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Thread: Tripods & Triplanes - An invasion from Mars

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Remind me NOT to invite you (Chris) to my birthday when I turn 5! I wanna have fun! : )

    I am almost desperate enough waiting for the BOB set that I may dig out my Mattel Thing maker this week and go with the aliens instead!
    BoB Starter Set US Release Date: 20 March 2017.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Well, you see: I've had this problem before -- when I tried putting together the _Space:1889_/_Richthofen's War_ crossover (_Space:1914_?), and discovered there wasn't really any way to have the airplanes seriously damaging the aerial gunboats; they might be able to machine-gun unarmored secondary and tertiary gun mounts, but the main hulls and armored guns would be impervious.
    Take a leaf out of that series Falling Skies - make bullets out of the same alien metal scavenged from Tripods knocked out by other means - necessity is the mother of invention.

  3. #103

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    It's a problem that actual aviators and inventors would try to solve. With skygalleys, it would probably be some form of aerial torpedo, and cannon (the Davis gun would probably be made to work).
    I've been pondering the path of weapons evolution in the world of Leviathans ( http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/leviathans/ )
    with literal floating battleships
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  4. #104

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    Non-viable, on all counts.

    First, allow me to introduce a gunboat from _S:1889_ itself, as an example of a target:

    _Reliant_: 800 tons loaded. Hull armor value: 2. Two wing sponsons, armor value 3; each with one 6" gun. One 4" in stern tower, armor 0. Two 6-lb. Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon forward, armor 0. Eight Nordenfelt 5-barrel MGs, 4 each side, armor 0. Eight Hale Rocket batteries, armor 0, 4 each Up and Down.

    Second: Here's the Armor Penetration values for the weapons systems you mention (listed as [short range Pen]/[long range Pen]):

    1-pdr. Pom-Pom (eq. to 37mm): 0/0
    Hale Rocket (eq. to Le Prieur): 0/0
    Liquid Fire: 0/NA [Range of 0]
    Bomb Load, 5 tons: 1/NA [note that against flying targets, one cannot use "water-hammer effect" to inflict damage with near-hits]

    Third: How Armor Penetration works:

    If Armor exceeds Penetration, damage is halved (for ".5" results, roll 1d6; 4+ inflicts a hit). If Armor is more than 2x Penetration weapon does no damage. For weapons with Pen 0, Armor 1 halves damage, Armor 2 or more prevents damage.

    All that being so: Only a direct hit with a Bomb will inflict any damage to the hull of _Reliant_, and that only half-damage. The wing sponsons are completely impervious to anything an airplane could carry. The worst an airplane could inflict on _Reliant_ is to destroy the unarmored 4" gun; after that, the only viable targets are the tertiary rockets, revolvers and MGs.

    And _Reliant_ is an *early* design; more modern designs, like the _Intrepid_-class aerial cruisers, are bigger, carry armor value 3 at least, and have all main and most secondary guns protected by armor value 3. (I won't get into the weight savings of conversion to oil turbines from coal-fired boilers, which makes the armor situation even worse.)

    Summary: Most WW1 acft. cannot harm WW1 armored ships, unless said acft. carried an extensive bomb load. (Note that the only ships sunk by acft. in WW1 were either support craft, or U-boats; and all were sunk by bombing, not by gunfire.) The bombers which could carry a sufficient bomb load were too slow to catch an aerial gunboat; the bombers which could catch the aerial gunboats couldn't carry enough bombs to kill one. Bombers viable against "proper" warships wouldn't come until the 1930s.

  5. #105

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    Is this just a plane against pods game?

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyking20 View Post
    Is this just a plane against pods game?
    Have you looked at the links?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    It's a problem that actual aviators and inventors would try to solve. With skygalleys, it would probably be some form of aerial torpedo, and cannon (the Davis gun would probably be made to work).
    I've been pondering the path of weapons evolution in the world of Leviathans ( http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/leviathans/ )
    with literal floating battleships
    Karl
    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Non-viable, on all counts.

