II vs Nieuport 17
    Fokker E.III vs Morane Saulnier N

  8. #8

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    Our club plays a campaign and we get dealt planes per the time period we are playing. We will never play an Eindecker against an SE5A or any other extreme difference that the period would not dictate. With that said, I have been "forced" to play a large variety of planes and through this I have learned what to do and what NOT to do. When I got the Spad for the first time I was disappointed at its poor, wide turns, but learned how to fly the plane effectively. This happened with other aircraft also. With this course of Play, I really cannot say what I prefer because each plane has it's on nuance.

  9. #9

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    Spad XIII v Fokker Dr.1 is like a bull fight with the SPAD as the bull. The Fokker must use its sideslips and tight turns to avoid being hit itself and score hits on the SPAD to gradually wear it down. It is not easy.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Spad XIII v Fokker Dr.1 is like a bull fight with the SPAD as the bull. The Fokker must use its sideslips and tight turns to avoid being hit itself and score hits on the SPAD to gradually wear it down. It is not easy.
    This is an excellent description! And I agree, if the SPAD pilot knows what he or she is doing, it's going to be a tough one for the Dr.1 to emerge victorious from.

    My son and I had another couple of great dogfights tonight:

    Phönix D.1 vs Hanriot HD.1
    The nimble Hanriot was a handful for the Phönix, whose lack of speed and maneuverability saw it literally have circles flown around it. A few lucky shots kept the matchup interesting, but the outcome was never really in doubt.

    Fokker Dr.1 vs Hanriot HD.1
    After suffering the ignominious defeat of the Phönix, the Central Powers send up their premier dogfighter to show the pesky Coppens -clad Hanriot who the real turn-and-burn champion is. Although the Hanriot could easily fly away from the Dr.1, you cannot down your enemy by running away from him. The Dr.1's double tight turns combined with some clever positioning saw the Hanriot sent down in pieces to the guns of the little green triplane with the name "KEMPF" emblazoned across the top wing.

  11. #11

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    Remembering another system from years ago the way a Dr1 took on a Spad was to climb above it and dive when you were lined up...then climb and repeat. The Dr1 should climb way faster then the Spad and control the pace of the engagement. Now the Spad could outdive it of course, and take more damage.

    Will have to study things and see if it works the same in this game as it did in Dawn Patrol and Richtofens War.

  12. #12

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    for fairness and fun id say fokker DVII vs se5a.

    for one of the most challenging our little group was playing a "grinder" scenario (ie you start with an earlier plane and work your way up like the aerodrome invitational). i ended up in an eindecker vs camels and spads. needless to say i got shot down but id have to say i gave them quite a run for their money.

    for outright bizarre, on a lark a buddy and i tried a handley page 0/400 vs zeppelin staakin. it was slow paced but bloody!

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Remembering another system from years ago the way a Dr1 took on a Spad was to climb above it and dive when you were lined up...then climb and repeat. The Dr1 should climb way faster then the Spad and control the pace of the engagement. Now the Spad could outdive it of course, and take more damage.
    The SPAD XIIIs were actually quite good climbers in real life, and in WoG this is reflected in the SPAD XIII and Dr.1 both having the same climb rate.

    And in any event, climbing above the SPAD is all well and good, but you only get to dive on him if he lets you

    To be absolutely clear, if the SPAD is flown intelligently, the Dr.1 only gets to shoot at the SPAD if the SPAD allows it. The Dr.1 controls nothing about the engagement - it's simply too slow to have a say in the matter.

    (This is also why the Dr.1 was obsolete by 1918)

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    for one of the most challenging our little group was playing a "grinder" scenario (ie you start with an earlier plane and work your way up like the aerodrome invitational). i ended up in an eindecker vs camels and spads. needless to say i got shot down but id have to say i gave them quite a run for their money.
    That sounds really fun! Do you upgrade when you get shot down? Is it like golf - he or she who is shot down least by the time all the planes have been "unlocked," is the winner?

    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    for outright bizarre, on a lark a buddy and i tried a handley page 0/400 vs zeppelin staakin. it was slow paced but bloody!
    Now that is funny! I am imagining two lumbering beasts orbiting one another and slowly whittling each other down. Did you run out of damage cards??

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    I spent a few wonderful hours over the weekend flying some duels against my son (a whip-smart 12 year old), using our new Siemens-Schuckert D.III vs a Sopwith Camel. It was a great match up and led to lots of exciting moments that really brought home again to me how much fun Wings of Glory is a system, whether you're playing a 1v1 duel or a many-vs-many scenario.

