Me 163 Komet in WGS

[Nightbomber]

Let me start a thread of implementation this interesting plane into WGS system.



Starting with below information and some nicely done outsourced minis presented by some users
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messer...t_Me_163_Komet

we could be able to work out the houserules and inlude it in the game.

Following my experience with jets, I have some suggestions to share.
The Komets should be easy played as AI interceptors.
Their armament of 2 30mm canons would give them DD/D damage capacity (while Me 262 armed with 4 30 mm ones are rated DDDD/DD).
Deck? Hmmm... need your thoughts.

Andy.

[Guntruck]

Should we not be thinking about jets in general, with the intention of designing/producing sets of decks that are longer to accommodate the faster speed?

[Nightbomber]

Should we not be thinking about jets in general, with the intention of designing/producing sets of decks that are longer to accommodate the faster speed?

A very good idea, Steve. Gloster Meteor, Schwalbe, He 162 and Me 163 are to be taken into account.
I could be a modified one of the existing fast decks, but which one?

[Marechallannes]

The idea for the Schwalbe was to extend the movement- / planned movement card by a short straight...

Test run in Opole.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ole+jetfighter

[Nightbomber]

The idea for the Schwalbe was to extend the movement- / planned movement card by a short straight...

Test run in Opole.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ole+jetfighter

Yes, however at Doncaster I presented my "H-deck version" I had devised in comparison to Mustang's speed performance and it went ok.
Anyway we still need to find a final solution to it's movement issue.

[flash]

Reading through the link there are interesting points raised -
Looks like you will need powered and unpowered speeds.
Even when gliding it was very manoeuvrable.
Weapons were only effective at short range.
Tactics involved (on both sides)

The Komets attacked singly or in pairs, often even faster than the intercepting fighters could dive. A typical Me 163 tactic was to fly vertically upward through the bombers flying at 9,000 m (30,000 ft), rise up to an altitude of 10,700–12,000 m (35,100–39,400 ft), then dive through the formation again firing as they went. This approach afforded the pilot two brief chances to fire a few rounds from his cannons before gliding back to his airfield.

Although the Me 163 was a stable gun platform, it required excellent marksmanship to bring down an enemy bomber. The Komet was equipped with two 30 mm (1.18 inch) MK 108 cannons which had a relatively low muzzle velocity of 540 meters per second (1,772 feet/sec), and were accurate only at short range, making it almost impossible to hit a slow moving bomber. Four or five hits were typically needed to take down a B-17.

Allied fighter pilots soon noted the short duration of the powered flight. They would wait, and when the engine exhausted its propellant supply, pounce on the unpowered Komet. However, the Komet was extremely manoeuvrable in gliding flight.

Lots to think about Andy, I'd suggest you make it catch-able by a Mustang when it's gliding for home but untouchable when under powered flight.
Quite how to achieve that with the decks to hand I don't know but I will watch this project with interest.

[Nightbomber]

Reading through the link there are interesting points raised -
Looks like you will need powered and unpowered speeds.
Even when gliding it was very manoeuvrable.
Weapons were only effective at short range.
Tactics involved (on both sides)

Lots to think about Andy, I'd suggest you make it catch-able by a Mustang when it's gliding for home but untouchable when under powered flight.
Quite how to achieve that with the decks to hand I don't know but I will watch this project with interest.

Thanks for this interesting insight, Steve.
With lots of flight specifics they are almost ideal pieces to be flown by some AI algorythm.
Also a kind of check for self destruction (mixed fuel) must be implemented. Something like drawing an A damage token and looking for a special damage on it in some situations.

Untouchable when powered... interesting, however I would tend to use the official overdive (well, overclimb) procedure and let them reject tokens while they are powered.

A food for thought, absolutely.

[Nightbomber]

So could we agree as to their armament? DD/D?
Damage capacity? My initial suggestion: 20.
Special damage rules: powered: fire damage never stops until engine cut off. When gliding - no smoke, no fire, no engine damage.
Deck (the hardest point)?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Perhaps now is the time to develop in house decks for the jets. Using the 48?km/cm arrow length we could work out the cards. Fewer cards than most other decks. The cards will be larger than the fast decks. For the Comet you could include cards for movement when it is gliding. Just some thoughts. And I thought Andy's two card system for the 262 was good and I'm sure would convert to a 1 card deck very well.

