I regret complaining on a forum with such a positive tone, but this seems like a singular opportunity missed.
Bloody April centenary coming, and most planes out of print
I regret complaining on a forum with such a positive tone, but this seems like a singular opportunity missed.
90 % of my gaming buddies do not know what Bloody April (Frühjahrsschlacht bei Arras) was.
We had a similar thread for the upcomimg BoB box that missed the 75th anniversary last year.
Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!
Looked at that way, it is two missed opportunities: the easy one of getting that 10% to throw money at them this month, and the more involved one of advertising the anniversary in order to relaunch the game to some of the 90%.
There's no other event so marketable; the Fokker Scourge anniversary was no good as it was one sided, and the upcoming Spring Offensive is less well-known.
In my opinion, the huge gaps between reprints, and the corresponding significant difficulty in finding many of the better-known / desirable aircraft, is something plaguing the system as a whole - irrespective of missed opportunities around marking the anniversaries of historical events.
I have amassed a pretty comprehensive WoG collection, sometimes paying collector's prices to do so, and I don't regret it, but it's difficult for me to encourage other people to get into the game knowing that some of the "good", colorful, or well-known planes will be very difficult to find and/or expensive to acquire.
Instead I wind up offering to share my own stuff, which is quite fine, but... gamers like to get invested in systems, both in a metaphorical and literal sense, and it can be very hard to do that when their favorite planes become nigh impossible to find.
X-Wing, the most relevant example, does not suffer from this to any comparable degree. For whatever its other flaws - and there are many - Fantasy Flight does a good job of keeping stock on the shelves. In my view, I question whether Ares has anything on offer in their lineup that has comparable success to Wings of Glory, so I struggle to understand why they don't do a better job of supporting it. One could argue that their focus on these side titles is simply cannibalizing the success of their (IMHO) most successful product line.
Agreed, Surfimp. This is one example of a systemic issue.
The benefit of everyone using your stuff, though, is that no-one walks off with cards from your decks in theirs.
Last edited by Muerto; 02-18-2017 at 07:01.
Ah yes, back in the day when there were very few minis available at all, some of us who had a collection began putting together scenarios to play at the local game stores. We provided all the minis, mats and targets from everything to balloon attacks to Zeppelins, aircraft carriers and beyond. It was quite fun and brought a lot of new players to the game. Now we do have some planes available, but not enough it seems to have on hand when the fever is spiked! I had some success steering the new recruits to the Aerodrome sales pages, but what we need is still the local effort to put on the events. Here is the best thing this site does, create and showcase such events! I know my collection is just accumulating a lot of dust, but it has always been available to borrow . . . just some ideas . . .
I'll just say: You're not the only only one who's noticed this recurring pattern.Originally Posted by Muerto
Holy frijoles! Please accept my humble offering of rep, Clipper.
I am a collector of various things, antique and new. For me it's more the "thrill of the chase" to find a particular item. Once I have it, I look to the next. With this system, I have enjoyed collecting WoW planes. But now my collection is complete and I only buy for re-painting purposes. My problem is that I cannot, in good conscience, recommend the game to anyone who does not share my same "hunting" ability. I know I have told a few guys at the local gameshop what their planes are worth and their jaws drop. Luckily, they already own them, but if I were trying to convince a new player that it is OK to spend $40-$50 for a single SE5A he would think I was insane and go find another game, and I would not blame him. Steve--your X-wing comments are perfect. I have been in two different game shops this weekend and have seen fully stocked X-wing shelves in both, and people buying them. I'm sure we could contact Ares, but is that really our job? My job is to spend money and have fun, If I can't do it at one place, there is always somewhere else. I may sound like a bitter Old man, but I spent half my Career in Retail and I know the Customer is truly King, and I 'aint afraid to say it.
On a certain level, I understand that regardless of how passionate I am about WWI aircraft, the fact remains that something that happened 100 years ago may just as well as happened 10,000 years ago, from the point of view of much of the general public. Historical games just don't have the draw they once did, and there's nothing Ares can do to change that. I'm very grateful they're bothering at all.