    There are so many neat matchups that can be made, both historical and ahistorical... there are classic "balanced" matchups like between the Camel and the Dr.1, but then there are opportunities to try all sorts of other combinations as well, sometimes with surprising results for all parties!

    Some of my most memorable duels..


    Those last two are my favorites if I am flying the German planes.

    SPAD XIII vs Fokker Dr.1
    The SPAD punished the Dr.1's lack of speed with blistering high speed hit-and-run tactics, denying the Dr.1 its turning advantage

    Nieuport 11 vs Albatros D.Va
    A tough one - the N.11 had to fly very carefully but was actually able to win a couple times!

    Nieuport 28 vs Fokker D.VII
    The N.28 as represented in WoG is actually quite capable and a tremendous joy to play... and the D.VII is of course completely awesome. Great fights!

    What are your favorite planes to duel with?

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Like Tim I prefer flight vs flight engagements, but some good match-ups with official aircraft are:
    Phönix D.I vs SPAD XIII
    Does the Phönix D.I have a chance when the Dr.1 can seldom make a go of it?

  17. #17

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    At one of our pre-Giants shows, the final game was a "fly whatever you like", so everyone picked a scout, then one enterprising soul swept in in a Gotha!
    Quite the eye-opener!
    It annoyed me a bit, because I had repeatedly targeted Snoopy, and had him down to just a couple of hit points, and then that pesky Gotha rear gunner pinched my kill!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    The SPAD XIIIs were actually quite good climbers in real life, and in WoG this is reflected in the SPAD XIII and Dr.1 both having the same climb rate.

    And in any event, climbing above the SPAD is all well and good, but you only get to dive on him if he lets you

    To be absolutely clear, if the SPAD is flown intelligently, the Dr.1 only gets to shoot at the SPAD if the SPAD allows it. The Dr.1 controls nothing about the engagement - it's simply too slow to have a say in the matter.

    (This is also why the Dr.1 was obsolete by 1918)
    The Dr.1 was an excellent plane and the equal of the Spad XIII in 1917 but the tripe design led to a development dead end.
    There was no way the light airframe of the Dr.1 could have coped with a large engine and, even if it had, the drag from the wing surfaces (4 counting the undercarriage foil) would have negated the advantages of the extra power.
    By 1918, there were Spad XIII flying in combat with 235hp engines.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    It's all down to how you use them! But the combination of speed and greater hitpoints gives the SPAD the possibility of an advantage, though in fairness it can devolve to quite a lot of head-on passes and Immelmanns depending on the circumstances (and creativity / deviousness of the pilots involved). The trick, as always, is to line up your shots while denying your opponent their own. It's a great puzzle for both parties!
    The Fokker can kick butt if it can get the Spad to pass it on its right side. With those super-tight non-steep right turn cards you can spray the Spad for three straight turns if you can pull it off. It's tricky, but that's the fun part of the game.

    Though shalt not Immelman a Dr.I. That was one of the rules added after Boelke was done.

  20. #20

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    <- sighs, and continues waiting for Peter Garrison and Javier Arango to publish their research...

  21. #21

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    Before the Giants, my last year at Enfilade we did a Bomber Deathmatch putting Gothas vs Capronis in a kind of aerial Jutland "Battlecruiser Death Ride" just to see what happened... it too was Slow and Bloody.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Before the Giants, my last year at Enfilade we did a Bomber Deathmatch putting Gothas vs Capronis in a kind of aerial Jutland "Battlecruiser Death Ride" just to see what happened... it too was Slow and Bloody.
    But have you ever managed to capture a Staaken by boarding? :)

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    But have you ever managed to capture a Staaken by boarding?
    Nah, just Zeppelins

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    But have you ever managed to capture a Staaken by boarding?
    No, but Le Bouche De Frog is sure trying to capture a broadside from USS Dirty Sweatsock... :P
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Like Tim I prefer flight vs flight engagements, but some good match-ups with official aircraft are:

    Fokker D.VII vs SE.5a
    Siemens Schuckert Werke D.III vs Nieuport 28
    Aviatik Berg D.I vs Hanriot HD.1
    Phönix D.I vs SPAD XIII
    Albatros D.II vs SPAD VII
    Albatros D.III vs Sopwith Triplane
    Halberstadt D.II vs Nieuport 17
    Fokker E.III vs Morane Saulnier N
    Sopwith Snipe v Fokker E.V can be added to this list - two very late war machines making a good match.
    The Snipe will give anything a run for its money, including the much vaunted Fokker D.VII !

