Albatros C.III, Roland C.II and Rumpler C.IV at the front numbers

[john snelling]

I like the choice of the Albatros C.III that WOG decided upon. Now we have German 2 seater from 31 Dec 1915 to the eow.

31 Dec 1915
AEG C.I 26
AGO C.I 14
AGO C.I 2
Albatros C.I 278
Albatros C.III 12
Aviatik C.I 81
Aviatik C.II 0
DFW C.I 25
LVG C.I 45
LVG C.II 138
LVG C.IV 1
Otto C.I 9
Rumpler C.I 29
Total 660

28 Feb 1916
AEG C.I 34
AGO C.I 22
AGO C.II 1
AGO C.III 1
Albatros C.I 349
Albatros C.III 51
Aviatik C.I 161
Aviatik C.II 7
DFW C.I 0
LVG C.I 25
LVG C.II 214
LVG C.IV 1
Otto C.I 1
Rumpler C.I 67
Total 934

30 Apr 1916
AEG C.I 34
AEG C.II 1
AGO C.I 15
Albatros C.I 213
Albatros C.III 208
Aviatik C.I 150
Aviatik C.II 6
DFW C.I 0
LVG C.I 11
LVG C.II 249
LVG C.IV 1
Otto C.I 1
Roland C.II 17
Rumpler C.I 120
Total 1029

30 Jun 1916
AEG C.I 0
AGO C.I 23
Albatros C.I 165
Albatros C.III 300
Aviatik C.I 219
Aviatik C.II 0
DFW C.I 2
LVG C.I 4
LVG C.II 255
LVG C.IV 1
Roland C.II 35
Rumpler C.I 144
Rumpler C.Ia 1
Total 1184


31 Aug 1916
AEG C.I 1
AGO C.I 16
Albatros C.I 143
Albatros C.III 354
Albatros C.V 65
Albatros C.VI 8
Aviatik C.I 183
Aviatik C.II 0
Aviatik C.III 26
DFW C.I 2
LVG C.I 5
LVG C.II 220
LVG C.IV 27
Roland C.II 37
Roland C.IIa 13
Rumpler C.I 202
Total 1302

31 Oct 1916
AEG C.I 1
AEG C.IV 9
AGO C.I 9
Albatros C.I 125
Albatros C.III 320
Albatros C.V 57
Albatros C.VI 71
Albatros C.VII 94
Aviatik C.I 177
Aviatik C.II 0
Aviatik C.III 47
DFW C.I 9
DFW C.V 21
LVG C.I 1
LVG C.II 195
LVG C.IV 60
Roland C.II 45
Roland C.IIa 11
Rumpler C.I 231
Rumpler C.Ia 2
Total 1487

31 Dec 1916
AEG C.I 1
AEG C.IV 42
AGO C.I 8
AGO C.IV 8
Albatros C.I 90
Albatros C.III 320
Albatros C.V 47
Albatros C.VI 53
Albatros C.VII 249
Aviatik C.I 110
Aviatik C.II 22
Aviatik C.III 22
DFW C.I 6
DFW C.V 42
LVG C.I 1
LVG C.II 155
LVG C.IV 76
Roland C.II 40
Roland C.IIa 24
Rumpler C.I 190
Rumpler C.Ia 1
Rumpler C.III 1
Total 1508

28 Feb 1917
AEG C.I 1
AEG C.IV 90
AGO C.I 5
AGO C.IV 25
Albatros C.I 52
Albatros C.III 214
Albatros C.IV 1
Albatros C.V 50
Albatros C.VI 111
Albatros C.VII 372
Albatros C.Lf 3
Aviatik C.I 63
Aviatik C.II 62
Aviatik C.III 20
DFW C.I 5
DFW C.V 79
LVG C.I 0
LVG C.II 87
LVG C.IV 58
Roland C.I 21
Roland C.II 53
Roland C.III 1
Rumpler C.I 145
Rumpler C.Ia 1
Rumpler C.III 42
Total 1561