With that said, WoG is a fun game that's easy to get into, and you don't have to know or care anything about WWI or the people who fought and died in it to enjoy playing this game.
However, you do have to be able to see it on shelves, see other people playing it, and have some sense of how to get into it beyond just randomly stumbling across it. Apparently it doesn't sell as well as X-Wing and maybe as a result it's too niche to compete for shelf space. But darn it all, every single wave of WWI planes sure seems to sell out worldwide not too long after every release. I have to believe there's enough pent-up demand to support additional production, and Ares has got to have the sales numbers to prove it. I just don't get it.
Anyways, I will continue to enjoy what I've got, and share it with anyone who's interested. I'm so glad this game exists, and I'll be glad to keep buying it as long as they keep making it. But I'm at a loss for how to get it to grow, given the difficult nature of the production strategy.
Before there were duel sets and great planes like DVII's around to buy, we used to buy Shapeways by the loads and paint them, make cards and bases and gave them to the ones who showed at the games and could not either afford or find their own planes to play . . . it just seemed the right thing to do . .
They seemed to be better times . . . now we have so many and so few at the same time, "little has changed and nothing is new . . ."
It's the 10,000th anniversary of something?? Let me at it!
I disagree with you to a point, Surfimp; absolutely, the bigger picture is no product on shelf at all, and certainly, most historical games are not fashionable outside old folks at clubs (Flames of War's recent run aside). However, for a small firm such as Ares (which is small against GW, which is itself small against most recognisable companies) that old-folks-at-clubs demographic could be harnessed to give a real boost in sales percentage. And old folks at clubs love a good anniversary to whip their mates into a game-day frenzy; look to recent fusses over Napoleonics and ACW. We even pondered the 1000th anniversary of Cnut's invasion of England for Saga.
If they had Albatros D.III and Nieuport 17 boxes on shelf, it's be reasonable to assume at least a hundred guys world-wide would put $100 down on new planes this month. I imagine that $10k would have been welcome.
Ares made over $100k on two obscure planes on Kickstarter for a game which had no starter sets available. If they had have put a Bloody April 100th anniversary edition Albatros D.III vs Nieuport 17 box on Kickstarter, it's reasonable to assume it would have beaten 100K and boosted the exactly $0 per month sales they are making on starter sets right now. Even if the anniversary only increased that a little bit, it's a relatively little company.
But yes, regrets about this anniversary are secondary to regrets over the general neglect of the game.
Last edited by Muerto; 02-18-2017 at 16:09.
But, being more forthright and taking Walter Nowotny's customer-is-king view, I can't get what I bloody-well want from a company to which I want to give money, and it's giving me the irrits on this otherwise-fine Sunday
I can be a little short with words and direct to the point sometimes. I guess it's my German blood kicking in.
Not to change the subject, but talk about a GREAT BUSINESS model, how about the latest LEGO movie. It was the highest boxing movie of the week and it's basically an hour-and-a-half toy commercial!! Pure Genius! They make a massive variety of toys, been in business making plastic blocks since the late 40's, on shelves everywhere, great distribution, they advertise and are successful, Hmmm....now there's a Business Model to learn by. I am not comparing Ares to them at all, but just think of all the knowledge that could be obtained.
You weren't being short, Jim. I was
Well, in fairness the Series 3 reprint - the next one due - is going to include those two planes, so if they can get it in-stores by April, all is not lost!
With that said, I'd love to see more Kickstarters and just more Duel Packs in general. An S.E.5a / Fokker D.VII pack would just be great.
And with that said, Clipper is right. Regardless of what Ares does or doesn't do, the game is only visible and accessible to new players to the extent that they can see and play it. Whether that is via official releases from Nexus/Ares or via Shapeways, it's kind of a moot point. I should really just buckle down and get more into the hobby side of this, and more importantly, start playing outside the home in the FLGS.
