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Thread: WOG using Xwing dice

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    We know where the X-Wing designers got their inspiration for that game Angiolillo, even if they will never admit the fact.
    to that.

    I am a fan of Star Wars in general but it really bugs me that they have to squeeze out every possibility to make money with this theme.
    There used to be a game colled STAR WARS pocketmodel TCG (which by the way is also pretty similar to the new X-Wing )
    which itself was a clone of "Pirates of the spanish main" that I played a lot before Wizkids went out of business.
    At some point I personally think "enough is enough". And steeling other peoples ideas to make profit is also not the best move to make.

    There is a big discussion here in Germany about the copyrights of boardgames (games). The problem is that the term copyright in Germany is not the same as in the US.
    Here a distinction is drawn between "copyright" and "author's rights". The problem with boardgames in general is that the "author's rights" are not part of the copyright.
    There even was a petition of the game designers/authors to change this and protect their "author's rights on games.
    You will probabely know at least one of those games designers.

    That said, my personal opinion is that I let X-Wing be X-Wing with all of its rules that include dice, cardboard templates,... and stay with the real and original stuff WoG.
    Furthermore I also think that making game mechanics to complicated kills what makes the WoG games so great, which is the simplicity that let's new players come into the games so fast.
    (and of course veterans not having to carry around a pell with an endless list of rules )

    So, X-Wing rules (dice, ...) not for WoG please.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    That is correct as well. However I meant just adding new mod cards (like gunpods to Bf 109K) to new planes is something like X/W idea of customizing new models
    I only say that if in my post you can see Wings of War cards from 2004 for specific starship and spacepilots skill, 2004 Wings of War pilot skills, a 2010 example of Wings of War planes customizations (as for the Staaken, Caproni, HP O/400 - but this has been done before, and most rulebooks also incude other "specials" that are now on our models' cards as diving bombing abilities and disposable fuel tanks), early 2012 skill cards (to go further into that - they came with pilot cards of famed aces at the moment of their career in which they flew our models) and so on... I'd say that putting a few of those skills and special rules in Airplane Packs (besides than in specific card decks, in rulebooks and in support sites as we always did and our fans always did since WoW was born) is just going on with the developement direction that we started 12 years ago. Not stealing ideas from another, far later game.
    By the way, my proposal to bring such customization adding special cards to airplane card decks is from 2007, when we were working on the first Wings of War Deluxe/Wings of War Miniatures line. Not implemented then for timing reasons - a too late proposal, I had been told at that time. But I would not be surprised to discover that it has also been discussed with FFG at that time, if this is in any way relevant.

    I'd also add that WoW was born with customized planes (cards, and afterward models) in mind. This is not so an obvious choice, in simulation games, so do not take it for granted. Look at the Blue Max boardgame: all Sopwith Triplanes are standard 1 machinegun planes. Even the last edition that tells you that one of them is the famed Collishaw N533 "Black Maria", known for being with twin-machineguns from the factory, then it gives N533 single-machineguns stats for the game, as for any other Triplane. With WoW and later WGF/WGS, if you buy an early production Roland, an Italian ace's Hanriot, a Doolittle Raid's B-25, a Dambusters Lancaster, a Kiel raid DH4 or whatever, you find it already customized and not with just standard statistics for a generic plane. Their airplane cards are not the same of other planes of the same model.
    So in WoW you always had choices (if historically documented) to customize planes when you chosed the single aircraft/pilot, when you chosed if to add pilots' skills, when you chosed if to add special weaponary (as let's say rockets), when you chosed if to add specific optional rules for that plane. We proposed it officially, and many fans too did it with house rules. Now we are going on with all this. Nothing that can be defined "copying" from a 2013 game, IMHO.
    Period. Go back discussing dice and forgive me for the interruption. I did not want to steal your thread, but just to answer a comment about copying that looked quite far from true facts and from easily accessible evidence.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 07-25-2016 at 08:25.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashdash View Post
    to that.

    I am a fan of Star Wars in general but it really bugs me that they have to squeeze out every possibility to make money with this theme.
    There used to be a game colled STAR WARS pocketmodel TCG (which by the way is also pretty similar to the new X-Wing )
    which itself was a clone of "Pirates of the spanish main" that I played a lot before Wizkids went out of business.
    At some point I personally think "enough is enough". And steeling other peoples ideas to make profit is also not the best move to make.

    There is a big discussion here in Germany about the copyrights of boardgames (games). The problem is that the term copyright in Germany is not the same as in the US.
    Here a distinction is drawn between "copyright" and "author's rights". The problem with boardgames in general is that the "author's rights" are not part of the copyright.
    There even was a petition of the game designers/authors to change this and protect their "author's rights on games.
    You will probabely know at least one of those games designers.