30 Apr 1917
AEG C.I 1
AEG C.IV 124
AGO C.I 1
AGO C.IV 1
Albatros C.I 37
Albatros C.III 174
Albatros C.IV 2
Albatros C.V 60
Albatros C.VI 21
Albatros C.VII 296
Albatros C.VIII 1
Albatros C.X 70
Albatros C.Lf 1
Aviatik C.I 27
Aviatik C.II 50
Aviatik C.III 6
DFW C.I 3
DFW C.V 341
LVG C.I 1
LVG C.II 45
LVG C.IV 39
Roland C.I 9
Roland C.II 42
Roland C.III 0
Rumpler C.I 107
Rumpler C.Ia 52
Rumpler C.III 22
Rumpler C.IV 24
Total 1557

30 Jun 1917
AEG C.IV 127
AGO C.IV 19
Albatros C.I 46
Albatros C.III 107
Albatros C.IV 0
Albatros C.V 57
Albatros C.VI 3
Albatros C.VII 165
Albatros C.VIII 1
Albatros C.X 98
Albatros C.XII 41
Aviatik C.I 12
Aviatik C.II 34
Aviatik C.III 2
Aviatik C.V 1
DFW C.I 1
DFW C.V 839
Hannover C.I 2
LVG C.II 20
LVG C.IV 14
Roland C.I 1
Roland C.II 1
Roland C.II 12
Rumpler C.I 55
Rumpler C.Ia 162
Rumpler C.III 15
Rumpler C.IV 122
Total 1966

31 Aug 1917
AEG C.IV 63
AGO C.IV 90
Albatros C.I 13
Albatros C.III 29
Albatros C.IV 2
Albatros C.V 29
Albatros C.VI 1
Albatros C.VII 74
Albatros C.VIII 1
Albatros C.IX 2
Albatros C.X 47
Albatros C.XII 93
Aviatik C.I 1
Aviatik C.II 4
Aviatik C.V 1
DFW C.I 1
DFW C.V 1057
Hannover C.I 2
LVG C.II 8
LVG C.IV 1
LVG C.V 98
Roland C.II 1
Roland C.IIa 1
Rumpler C.I 37
Rumpler C.Ia 129
Rumpler C.III 7
Rumpler C.IV 257
Total 2046


31 Oct 1917
AEG C.IV 88
AGO C.IV 42
Albatros C.I 4
Albatros C.III 15
Albatros C.V 8
Albatros C.VII 33
Albatros C.VIII 1
Albatros C.IX 2
Albatros C.X 26
Albatros C.XII 92
Aviatik C.I 1
Aviatik C.II 1
Aviatik C.V 1
DFW C.V 910
LVG C.II 2
LVG C.V 219
Pfalz C.I 3
Rumpler C.I 40
Rumpler C.Ia 30
Rumpler C.III 1
Rumpler C.IV 225
Rumpler C.V 3
Total 1737

31 Dec 1917
AEG C.IV 68
AGO C.IV 13
Albatros C.I 2
Albatros C.III 5
Albatros C.V 5
Albatros C.VII 11
Albatros C.IX 1
Albatros C.X 11
Albatros C.XII 66
DFW C.V 845
LVG C.II 3
LVG C.V 446
Pfalz C.I 24
Rumpler C.I 16
Rumpler C.Ia 5
Rumpler C.III 1
Rumpler C.IV 208
Rumpler C.V 9
Rumpler C.VII 17
Rumpler C.IX 20
Total 1797


28 Feb 1918
AEG C.IV 40
AGO C.IV 3
Albatros C.I 0
Albatros C.III 5
Albatros C.V 5
Albatros C.VII 6
Albatros C.IX 1
Albatros C.X 4
Albatros C.XII 48
DFW C.I 1
DFW C.V 614
LVG C.V 504
Pfalz C.I 11
Rumpler C.I 11
Rumpler C.Ia 3
Rumpler C.III 1
Rumpler C.IV 161
Rumpler C.VII 48
Rumpler C.IX 13
Total 1475


30 Apr 1918
AEG C.IV 26
Albatros C.I 1
Albatros C.III 1
Albatros C.VII 4
Albatros C.IX 1
Albatros C.XII 36
DFW C.V 665
LVG C.V 565
Pfalz C.I 7
Rumpler C.I 9
Rumpler C.Ia 3
Rumpler C.III 1
Rumpler C.IV 187
Rumpler C.VII 94
Rumpler C.IX 11
Total 1611