Fatatsy is big lure but i have found that after a while the gamer want some thing more from there games to turn to historical.
I would venture that two of the main problems are cash flow (hence the reliance, some might argue over-reliance, on Kickstarters) and factory bandwidth (you know, China is ruthlessly money-talks-BS-walks and both production scheduling and quality go to the highest bidder). They're trying to have big-company ambitions without big-company personnel and resources--ideally, they should have at least three teams (one each dedicated to Wings/Sails, Galaxy Defenders and Board Games, possibly split W/S and BG's even further).
Dear all,
I understand you well. All I can say is that a whide range of WW1 reprints is in preparation. In the meantime, Series 3 will arrive.
A huhge thank you for all the demos and promotion events you did in the past, and a huge one to all of you wjo are still doing them nowadays. The game would maybe not even survive without you.
If you want to help people to appreciate how the game is historical, please add a few pages for your preferite aircrafts or pilots or units here:
http://79.170.44.100/wikiofglory.inf...itle=Main_Page
Clipper, great pictures as ever. May I circulate them as I did with the past ones, crediting them to you?
Andrea, thank you for understanding, and please note to Rob & Co. that our various concerns are not malicious but trying to look out for the company and game--every captain needs a good team of lookouts, and we're calling out our own "Icebergs Ahead" warnings as we see 'em from our respective points of view and issues-of-focus--my draft note that I'm still trying to refine for Root Cause Analysis on the pattern of glitchery whose most recent and severe illustration is the Spanish Chihuahua Fleet in Wave 3 being Frederick Fleet's "ICEBERG STRAIGHT AHEAD!" on April 14, 1912... but hopefully enough earlier to alter course and miss.
Ah yeah, good point - having started this flap, I needed to advertise the demo game my club's doing in the Australian wing section. Done.
Thanks for the soothing words, Andrea. Well said, Diamondback.
This right here is 90% of the problem.
How do we know what, if any of the issues under discussion are down to Chinese causes?
David, some of it's inside view from Wizards of the Coast's issues in Axis & Allies production--I had a similar but less formal and not as close advisory relationship with WOTC lead designer Rich Baker to what you and I have with Ares now. We don't know exactly WHERE the points of failure are, there are so many viable Murphy Factors all the way from concept to 3d model (the British First Rates are clearly a 3d-model design issue, "MINI-gildos" and SGN112 are both a matter of scaling post-design) that it could be any or multiple. Issues like the Staaken wing... well, how the 3d model is converted into molding components is the factory's department, from what I was once told, which also contributes to things like Herringbone Staakens.
What we do know is that somewhere, there is a fatal flaw in the system contributing to a string of high-visibility Unforced Errors, and that Ares should after MINI-gildos scoring another black eye perform a post-mortem Root Cause Analysis to figure out exactly where things are failing, why they are, and how to fix it. We on the outside don't need to know what those answers are, we just need to know that they will make every reasonable effort to find and fix it, and to see improvement next release.
I have purchased a fair bit from Miniature Market and CoolStuff. Plus there have been some awesome people on this site that have helped me find the pilots I've been hunting. After that though I have paid two and three times the normal price for the pilot I was looking for. Each time I do, that is money not going to Ares. As I find and buy WoW planes,that is one more plane I don't purchase in the WoG line, again money not going to Ares. If it came to worse this wouldn't be the first out of print game that I enjoy from time to time.
Just a few more planes to find and I'll be thrilled. And thank you to all here that have helped me find some hard to get pilots and their planes. Some have truly helped me as a newer player have given more more that fair prices.
So the "problem = china" thing is just supposition at this stage
We know some of it is Over There, like the Staaken wing thing. We know some is Onshore, like the long-strut Tripe and the B-17 excessive dihedral. We know some could go Either Way, like MINI-gildos, and we can't know without more info and Root Cause Analysis.