    That said, my personal opinion is that I let X-Wing be X-Wing with all of its rules that include dice, cardboard templates,... and stay with the real and original stuff WoG.
    Furthermore I also think that making game mechanics to complicated kills what makes the WoG games so great, which is the simplicity that let's new players come into the games so fast.
    (and of course veterans not having to carry around a pell with an endless list of rules )

    So, X-Wing rules (dice, ...) not for WoG please.
    Guys, I 'm not saying to make it official or even change the way you play the game.

    It was for the small group that wanted to try something a little different. Players that wanted the fighter to have more flexibility and that are more powerful then the non-fighters. It also allows aces to rule the skies. It allowed me, a solo player, to recreate some of the exploits of Fonck and Bishop in shooting down a two seater or two in a scenario and can be stopped only if escorts showed up.

    I just wanted to share an idea that gave me some joy.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Like any rules in any game Andrzej I think because the ace skills are not used all that often in 'standard' games players think they are more complex than they actually are. The Briswingsofwar campaign I ran back in 2010-11 had quite a few aces and it did not take long to get used to the mechanic when we started flying them regularly.

    I am also starting to become wary of too many house rules in the game. I am not talking about unofficial aircraft but changing basic mechanics. I know every player has different preferences about the system, but too much tinkering changes the flavour and the flow of the game. It can also make it inaccessible to new players who start to wonder, if these guys need so many house rules what's wrong with the original ruleset?

    If I am running a public game my preference is to always go RAW. Added levels of complexity do not necessarily improve what is essentially a pretty simple and elegant system.
    Besides using ace skills in some Skype games I host, I'm now actually running games with people that have WoG experience here in Comox. So, I have people draw damage cards or chits, with anyone drawing special damage being awarded an ace skill.

    To hand out the skills, I came up with a quick selection process. Participants drew 'B' damage cards. If they drew a special damage, they got an Ace Skill. For this game (Link: SND - International Skype Game Invitation - Stop the Pigeon!), I used the following skills:

    Boom: . . . . . . . . . . Lucky Pilot
    Fire: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Daredevil
    Rudder Jam Left: . . Acrobatic Pilot
    Rudder Jam Right: . Height Control
    Gun Jam Red: . . . . Sniper (Due to the way damage is done over Skype, this was replaced with Bullet Checker in our game)
    Gun Jam Green: . . . Bullet Checker
    Pilot Wound: . . . . . Strong Constitution
    Engine Damage: . . Perfect Aim
    Smoke: . . . . . . . . . Itchy Trigger Finger
    This keeps the skills rare, but players start to see their use and benefit. Not all players that get the skills get to use them, though. Paul [tikkifriend] got the Acrobatic Pilot skill in one of our WWII Skype games, and took an engine hit before he could plan an Immelmann. The skill was then useless.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #55

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    I think I've set the record for a post the got the most large font replies.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Guys, I 'm not saying to make it official or even change the way you play the game.

    It was for the small group that wanted to try something a little different. Players that wanted the fighter to have more flexibility and that are more powerful then the non-fighters. It also allows aces to rule the skies. It allowed me, a solo player, to recreate some of the exploits of Fonck and Bishop in shooting down a two seater or two in a scenario and can be stopped only if escorts showed up.

    I just wanted to share an idea that gave me some joy.
    John, please don't get me wrong.
    I was just giving my opinion and I did understand that you just wanted to try somethingt different by implementing some new house rules.

    Everyone can play the games as he likes it, but I just wanted to emphasize that I prefer playing the game with the original rules.
    The players in our group are all busy working and find some time to play this great game once a week in the evening for around 1.5 hrs.
    So we like to keep it simple (work is complicated enough ). That's all.

    The other point was that I don't like transfering rules from other games, especially when the game they are taken from uses a theme that
    is so popular and yet using game mechanics very close to those that someone else used for his game.
    That doesn't seem right to me and that is also why I (just for my part) wouldn't implement those rules in our house rules.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    ace rules need some tweaking or houseruling IMHO, for counting/discarding ace counters is fiddly and is hardly seen in games.
    I think a really simple solution would be to make the ace counters have the reset symbol on the other side instead of needing multiple counters.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    We know where the X-Wing designers got their inspiration for that game Angiolillo, even if they will never admit the fact.
    yeah i guess you could call near plagiarism "inspiration"

  9. #59

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    Hmm, different combat system, different movement system, has a pilot skill and customisation system that WOW didn't (but which it seems to be growing, manifesting in card based additions in just the same way as X Wing did earlier), packaging very similar to Bachmann pre-painted airfcraft models from the 1970s...

    Remind me, which bit did they plagiarise?

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Hmm, different combat system, different movement system, has a pilot skill and customisation system that WOW didn't (but which it seems to be growing, manifesting in card based additions in just the same way as X Wing did earlier), packaging very similar to Bachmann pre-painted airfcraft models from the 1970s...