30 Jun 1918
AEG C.IV 29
Albatros C.III 2
Albatros C.XII 20
DFW C.V 623
Halber C.V 10
LVG C.V 312
LVG C.VI 173
Pfalz C.I 9
Rumpler C.I 5
Rumpler C.Ia 2
Rumpler C.III 1
Rumpler C.IV 182
Rumpler C.V 4
Rumpler C.VII 112
Rumpler C.IX 5
Total 1488

31 Aug 1918
AEG C.IV 34
Albatros C.III 1
Albatros C.VII 1
Albatros C.XII 15
DFW C.V 620
Halber C.V 192
LVG C.V 133
LVG C.VI 400
Pfalz C.I 6
Rumpler C.I 4
Rumpler C.Ia 1
Rumpler C.IV 110
Rumpler C.V 6
Rumpler C.VII 85
Rumpler C.IX 2
Total 1610

[Carl_Brisgamer]

I agree John the Albatros C.III was a good choice. We just need an early war Allied two seater now to complement - BE2, FE, Nieuport 10, Voisin, Caudron, Farman - the list is expansive, just one to start would be great.

[Jager]

I agree John the Albatros C.III was a good choice. We just need an early war Allied two seater now to complement - BE2, FE, Nieuport 10, Voisin, Caudron, Farman - the list is expansive, just one to start would be great.

Isn't that what we're getting with the Strutter?
Karl

[Carl_Brisgamer]

The Sopwith was in service with one RNAS flight only by the end of April 1916, and it did not enter wider service with the RFC and French Aviation Militaire until July-August 1916. I see the Strutter as akin to the Roland - it was so good it was also used as an escort fighter when first introduced.

I think a 1915 two seater to complement the Albatros you could fly with the Morane and against the Fokker Eindekker would be welcome.

[gully_raker]

Its the BE 2 that we really, really need.
The first British aircraft to reach France & the mainstay of recon & artillery spotting through Bloody April & beyond until the advent of the RE 8.
The BE is a MUST HAVE!

[john snelling]

What about the FE.2?

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Its the BE 2 that we really, really need.
The first British aircraft to reach France & the mainstay of recon & artillery spotting through Bloody April & beyond until the advent of the RE 8.
The BE is a MUST HAVE!

HERE HERE!!

The BE2 was used by some units until the very end of the war.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

What about the FE.2?

The FE2 was also used throughout the war, continuing on as a night bomber after its daylight career ended.

I think the BE2 is a better choice for the RFC as it was doing the observation business in 1914 and was still getting it done in 1918.

[Jager]

HERE HERE!!

The BE2 was used by some units until the very end of the war.

Target, target, target...

Karl

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Target, target, target...

Karl

It would also give a new fire arc base for aircraft with the observer in the front cockpit, which could be adapted to a number of early war aircraft.

[Flying Helmut]

It would also give a new fire arc base for aircraft with the observer in the front cockpit, which could be adapted to a number of early war aircraft.

Good point! I'm about to commission my first BE2, and have no idea about the fire arc from the front-seat observer (except for the oblique arc to port, angled to miss the prop; I have a couple of Keith's 'A.A.' bases)

[flash]

Good point! I'm about to commission my first BE2, and have no idea about the fire arc from the front-seal observer (except for the oblique arc to port, angled to miss the prop; I have a couple of Keith's 'A.A.' bases)

Have a look at these threads Tim, the BE can have a rear arc too, I can't find it at present but there is a cracking photo from the observers position looking over his gun to the rear of a BE2c.
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...2304-BE2c-card
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...18499-RAF-BE2c


There we go

[Flying Helmut]

Thanks Dave!

Very helpful.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

The observer can shoot at targets to the rear if they are higher (more altitude pegs) and there are narrow arcs to the left and right rear at the same altitude. On some BE2s the gun could also be moved to fire forward in narrow arcs to the front left and right of the prop but only at the same altitude. I have a diagram somewhere I will upload in the morning.

[flash]

The observer can shoot at targets to the rear if they are higher (more altitude pegs) and there are narrow arcs to the left and right rear at the same altitude. On some BE2s the gun could also be moved to fire forward in narrow arcs to the front left and right of the prop but only at the same altitude. I have a diagram somewhere I will upload in the morning.