These are not the important things for the customer--the most important thing we know is that SOMEWHERE in the pipeline, possibly multiple places, there is a break that needs to be fixed, and what WE need to know, and Ares needs to reassure us of, is that they are aware of the problem and investigating with intent to take corrective action and fix the development process as required. Details can be Company Proprietary, as long as they tell us "we're looking into it" at one end of the process and "found and fixed" at the other.
I would, and it is just me, prioritize the 'issues'. As for the Tripe and B-17, I wouldn't and didn't even know there was an issue; on the Triplane I didn't really care until I realize how big the issue was on this site. For many gamers having the game available to new players is the single biggest issue. If only a few models are not quite right for historical purposes this it is availability. If the majority of the models was wrong then sure, move that up in priority. Availability versus ebay can be the life or death of a game. For a new player getting involved in the game (which all games need) then the most famous pilots and the ones with the most victories should be available all of the time. All three Dr.1 and Camels so you can play a game with Triplanes for example. Having said that there are still Duel Paks available. So, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
Ken, it could be summarized as three major problems: Development QC (I've listed the pattern of seemingly one-or-more visible major design flaws every release elsewhere, and it's becoming alarmingly consistent--for the premium price they want that brings a higher expectation of quality), Core Product Availability and Delivery On Schedule. The last I gave them a tool to try to work on with Scotty's Law ("always multiply time estimates by a factor of four").
I'm not talking about any one mini's issues itself with Dev QC, but looking at the Design/Production process itself--individual sculpts are just symptoms, as much as it may rip the Tripe-hounds' skivvies to hear me say that about their baby.
Good thread, biggest flaw I can see is lack of Hobby shop support. They need something that moves to justify shelf space. With the VERY limited supply of base games, lack of older airframes, and snail pace reprints and new product I can understand their lack of support. At this stage the game is so old and unsupported that most have written it off. I also do not even want to think on how much the company has lost in sales to Shapeways airframes, but whatever it takes to keep the game alive.
I think there still needs to be base airframes avalible at all times and not in limited releases. Say a box with 4 generic airframes from each side with decal sheets to do em yourself. Include decks and maybe a book of different aces and it would go over well. That is as long as it stayed in production and avalible on the shelves at all times. With the lack of airframes out there, the rule box MUST have at least 2 aircraft (stands and cards also) included to make it playable upon purchase. Again they can use basic aircraft and save the ace planes for their normal yearly releases. This gets a play upon purchase product on the shelves and a cheaper reinforcement box out there instantly. Maybe a year/offensive style box set for the rules, 2 planes evenly matched, and paper maps included with rules, damage decks, and tokens. Again a play straight out of the box set up is needed to get it back in the stores. Few stores will commit to a product that is unplayable without planes they can not get to sell. Also the wait/E-bay Price for standard airframes is a game killer.
Nothing new here, we have all kicked it around before...still a great game though.
P.S....Upon further thought I think the main reason the WoW sets are still moving is for the very reason that they have plane cards and Maneuver decks include in them and are playable upon purchase. Gods know I have bought one of each of the old card decks and box sets (OK..so still need the big plane box) and have been able to build a good stock of decks. The stock of decks allows me to look into shapeways airframes in the future to fill out the gaps in my airfleet.
Hmmm...Quick thought...maybe some of the cheap shapeways style planes thrown into the starter box could keep prices down. Plane, decals, stand, and painting guide would work. The company could purchase the rights to the airframes from the designers ( say 50 cents a print) and get them mass printed from places other then China and a heck of a lot quicker.
Last edited by Shadowcat; 02-20-2017 at 22:52. Reason: Add on..
Or Fake News
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing
You're not wrong there Ken - maybe we should listen to Oddball's advice:
Woof,Woof !