    First, allow me to introduce a gunboat from _S:1889_ itself, as an example of a target:

    _Reliant_: 800 tons loaded. Hull armor value: 2. Two wing sponsons, armor value 3; each with one 6" gun. One 4" in stern tower, armor 0. Two 6-lb. Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon forward, armor 0. Eight Nordenfelt 5-barrel MGs, 4 each side, armor 0. Eight Hale Rocket batteries, armor 0, 4 each Up and Down.

    Second: Here's the Armor Penetration values for the weapons systems you mention (listed as [short range Pen]/[long range Pen]):

    1-pdr. Pom-Pom (eq. to 37mm): 0/0
    Hale Rocket (eq. to Le Prieur): 0/0
    Liquid Fire: 0/NA [Range of 0]
    Bomb Load, 5 tons: 1/NA [note that against flying targets, one cannot use "water-hammer effect" to inflict damage with near-hits]

    Third: How Armor Penetration works:

    If Armor exceeds Penetration, damage is halved (for ".5" results, roll 1d6; 4+ inflicts a hit). If Armor is more than 2x Penetration weapon does no damage. For weapons with Pen 0, Armor 1 halves damage, Armor 2 or more prevents damage.

    All that being so: Only a direct hit with a Bomb will inflict any damage to the hull of _Reliant_, and that only half-damage. The wing sponsons are completely impervious to anything an airplane could carry. The worst an airplane could inflict on _Reliant_ is to destroy the unarmored 4" gun; after that, the only viable targets are the tertiary rockets, revolvers and MGs.

    And _Reliant_ is an *early* design; more modern designs, like the _Intrepid_-class aerial cruisers, are bigger, carry armor value 3 at least, and have all main and most secondary guns protected by armor value 3. (I won't get into the weight savings of conversion to oil turbines from coal-fired boilers, which makes the armor situation even worse.)

    Summary: Most WW1 acft. cannot harm WW1 armored ships, unless said acft. carried an extensive bomb load. (Note that the only ships sunk by acft. in WW1 were either support craft, or U-boats; and all were sunk by bombing, not by gunfire.) The bombers which could carry a sufficient bomb load were too slow to catch an aerial gunboat; the bombers which could catch the aerial gunboats couldn't carry enough bombs to kill one. Bombers viable against "proper" warships wouldn't come until the 1930s.
    So, you want to mash two alternate universes together, and leave the technology of both undeveloped toward each other? No wonder you can't make them fit.

    From the start of WWI in 1914, to the end in 1918, the advancements in aerial technology were profound. If there had been bombers with plate steel sheets for armor, someone would have invented armor piercing aerial torpedoes to take them down. Really, if you can float battleships in the air, you can float bombs and torpedoes.

    Did you know that ship avoidance radar was demonstrated in Germany in 1904? Wikipedia - Christian Hülsmeyer

    With floating monstrosities overhead, someone could have been forced into developing radar detection and radar gun direction much earlier than aircraft early warning systems that appeared in WWII in our universe. And, again, with the ability to float massive weight without significant cost in the Space 1889 universe, it wouldn't matter how much the equipment weighed if you wanted in an aircraft. Would a radar-guided, anti-gunboat Kettering bug be possible? Why not?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    So, you want to mash two alternate universes together, and leave the technology of both undeveloped toward each other? No wonder you can't make them fit.

    From the start of WWI in 1914, to the end in 1918, the advancements in aerial technology were profound. If there had been bombers with plate steel sheets for armor, someone would have invented armor piercing aerial torpedoes to take them down. Really, if you can float battleships in the air, you can float bombs and torpedoes.

    Did you know that ship avoidance radar was demonstrated in Germany in 1904? Wikipedia - Christian Hülsmeyer