[Marechallannes]

Yes, however at Doncaster I presented my "H-deck version" I had devised in comparison to Mustang's speed performance and it went ok.
Anyway we still need to find a final solution to it's movement issue.

That's how we played it in Prague, too.

Didn't we?

[Nightbomber]

That's how we played it in Prague, too.

Didn't we?

Yeap, we did.

[milcoll73]

has anybody come up with stats for horton 229s? maneuver deck, armament, climb rate?

[Nightbomber]

has anybody come up with stats for horton 229s? maneuver deck, armament, climb rate?

Never heard or read about such stats, Phillip.

[flash]

Andy - Mad Charly posted 'Rocket Jet Rules for use in 1945" here in the files - they may help in your quest.

[Nightbomber]

Andy - Mad Charly posted 'Rocket Jet Rules for use in 1945" here in the files - they may help in your quest.

Thanks Dave.
But it is in Italian!

[flash]

It's not all that difficult Andy !

Manoeuvre Cards: Extension Card Deck + R * (the same as the Fw 190 D9, excluding cards 12/18).

Mentions damage of 16 too but it later says:

Base: Fighter
Manoeuvring Cards: R* remove cards 12-15-16 ADD speed extender
Damage points: 12
Climb: 1
Ceiling:14

I don't know what difference removing those cards make or how manoeuvrable that deck is but is the speed right ?

The propulsion engine lasted about 4 minutes and climbs 10,000 mt / 1 minute. Therefore we consider that, in terms of game, a flight minutes corresponds to two moves (that is, two manoeuvre cards, including extension card when required). So after 8 moves rockets end delivering power and Natter goes on gliding (see flying at high altitude).

Extension Card. The increase in speed compared to models the last generation pistons (Ba 349 had a speed of 800 Km / h at sea level to reach almost 1000 km / h at altitude). It is simulated by adding a card with a front extension at the base of the miniature and placing the next manoeuvre card on the appropriate reference. In particular must place the upper part of the Miniature or card on the starting line (Start line) use the grey line to centre it properly. Finally put the card on correct speed line (white background), or, on that of the high speed (Blue), depending on the used speed.
When the card used shall be the descent prefix extension at high speed; when the card from use the stall is used to use the extension low speed.

Flight at altitude: The Ba 349 reached the dimension 4 (?) using engine yet 6 moves (cards + extension card) maneuver, in both you use the up or down arrow speed), with the motor on the change in altitude is instantaneous (one step), just play climb card and you will gain a level. After switching off the motor, moves to 2 moves, gliding phase (extension card + card maneuver, are used in both the low speed arrows), exchange of altitude after step 2 (ie you play a climb card, then the next card played ascent Level increases). in step planing, using only the cards at low speed maneuver, in this stage it is not possible ascend, also every 4 manoeuvre cards (Maximum) must be mandatory played a descent card ....

I had to paraphrase a little but I'm sure if you PM him MC can help further. I liked the speed extender though - we could use something like that for diving speeds in WW1 !

[Guntruck]

Perhaps now is the time to develop in house decks for the jets. Using the 48?km/cm arrow length we could work out the cards. Fewer cards than most other decks. The cards will be larger than the fast decks. For the Comet you could include cards for movement when it is gliding. Just some thoughts. And I thought Andy's two card system for the 262 was good and I'm sure would convert to a 1 card deck very well.

I seem to have forgotten about this thread, so time to play catch-up. My thoughts were that if we can work out stats I would design any new decks needed.

For the Komet (and the Natter, although this was never intended to glide so we can dispense with slow cards for this) I am assuming that the thing will be going full blast rather than have the option of fast/slow during normal flight. Therefore, the straight card will have a fast/slow arrow, and few of the more sharper turns will only have a slow option for when the go-juice runs out. Immelmanns are out as well.

For the 262 I was wondering whether different load-outs (bombs, cannon, a radar op in the 2 seater) would affect performance sufficiently to require different decks.