Sapiens qui vigilat "He is wise who watches"
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing
With that said, I'd love to see more Kickstarters and just more Duel Packs in general. An S.E.5a / Fokker D.VII pack would just be great.
i thinks thats a great idea. id go further though, and i think it would do a lot to keep the iconic planes available more. id like to see duel packs from at least 4 phases of the war. early war; 1st blood. ie the first pre war aircraft that machine guns were strapped to. early war; the 1st fighters. ie the 1st purpose designed fighters. mid war, which we have 2 for. and late war with the fokker DVII and se5a. with these 4 phases available at all times, or at least on a rotating short list, i think it would go a long way to generating and maintaining interest in the game by allowing fairly easy access to, at least some, of the most iconic aircraft that draws players to the game.
they could be kept at a fixed paint scheme to streamline the turnaround instead of having to go through the process of having to come up with some new paint schemes each time the sets are reprinted.
I think our biggest problem is a small group of players are trying to take a small company with very limited resources and ask them to expand. There may not be enough demand for the product out there to justify expansion for one thing, and the game has been around long enough to have gone off the radar of stores and new players. They may almost have to take a KS attitude and start with a KS base game (including one off Stretch goal planes) and every year punch out some sort of expansion (early war, mid war, trench strafing, ect) Each expansion would have a map, new one off planes, counters, and decks. Plus side is you get sold units from the get go and finance your production. Down side is you cut out the hobby stores and have limited avalibility of your product. Good for us loyal players but not so good for getting new players or snagging non KS people.
I look at my WOW boxes vs my WOG box and feel sort of let down. I can NOT play the game with just my WoG box, I NEED to purchase extra airframes. Also the older sets had maneuver cards, paper planes, nice cardboard dash boards, and were playable straight out of the box. The old game took just the price of the box to get involved. The newer WoG set requires purchase of at least 2 aircraft (if you can find em) and the box set to get started. This doubles the inital investment to start and does nasty things to required inventory for a shop to carry the line, if they can even get it. If nothing else I would stop production of the base game altogether and concentrate on 2 and 4 plane box sets now. The need to get new rules out for older WoW players is long past and they need to be able to stand on their own game now. Generic mass produced airframes should be cheaper then the limited run ace airframes so save some costs there. Also removing the box of rules from inventory and going to a 2 or 4 plane box set would reduce inventory and cover the plane shortage issue a bit. The biggest issue of all is still avalibility, it needs to be out there and in stock at ALL times.
Sigh...OK...time to fade back into the clouds
Last edited by Shadowcat; 02-21-2017 at 13:27. Reason: sigh...spelling as norm
Indeed, this thread shows that everyone has a clever idea of what Ares should do and when, without knowing the actual hurdles. That includes myself, and from your later paragraphs, your good self too (not that I disagree, mind). Further, unfortunately, certain other axes are also coming out for grinding.
But expansion is not the demand. Maintenance of previously-existing basic capacity is. While it's only partially fair to label as maintenance the reprinting of the more iconic planes for which Ares bought the assets but never themselves made, it is entirely fair in the case of starter sets which they did once make.
But both are basic capacity, and with that basic capacity I could have scratched my own peculiar centenary itch.
Actually, availability and schedules were problems even in the old Nexus days... but absolutely right, even us who've been relatively "brought a little more inside" don't see everything--in my case, a large part of my "business side" observations are extrapolated from what I've seen working with other companies.
And don't get me wrong, no axe to grind here--I WANT to see them succeed, but sometimes you have to tell hard truths to even dear friends.
The first question is, how to capitalize up to where they need to be to do what they want to do?
Seems going back to basics is the idea then.