    With floating monstrosities overhead, someone could have been forced into developing radar detection and radar gun direction much earlier than aircraft early warning systems that appeared in WWII in our universe. And, again, with the ability to float massive weight without significant cost in the Space 1889 universe, it wouldn't matter how much the equipment weighed if you wanted in an aircraft. Would a radar-guided, anti-gunboat Kettering bug be possible? Why not?
    You have indeed stated my thoughts; where would we be in 1914, if we have Leviathans in 1910? Would airplanes as we know them even exist, with the lift assist of electroid available?
    Imagine how flight would change if the lift of the wings were augmented with a small tank of electroid.
    I wish I had time to go down that path.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    You have indeed stated my thoughts; where would we be in 1914, if we have Leviathans in 1910? Would airplanes as we know them even exist, with the lift assist of electroid available?
    Imagine how flight would change if the lift of the wings were augmented with a small tank of electroid.
    I wish I had time to go down that path.
    I thought about that, as well -- in the case of _S:1889_, the limiting factor is "tech advancement". Even when accounting for _S:1889_'s tech advancement rules (there's items which PCs can "invent" using the Scientific Research rules, to include Synthetic Liftwood), there's still no way for a WW1-era airplane to inflict meaningful damage on something the size and tech-level of a _WotW_ Martian tripod. (There are tripods in _S:1889_, but they are Human tech, and are more like light armored cars with legs.) That has to wait for an airplane which can carry a 3" cannon, or some sort of guided bomb of at least 1,000 lbs.

    I did eventually run across a game with suitable aircraft, and weaponry which could take on a flying gunboat: _Crimson Skies_. Acft. in that game could carry firepower suited to anti-ship work (tho' they used it for killing 1,000' Zeppelins), including an "aerial torpedo" which was essentially a 1,000-lb. bomb with wings and a propeller (think "more-advanced Kettering Bug"), and the "Beeper/Seeker" system for guiding rockets onto target (yes, I did come up with a rule for mounting Seeker heads on Aerial Torpedoes; the Line Editor never forgave me). Sadly, that was over a decade after I'd set aside the _RW_/_S:1889_ crossover; and the _CS_ acft. were closer to WW2 tech than WW1.

    The idea of "liftwood or similar precluding or delaying invention of the airplane" is interesting; but those *without* access to liftwood are going to be looking for alternatives, and even those *with* access may also look elsewhere (the supply of liftwood is limited -- it only grows in certain area of Mars, and said areas are overrun with "High Martian" savages). Germany, for ex., uses hydrogen airships extensively (not least because its main offworld colony is on Venus, where liftwood doesn't work); when the USA discovers helium in Texas (historically, in 1890...), it will have an alternative to liftwood as well. And once materials tech starts discovering materials like duraluminum, and engine tech advances to where gas engines have high-three-digit, or even four-digit, HP ratings, fixed-wing acft. become a viable notion -- even a 100-MPH aerial gunboat is going to be in deep yogurt when confronted by a squadron of 300-MPH attack aircraft.

    So, in the end, the problem with the _RW_/_S:1889_ crossover was "what was invented, and when". In my case: Acft. existed, but due to their flimsy nature, they were mainly used for recon work; if one saw an aerial gunboat, one booked it in the opposite direction. However, trench-strafing, photo-recon, and bombing non-armored targets (train depots, etc.) were the purview of airplanes; aerial gunboats were retained for tasks like long-duration scouting ahead of a battle fleet (Jutland, for ex.), or for aerial insertion of infantry over trench lines or bodies of water (yes, Britain gets invaded by air in 1914; it got really bloody really fast). But full-on airplane-vs.-aerial-gunboat action had to wait for the second edition of The War To End All Wars.

  10. #110

    Default My Tripods?

    Please see attached Inspired by the art work from Jeff Wayns War of the Worlds album cover it would be great to have some rules to get these back on the table I made these from bits and pieces years ago.
    The main body is from a sweet dispenser and the legs aluminium tubing.
    I think they look OK and will do the job?
    Attached Images      

  11. #111

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    Awesome! The elves loved it and want to move to the UK to help protect civilization!

  12. #112

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    Out of this planet Kevin Love the candy stripe Goering going for the Tripod .


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  13. #113

  14. #114

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    So wouldn't it be cool to have a Martian design competition for all those wonderful interpretations? . . . must be my meds, did I type this out loud?

  15. #115

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    Sign me up Clipper! (I was going to do one for fun anyway....)

  16. #116

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    Nice tripods, Kevin.
    I can definitely see them in a game.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  17. #117

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    I'm a little confused by the Tripod With Six Legs, but otherwise: Dashed fine work.