For the WW1 stats we aimed to produce a set for each aircraft that was commercially produced, so for WW2 we would currently looking at the 262, Komet, the He162, Natter (HBM did do this), AR234, Ju 287, Ho229, Airacomet, and there is probably a Meteor lurking in Shapeways somewhere. And you can also throw a V1 into the mix, although you would only need one card for that.

Not getting really involved in the original WW2 stats resolution due to reasons I won't bore you with here, I seem to have missed any algorithms put together for working out the stats. Is there one and if so where can I find it?

Now off to find my Ladybird Book of Big F***-off Jets of WW2

[Guntruck]

Andy - Mad Charly posted 'Rocket Jet Rules for use in 1945" here in the files - they may help in your quest.

Am I missing something here? This only appears to refer to the Natter.

[Nightbomber]

Am I missing something here? This only appears to refer to the Natter.

I am afraid you are right, Steve.
We need to have Me 163 rules in particular.
Moreover, we will need Mike's assistance as far as card for Komet is concerned.
Mike, do you copy?

[Guntruck]

Moreover, we will need Mike's assistance as far as card for Komet is concerned.

So my aircraft cards aren't good enough for you?

[Nightbomber]

Oh! You have them! Sorry Steve, did not see them.

[Nightbomber]

Steve, link me to them please; can not find any...

[Guntruck]

Steve, link me to them please; can not find any...

What I meant was you don't need to go running to Mike as I can put cards together fairly quickly. In fact I might do this in a minute while I'm waiting for the paint to dry on my Viking Shieldmaidens.

[Nightbomber]

I see Steve! Great! Take your time I admire yours and Mike's magic graphic skills equally .

[flash]

Am I missing something here? This only appears to refer to the Natter.

It is - I suggested Andy looked into it thinking he'd be able to get ideas for manoeuvre decks for rocket driven aircraft, as that was the original question he posed, and maybe other things like gliding so he could make his own Komet rules but apparently not.

[Guntruck]

I see Steve! Great! Take your time I admire yours and Mike's magic graphic skills equally .

OK, work in progress but it's a start:

It is - I suggested Andy looked into it thinking he'd be able to get ideas for manoeuvre decks for rocket driven aircraft, as that was the original question he posed, and maybe other things like gliding so he could make his own Komet rules but apparently not.

Still useful info on it Dave, especially if you have a couple of them

[flash]

I thought so too, max speeds about the same ? 959 km/h (596 mph) for the Komet, 1,000 km/h (621 mph) for the Natter ?
Ceilings about the same 12,100 m (39,700 ft) v 12,000 m (39,370 ft);
Climb rates not quite the same 50 metres per second (9,800 ft/min) at 1000 meters; 160 metres per second (31,000 ft/min) at 12000m.) v 190 m/s (37,000 ft/min)

[Nightbomber]

Rep guns jammed Steve, so sorry.
Great work indeed, old chap!

[OldGuy59]

Rep guns jammed Steve, so sorry.
Great work indeed, old chap!

Mine ain't. Repped.

[Nightbomber]

Thanks Steve, the card looks perfect!

[Nightbomber]

The Komets have landed.
October workbench is ready.
Can not wait to hear them wizzzing through the air!



I must say the models look very good. Lots of details for a 1:200 scale, recess lines are nicely carrved.
All six for a price of one ARES Lancaster plus shipping.

I picture them as an intercepting force for one Prague 2017 Con scenario...hmm...

[Teaticket]

Nice. Now I'm drooling over Komets and I haven't even yet painted up any Swallows!

[Guntruck]

The Komets have landed.
October workbench is ready.
Can not wait to hear them wizzzing through the air!



I must say the models look very good. Lots of details for a 1:200 scale, recess lines are nicely carrved.
All six for a price of one ARES Lancaster plus shipping.

I picture them as an intercepting force for one Prague 2017 Con scenario...hmm...

Six????? Now that is just taking the p***

[Nightbomber]

Six????? Now that is just taking the p***

Just went the whole hog .

[Nightbomber]

A book on Komet (tech data, pics, combat, markings) bought. Great stuff!