Start with a core game playable by itself in one box. That is something the hobby stores can buy into and will grab new players. Just re releasing the old box sets may work if they are brought up to current standards and include the ability to play it straight out of the box without having to buy anything else (biggest hurdle in the current configuration in my opinion). Looking at the box games at the local hobby store around $60 to $80 US is the norm for box games. This means a starter box could be damage decks, measuring sticks, tokens, paper map x 2, better grade dashboards (just a personal liking), 2 generic aircraft with decals, 2 maneuver decks, and rules. Also you could at the same time release 3 plane flight boxes with 3 more of the generic aircraft with decals, maneuver decks, and maybe a small booklet of pilots, squadrons, offensives, and the like. A short time later do more 3 plane boxes of different fighter style aircraft. A year or so down the line if it keeps going do the same with a recon box using two seater aircraft. For the later flight boxes make it 1 recon and 2 fighters of different but same timeline types. We have already done big planes with the KS so that is covered. For a balloon box make it rules,tokens, deck, balloon, and a rocket armed fighter like before with maybe a new defending fighter or molded plastic ground defense tokens ( a sandbagged MG nest or light AAA piece).
At the same time they can keep up the once or twice yearly release of ace style painted planes for the hardcores out there.
At this point the game seems to need to re establish itself anew. This means scrapping the crossover product (mainly core rules box) and going back to play in the box style games. keep the basic rules and flight sets in print and stock at all times and play with the ace releases at their leisure like we have now. As it goes now if you get the box set without the inclucded airframes you can get upset because your new game is unplayable in it's current form. Even if you are not discouraged at the start, finding the planes to play can be a major chore in itself. This is not good for hooking new players and we are regulated to one guy with all the toys putting on games at cons for all the others. You need a game that someone can buy and take off the shelf to play with friends and family as is. If you want to add aircraft it has to be easy and AVALIBLE at all times. Getting the hobby stores to buy back in will be the major challange (once bitten twice shy ect.)
Well...that is my take anyway...keep the ideas coming.
Sigh..P.S.
Year one: Basic box set. 2 Flight boxes (one for each side), maybe one or two more flight boxes per side.
Year two: Recon box set, 2 flight boxes (one fore each side) And a few more flight boxes
Year three: Balloon box set, extra flight boxes for the first 2 releases.
Add maps, ace releases, and extras as funds and time allow.
Last edited by Shadowcat; 02-21-2017 at 22:02.
But CoolStuff has the Duel Pack which is playable right out of the box. Though it would be nice if some brick and mortar locally carried it too. Sadly Miniature Market does appear out of stock and both are out of stock for the Wings of Glory WWI Rules and Accessories Pack + Airplane Packs Combo. 47USD for rules, decks, counters and four planes. Not bad really, if it was available.
While they have stock of one of the two Duel Packs at the moment it's actually a pretty rare thing (Miniature Market restocks it more often, but sell out quicker because of it). The second duel set might as well be out of print at the moment for how often it's in stock anywhere. The Accessories Pack + planes is as best I can tell completely discontinued. I'd agree that those packs would easily meet the need of a starter set, if they were even slightly readily available.
I think the Duel Packs are fine for the starter plan. Two planes and the basic rules to play. The set is cheap so veterans can buy the new planes in the packs without paying for the extra redundancy that a full blown starter set would include. If a newbie finds he wants to commit to the game, he buys the full Rules & Accessories set, which doesn't come with any planes. This is like the ASL Starter Kit and ASL main game marketing, which makes a lot of sense given the investments involved in both ASL and WOG.
That plan still requires 2 SKUs that have to be avalible at the same location. Also it REQUIRES that the 2 plane packs be avalible for purchase AT ALL TIMES. That is where it all goes south unfortunatly. Avalibility is the biggest problem from day one all the way back to the first incarnation.
So...issues are
Avalibility of airframes and box sets
Playability out of the box
and new airframes in a timely manner.
Maybe it is time for a box set version 2. Hey, Fow is on their 3rd incarnation, Bolt action has gone to their second rules set. Even Hordes/Warmachine is up to their 3rd rules revision, and we will not touch the greedy weasils (GW) rules revisions. New box with 2 planes, and upgraded rules book and bits and cards would be a nice start. Make it compatable with everything out there already but add a campaign and airframe timeline to it. This gives you a clean break point to start over while keeping everything out there still usable. Nothing changes but you get a new box look and start over fresh allowing you to get the interest of the brick and mortar stores. The key is still MAKE IT PLAYABLE STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. That is one of the biggest issues in my opinion.