  18. #118

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    Those tripods are terrific, Kevin.
    They really look like the Jeff Wayne version.

    I had a PC Game (actually I still have it) that was based on the Jeff Wayne version happening in the late 1890s.
    It got pretty hectic when the Martian attacks came.

  19. #119

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    Since the 'All Quiet on the Martian Front' miniatures are available again, that could be a source for home-grown games until Ares releases its versions of the tripods...

    Kevin - I love your tripods - they are totally straight off the front of the record album!

    All the best,
    Matt

  20. #120

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    So how many different Martian units are we thinking? My movie memory only had one type, what will the game have? Kevin looks to have two . . .

  21. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    So how many different Martian units are we thinking? My movie memory only had one type, what will the game have? Kevin looks to have two . . .

    There were four types in the playtesting set: Tripods & Triplanes - An invasion from Mars - Post 63
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  22. #122

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    Anyone have a clue how tall they should be? I have an itch to build one now......

  23. #123

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    A different take on differing technologies. First off We are not talking about straight adaptation of Wells' text in any scenario. We know how that ended up. If we were to assume that their heat rays were some sort of advanced directed energy weapon; that the Martians, like our navies, had moved away from kinetic weapon protection in favor of speed, light-weight, and offensive capabilities; then there is an opportunity for old school projectile weapons to be effective.
    Last edited by BB401; 03-17-2017 at 21:14.

  24. #124

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    Ziggy and I had a chat . . .

    First we need to get some official permission I would guess, so I will suggest we get a nod from Andrea and Keith,

    Second choose a scale shall we say 1/144" scale for the ground mat? That would make a 50 ft high building 4.6" high, say you choose to make your tripod 75ft tall = 6 1/4" tall? That keeps the planes to scale 1:1 as well. Just thinkin' . . .

    Third, I propose we set a date, every one who wants to get creative can post pictures of a 4 martian tripods set.

    Fourth someone to set up a voting page

    Fifth, the winner with most votes, I would put up a prize of say a box of Mars Bars!

    What say you?

  25. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    I'm a little confused by the Tripod With Six Legs, but otherwise: Dashed fine work.
    The tripod with six legs is the catcher and is shown in the artwork in the album booklet.
    It is the one that runs around picking people up and putting them in a basket for blood draining?

    Thanks for all your comments most appreciated

    Regards Kev

  26. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Ziggy and I had a chat . . .

    First we need to get some official permission I would guess, so I will suggest we get a nod from Andrea and Keith,

    Second choose a scale shall we say 1/144" scale for the ground mat? That would make a 50 ft high building 4.6" high, say you choose to make your tripod 75ft tall = 6 1/4" tall? That keeps the planes to scale 1:1 as well. Just thinkin' . . .

    Third, I propose we set a date, every one who wants to get creative can post pictures of a 4 martian tripods set.

    Fourth someone to set up a voting page

    Fifth, the winner with most votes, I would put up a prize of say a box of Mars Bars!

    What say you?
    Gets my vote!

  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    So how many different Martian units are we thinking? My movie memory only had one type, what will the game have? Kevin looks to have two . . .
    I'd have to re-read the book, but I do remember 3 types. The classic fighting tripod, the catcher (as Kevin mentioned), and a engineering vehicle (the latter one maybe memory overlay from AQOTMF game).

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLt Brown View Post
    The tripod with six legs is the catcher and is shown in the artwork in the album booklet.
    It is the one that runs around picking people up and putting them in a basket for blood draining?
    OK -- I'm not really familiar with the "album" in question, tho' The SO might be.

  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I'd have to re-read the book, but I do remember 3 types. The classic fighting tripod, the catcher (as Kevin mentioned), and a engineering vehicle (the latter one maybe memory overlay from AQOTMF game).

    Karl
    This is "The Catcher"
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  30. #130

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    Ancient document unearthed! Found this when I moved a shelf of books in the library upstairs, dated 1964 with my amazingly wiggly name penned into the opening cover:



    And the well worn back cover, I remember reading this at 8 years old, in bed, under the covers with a flashlight . . .



    Now I gotta play the game . . . !