    "He is wise who watches"

  26. #26

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    How well does the Albatros DVa match up with the Spad XIII? The former can take one less damage and is slightly slower, but they have similar flying characteristics looking at the cards (my first six planes arrived, four more tomorrow or Monday) - certainly that's literally the match-up for the duel pack.

  27. #27

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    They're a pretty close match.

    The SPAD can use its extra speed to chase down the DVa, or to escape from it; the DVa can turn inside the SPAD owing to its lower speed.

    Altitude widens the gap; the SPAD is a far superior climber, and its diving ability was legendary (often reflected in house rules, but not in the main rules).

    A slightly more experienced DVa pilot facing a slightly less experienced SPAD driver should produce a VERY close fight!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  28. #28

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    Adding to what Tim said (and with which I agree completely), it will also depend a bit on the play area available. A smaller play space - one that limits the SPAD's ability to zoom about at whim - will tend to favor the Albatros, and vice versa.

    I personally don't feel the SPAD XIII is in its element in anything smaller than a 140cm x 100cm space (i.e. two WoG mats side-by-side).

    My son and I played a series of SPAD XIII vs Albatros duels on a long train ride back in 2014, and the SPAD XIII had a tough go of it in the small-ish space we had available.

    To be sure, the Albatros (regardless of model) is a great plane. It's not particularly good at any one thing, but it's not particularly bad at anything, either (except for climbing, I guess, if you're playing with altitude rules). Very much the definition of an all-rounder. Whereas the SPAD is a rocketship with poor turning and must be flown as such.
    Last edited by surfimp; 03-03-2017 at 14:45.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    That sounds really fun! Do you upgrade when you get shot down? Is it like golf - he or she who is shot down least by the time all the planes have been "unlocked," is the winner?



    Now that is funny! I am imagining two lumbering beasts orbiting one another and slowly whittling each other down. Did you run out of damage cards??



    yes, i had it divided into 3 tiers (what i could support with the minis i had at the time). and other than who had the most kills we really werent keeping track. id say from the fun had by all everybody won!



    fairly slowly, until the boom card came out lol(which we credity with doing 15 pts to the big guys)! almost, we were down to single digits remaining when the boom card came out.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    At one of our pre-Giants shows, the final game was a "fly whatever you like", so everyone picked a scout, then one enterprising soul swept in in a Gotha!
    Quite the eye-opener!
    It annoyed me a bit, because I had repeatedly targeted Snoopy, and had him down to just a couple of hit points, and then that pesky Gotha rear gunner pinched my kill!



    my buddy rick (black kniggit) has a real knack for kill poaching lol!

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    my buddy rick (black kniggit) has a real knack for kill poaching lol!
    Something I've experimented with in other games: XP given not for "kills", but for damage inflicted....

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Something I've experimented with in other games: XP given not for "kills", but for damage inflicted....
    Kills, everyone is more than willing to poach the plane you've hammered on all game. Damage inflicted is better but random. You can give an opponent 10 cards and put 3 hits on him while 3 cards back at you can do 13 or more. I've thought of trying giving pilots points for cards inflicted on opponents minus cards taken. Maybe give a bonus for a kill.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I've thought of trying giving pilots points for cards inflicted on opponents minus cards taken. Maybe give a bonus for a kill.
    How would you keep track of who did what to who ?

  34. #34

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    Last year at Origins there were games where the GM took record of all damage inflicted by whom upon whom. This to determine top players in the game to award prizes. A bit of bookkeeping work! I think just noting how many cards were inflicted would be easier but it will mean taking notes through out the game.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Something I've experimented with in other games: XP given not for "kills", but for damage inflicted....



    cappy tom did something like that at origins last year.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Kills, everyone is more than willing to poach the plane you've hammered on all game. Damage inflicted is better but random. You can give an opponent 10 cards and put 3 hits on him while 3 cards back at you can do 13 or more.
    Those are the breaks -- think of it like the difference between succeeding at a skill roll in an RPG, vs. failing at it.

  37. #37

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    My son and I had a fun duel the other day with our Siemens-Schuckert D.III and Sopwith Snipe. It was a close-run thing, but at the end the D.III pilot shot more accurately. Good fight and good fun


  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Something I've experimented with in other games: XP given not for "kills", but for damage inflicted....
    As noted, this has been done for several games at Origins the last couple years, for just the that reason of winner determination. When you are flying with a club, esp. with a campaign, it makes sense to award the kill to the last shooter (as was done in the war(s)). With a one time competition game, esp. with prizes involved, the fairer system of VPs for damage inflicted is better. Also getting negative points for being shot down and for flying off the board.
    I did find that this method doesn't work well when VPs are awarded for bombing targets, unless all the planes have the same bomb loads.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus



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