[Jager]

Sorry, been absent for a while.
I looked at the FW data sheet on the Me.163, and it's actually a maneuverable little thing
Based solely on those charts, the easiest thing to do (and this assumes the plane is under power while on the board) is to take a B deck, scan it, and print out a set 1.85 times as large.
No slow speed allowed. While it's roll rate is very good, I'm not sure it could side slip. And reversals would have to violate the slow card after the reversal card.
Climb rate would be on the order of 1 or 2 levels per climb card
All in all, how could it be fought while under ;power??
Karl

[Nightbomber]

At last Karl has returned with his analytic mind. Thanks for you post, it's very important. The B card enlargement idea is smart!

[Guntruck]

Sorry, been absent for a while.
No slow speed allowed. Karl

I would suggest the straight/turn cards should include slow speed (possibly not enlarged x1.85), used only if limited fuel rules are used and the pilot is going downhill fast to get out of the way of the avenging Mustangs and Thunderbolts. And I'm not too convinced that it could do a reversal manoeuvre given it's speed.

[Guntruck]

OK, what's the thinking on this?



I've upped the B Deck movement by 86%, and put a glide line in yellow to differentiate from full power. However the glide is the same as what the slow move is for B deck x 86%, which I think is too fast for a glide. Maybe make the glide line the same length as the normal B deck slow speed (below)?



If you want to print a copy off, it's here

[Nightbomber]

Thanks Steve! Will gladly print it! Rep!

[Jager]

I was remembering that there were issues with rocket fuel exploding if you started and stopped in flight; looked at a number of sources (on and off line), and can't finds any such, though it would explode at the drop of a hat at any time
Given the lack of drag, the looking at the FW rules for this, it would take a good number of turns to drop to half speed by gliding, even if you climbed unpowered. And they didn't slow down fast, unless you lost energy with a climb.
Even assuming half it's fuel (under 8 minutes) was used to reach attack altitude, it would maintain high speed during a game. without introducing an accel/decal system, leave the speed on high.
If you're playing a "catch 'em when they land" scenario, use slow speed, either a normal B deck, or a slow speed only B deck.

Karl

[Guntruck]

Folks often accuse me of not playing with a full deck, so here's the full deck

It was all going swimmingly until I realised the card wasn't wide enough for the sideslip manoeuvre, so I had to resize all of the cards again

I'll do a back for the cards shortly.

[Kugelblitz]

I recall this also, in that the binary fuel was prone to what we call "an explosive start" and also if the plane takes an engine hit of any kind it should go boom unless it is gliding. The T-stoff and S-stoff fuels were also capable of dissolving anyone who was unlucky enough to get splashed. Ground crew and pilots wore special clothing.

[Jager]

I recall this also, in that the binary fuel was prone to what we call "an explosive start" and also if the plane takes an engine hit of any kind it should go boom unless it is gliding. The T-stoff and S-stoff fuels were also capable of dissolving anyone who was unlucky enough to get splashed. Ground crew and pilots wore special clothing.

Not a bad HR for this plane.
Karl

[Nightbomber]

I recall this also, in that the binary fuel was prone to what we call "an explosive start" and also if the plane takes an engine hit of any kind it should go boom unless it is gliding. The T-stoff and S-stoff fuels were also capable of dissolving anyone who was unlucky enough to get splashed. Ground crew and pilots wore special clothing.

I like it too. Noted for my Prague game.

[Future Pilot]

Andy - Mad Charly posted 'Rocket Jet Rules for use in 1945" here in the files - they may help in your quest.

Can't read it In a different language I think Italian. And I can't read or speak Italian.

[Flying Helmut]

Can't read it In a different language I think Italian. And I can't read or speak Italian.

Log onto your computer with 'Google Chrome'

Open the File

Right click, then click on "Translate to English"

enjoy!

[Naharaht]

Considering the extremely explosive nature of the fuel, is 17 damage points perhaps too high? Also the limited fuel rules for the Me 163 need also to state that all the fuel must be used before the plane can land. They were known to explode, if any fuel remained on landing.

[Future Pilot]

Log onto your computer with 'Google Chrome'

Open the File

Right click, then click on "Translate to English"

enjoy!

Thanks a lot! It worked!