  31. #131

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    There is a website devoted to covers of War of the Worlds, one cover for each year since it was first published. It even has the Classics Illustrated comic cover which I remember from the sixties. Of course, I cannot seem to find it at the moment.

  32. #132

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    I wasn't going to go here but Miniature Market had a sale on a set of 3 tripods last week. Had to order them.

  33. #133

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    I assume they were 'All Quiet on the Martian Front' tripods, Peter?! I think I saw the same sale and was tempted; unlike you, I resisted the urge - but that may not last...

    All the best,
    Matt

  34. #134

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    AQMF has a number of different Martian units. I have a friend that plays that game and he really enjoys it. I did a repaint of some Wings planes and he has incorporated them into the game.

  35. #135

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    Chris this is the album that has been mentioned. it was made in 1978 and follows the story of the Martian invasion.

  36. #136

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    Kevin I forgot to mention those are really great Martin machines. Well done for a scratch build.

  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
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    Chris this is the album that has been mentioned. it was made in 1978 and follows the story of the Martian invasion.
    That *is* the one The SO was reviewing -- I can't recall if it made the Audio Theatre track at the 2015 Worldcon or not, tho'.

  38. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
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    Chris this is the album that has been mentioned. it was made in 1978 and follows the story of the Martian invasion.
    That *is* the one The SO was reviewing -- I can't recall if it made the Audio Theatre track at the 2015 Worldcon or not, tho'.

    Also: Pondering WW1 tech vs. Martian, and remembering there was *one* acft. builder whose designs could have been adapted to carry heavier firepower, tho' still not quite as heavy as would be needed -- Hugo Junkers, particularly his all-metal design; the thick wing could be used to store fuel and such, or heavier guns. Engine power would be an issue, tho'.

  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    I assume they were 'All Quiet on the Martian Front' tripods, Peter?! I think I saw the same sale and was tempted; unlike you, I resisted the urge - but that may not last...

    All the best,
    Matt
    Yes Matt, those were the ones. I figure if I'm going to have dragons in my games I might as well have Martians too. Ken nudged me to run a WW2 dragon game at Origins so it was easy for me to fall over this. Missed another sale over the weekend as I was a bit too busy at Cold Wars to check email.

  40. #140

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    That old book was a good find, David!

  41. #141

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    Giant Apes, Dragons and Martians oh my. We can bring a lot to this game. I'm surprised no one has thought of a decent Cthulhu reference yet.

    I remember reading War of the Worlds as an early teen.

    If I'm not mistaken I may still have my vinyl record, cassette and cd. Plus I have it on my Spotify stream. I love that album.

  42. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Giant Apes, Dragons and Martians oh my. We can bring a lot to this game. I'm surprised no one has thought of a decent Cthulhu reference yet.
    Unfortunately, most Lovecraftian entities are Immune To Bullets -- of any size....

  43. #143

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    Very true

  44. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Unfortunately, most Lovecraftian entities are Immune To Bullets -- of any size....
    But not the special bullets designed and used in this game!!!

  45. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    Name:  img082 (2).jpg
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    Chris this is the album that has been mentioned. it was made in 1978 and follows the story of the Martian invasion.
    A great album; I heard it first in College, and have the CD somewhere; might need to download it on the computer this week
    Best song, of course, is Thunderchild!
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    But not the special bullets designed and used in this game!!!
    Actually, most Eldritch Horrors are immune to physical damage of *any* kind -- hell, some of them can ignore *non*-physical damage! Short of using the airplanes themselves to create warding signs in the air, or to fly top cover for the masses of chanting people on the ground....

  47. #147

  48. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJG173 View Post
    There is a website devoted to covers of War of the Worlds, one cover for each year since it was first published. It even has the Classics Illustrated comic cover which I remember from the sixties. Of course, I cannot seem to find it at the moment.
    You mean the one in this post? Link: Post #14
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  49. #149

    Default War of the Worlds Catcher?

    Morning all
    I have looked out the war of the worlds albam and found the picture I used for the catcher see attached.
    I like the way this page is going and cannot wait to see the rules for the game

    Regards Kev

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  50. #150

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    Better stock up on the G & T now, just in case they arrive without notice . . .

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