It's clear from the photos that with the gun in this position the gunner could engage targets at the same level Carl, with a fairly decent arc of fire.
I use a standard rear arc with the usual blind spot applied. Some earlier ones had a four point mount so the gunner could move the gun about firing past the prop to the front and out the back to one side or the other. Think Max worked up a card for it many moons ago but the rear arcs could be bigger.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

It's clear from the photos that with the gun in this position the gunner could engage targets at the same level Carl, with a fairly decent arc of fire.
I use a standard rear arc with the usual blind spot applied. Some earlier ones had a four point mount so the gunner could move the gun about firing past the prop to the front and out the back to one side or the other. Think Max worked up a card for it many moons ago but the rear arcs could be bigger.

I have to disagree Dave. You can see the enemy but you cannot fire an MG with the muzzle that close to the pilot. I have had a couple of nasty personal experiences with automatic weapons discharged close to my head (blank and ball) and I can tell you the pilot could not do their job with the Lewis blasting away with a foot or two of his face.

[john snelling]

I have to disagree Dave. You can see the enemy but you cannot fire an MG with the muzzle that close to the pilot. I have had a couple of nasty personal experiences with automatic weapons discharged close to my head (blank and ball) and I can tell you the pilot could not do their job with the Lewis blasting away with a foot or two of his face.

Excellent point. Do you think with regularity one could ever get use to it?

[flash]

I have to disagree Dave. You can see the enemy but you cannot fire an MG with the muzzle that close to the pilot. I have had a couple of nasty personal experiences with automatic weapons discharged close to my head (blank and ball) and I can tell you the pilot could not do their job with the Lewis blasting away with a foot or two of his face.

Feel free to disagree Carl but firing the gun from that position the muzzle will be a couple of feet from the driver's head whichever way you point it so I say you're wrong.
And I know what you're saying having had similar experiences myself. Perhaps they were made of sterner stuff in those days....
"No, no, sergeant, don't fire at the nasty German trying to kill us you'll give me a headache !"

Seems the pilots of the FE2d weren't so fussy where the gunner was concerned !!

[Carl_Brisgamer]

There's a difference shooting off to the side even by a few inches with the muzzle blast directed away from the pilot. If the front seat observer's fun position made no difference it does beg the question why did all air servces bother to redesign their aircraft and the observer in the rear cockpit i.e. BE2 - RE.8, Nieuport 10 - Nieuport 10AR, Albatros B series - Albatros C series?

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Feel free to disagree Carl but firing the gun from that position the muzzle will be a couple of feet from the driver's head whichever way you point it so I say you're wrong.
And I know what you're saying having had similar experiences myself. Perhaps they were made of sterner stuff in those days....
"No, no, sergeant, don't fire at the nasty German trying to kill us you'll give me a headache !"

Seems the pilots of the FE2d weren't so fussy where the gunner was concerned !!

Not quite the same circumstances considering the position of the Lewis on the FE

[flash]

T... If the front seat observer's fun position made no difference it does beg the question why did all air servces bother to redesign their aircraft and the observer in the rear cockpit i.e. BE2 - RE.8, Nieuport 10 - Nieuport 10AR, Albatros B series - Albatros C series?

Maybe it was so the observer could use the camera rather than the pilot and observe without the wings being in the way... as well as opening up arcs of fire even further.

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...ory-be2-series

...Not quite the same circumstances considering the position of the Lewis on the FE

It is when you look at the position of the pilots Lewis gun if the gunner is seated.. and they did fire them past the gunners ears !

[Kustenjaeger]

Greetings

From what I can ascertain as 1917 progressed there were fewer and fewer Albatros C III on the Western Front. However, there is apparently a film at the IWM on Cambrai including men looking at a crashed CIII in November - though this might not be a new crash.

So ideally one would want something like a Rumpler C.IV (?) for 1917-18 artillery observation work?

Regards

Edward

[Naharaht]

Having the pilot at the front of the aircraft also improved his visibility for landing and take-off.

['Warspite']

Its the BE 2 that we really, really need.
The first British aircraft to reach France & the mainstay of recon & artillery spotting through Bloody April & beyond until the advent of the RE 8.
The BE is a MUST HAVE!

I would agree wholeheartedly. In addition to the BE2, it was also the basis for other machines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...Factory_B.E.12