Last edited by Shadowcat; 02-22-2017 at 11:46. Reason: spelling...it is heck getting old
It was difficult just to get going. Only today did I find both Duel Packs at decent prices and a spare Dr.1 (Lothar) and Nieuport 28. Basically some planes that matched up reasonably well. The full rules plus four planes set is something they really need to keep in print.
Not sure we're talking about the same thing here: The Duel Packs contain two planes AND basic rules; everything needed to play. One SKU. What are you referring to here?
http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/214100
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/arewgf600a.html
I do wish that Ares would support this game better. I worry that the rate they are expanding their offerings may make reprinting less desirable. In fact, suppport overall may fall off.
That was never really a "set" per se, it was more of a bundle that Ares put together about a year or two ago, I guess to help move through stock?
With that said, more Duel Packs would be great, and definitely, a new starter set - similar to the WGS Battle of Britain set coming out next month, and containing 4 planes and the contents of the RAP pack - would be most welcome.
Im not familar with Kickstarter ways, but a "quad pack" of SE5s'a would fund in a single day
Lohengrin,
For the 2 SKU issue here is how it works.
You buy the 2 plane set and find you like the game (1 SKU)
Then you have to search out the box set and purchase it for the extra rules, other damage decks, and more counters (2nd SKU)
If you want to keep on playing then the real fun starts searching for non existant extra airframes (many SKUs)
Then the great hunt starts for the Balloon box set, OOP Airframes, and even older rules sets. (Optional but very time and cash consuming)
I will admit I am E-bay savvy and have grabbed all WOW boxes but the big plane one, have over 40 airframes, 2 of the medium bombers, the Barrage balloon box, AND just ordered a Zep Stratt from Coolstuff last night (Thanks for the heads up guys). Most people will not go to all that effort and expense for a game so the company loses out on sales. Also with every E-bay or 3D printed purchase the company loses sales and income they could use to expand and grow.
Hunting around for the different parts is more then most casual gamers will commit to. All in one box is more their speed hence my annoying insistance we need a rule box with 2 airframes as the start point. The 2 plane duel packs are nice, (plan on getting them myself someday) but it confuses the new players and you still have the box set issue. The box set issue is if a parent or friend buys someone the box set for a gift thinking they will like it there is the risk of them never playing it due to lack of planes (it just aint complete). Us vets know better but lots of people just see a game box on the shelf and buy it. If planes are not avalible right away in the same location then you risk the purchaser just stopping there and never playing.
This is the very reason I have hunted down the old box sets, I get every thing I need off the get go and the paper plane cards work if I want to go the shapeways route down the road. Over time I have built a library of maneuver decks so can feild at least one of every deck but the big bomber ones. This allows me to look into Shapeways airframes now to fill in the gaps on airframes no longer avalible or WAYYY too expensive on E-bay. It also allows me to paint up new patterens for my airframes without destroying existing ace models (just can't do that, the collector in me wont allow it).
sigh...give em a inch and he just keeps going....
No, I understand that, Shadowcat. To me, whether there's an appropriate "entry product" and whether there's availability are two different issues. There's no reason the full rules & accessory pack has to come with planes. That lets veterans buy the planes without shelling out for another RAP (unless the included planes are also available separately, unlike the Duel Packs). I'm just saying I find the Duel Pack concept sufficient for starting and trying out the game. The expenditure for that is very reasonable. The special deal for the RAP and 4 planes for $50 was a good buy, but I don't believe it was intended as the new startup concept, as surfimp states above.
I'd love more production and more stock. Who here wouldn't? But it is what it is, and I'm glad I got on board early enough to get most of the WOGF products, and am content with that. It's a long road to cover all the WWI aircraft, and I'm pretty happy that it's long. At least my wallet is, I should say.
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