    Remind me, which bit did they plagiarise?
    Don't you remember the origin story for X-wing? FFG asks the Wings of War crew to design a space combat game (it was not originally Star Wars, I think Battlestar Galactica may have been mentioned) then FFG gets the Star Wars licence, pulls the pin on the original project, and suddenly a few months later X-wing is announced, with enough changes it legally does not have to acknowledge any input from the Wings of War crew.

    Big companies play hardball, little guys get whacked.

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Don't you remember the origin story for X-wing? FFG asks the Wings of War crew to design a space combat game (it was not originally Star Wars, I think Battlestar Galactica may have been mentioned) then FFG gets the Star Wars licence, pulls the pin on the original project, and suddenly a few months later X-wing is announced, with enough changes it legally does not have to acknowledge any input from the Wings of War crew.

    Big companies play hardball, little guys get whacked.
    The whole world seems to be that way. The rich get away with everything and the little pays the price.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Don't you remember the origin story for X-wing? FFG asks the Wings of War crew to design a space combat game (it was not originally Star Wars, I think Battlestar Galactica may have been mentioned) then FFG gets the Star Wars licence, pulls the pin on the original project, and suddenly a few months later X-wing is announced, with enough changes it legally does not have to acknowledge any input from the Wings of War crew.

    Big companies play hardball, little guys get whacked.
    Of course I remember the story. It get regurgitated here regularly. But what did they plagiarise? Nothing as far as I can see. They looked at a Star Wars game based on WoW, didn't like the end result and came up with something else. Happens all the time, in all businesses, everywhere. It happened to me at the beginning of the year. The trick is to recognise it and move on. In my case I was angry for a while, very angry. Then I thought about it more rationally, let it go and moved, especially when I realised my going on about it was (a) just getting me down and (b) was making me look like a bit of an obsessive saddo. Maybe the WOW/WOG community should do the same in this case.

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Happens all the time, in all businesses, everywhere.
    Just two lines of a reminder. FFG asks the mechanics for WoW - Battlestar Galactica in 2007, then for WoW - X-Wing in 2010. We arrive to a written agreement. Before it's finalized, they decide not to sign it and to try to buy the publishing house instead. Negotiation fails and this brings, in the end, to the closing of the publishing house. And at this point, FFG decides to go on with a game clearly derivative of WoW in mechanics, look, marketing model, just skipping the licensing that they had been loking for for four years. No, it does not happens all the time. Not in these terms.
    If this is plagiarism or not, if this is legal or not, if this is ethic or not has been already discussed, if anybody is interested he can find old threads with all the details needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    It get regurgitated here regularly. ... The trick is to recognise it and move on. In my case I was angry for a while, very angry. Then I thought about it more rationally, let it go and moved, especially when I realised my going on about it was (a) just getting me down and (b) was making me look like a bit of an obsessive saddo. Maybe the WOW/WOG community should do the same in this case.
    David, please notice that the community was going on peacefully and the case would not have been mentioned at all if you did not make a maybe unnecessary comment putting "X Wing", "copying" and "WoG" in the same sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Not such a risky idea now that WOG is copying X Wing's ideas for pilot skills and extra rules
    And in quite an unprecedented order, by the way, and this is why I felt the need to answer that pilot skills and planes customizations are as old as the first edition of WoW. If you just stuck to the "WOG using Xwing dice" topic, the subject would not have been discussed. If I read well, it's been you to "reguirgitate" it.
    Back to the topic of dice, now?
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 07-25-2016 at 22:30.

  14. #64

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    Ok, so I'm the arsehole. Fine.

    No, it does not happens all the time. Not in these terms.
    Yes, actually it does. Sorry, been there, suffered that, got the T shirt.

    EDI\t - Oh, and are you going to withdraw the pilot ability cards and mechanisms to adapt aircraft using cards that expand the rules because they are "clearly derivative" of the way FFG does it in X Wing?

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Oh, and are you going to withdraw the pilot ability cards and mechanisms to adapt aircraft using cards that expand the rules because they are "clearly derivative" of the way FFG does it in X Wing?
    David, read the posts above. There are pictures of cards for Wings of War, from 2004 to Spring 2012 (X-Wing has been released in September 2012), with pilot abilities and and rules expansions to adapt aircraft. Ironically, even a card with a specific Wings of War "mechanism to adapt aircraft using cards that expand the rules" for a X-Wing fighter, 12 years old. I do not understand what you think that FFG invented: If the pilot skills, the mechanisms to adapt the planes or the fact that they are written on cards. But we already had them all in 2004.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Ok, so I'm the arsehole. Fine.
    You are implying there is one, here around. I'd say there aren't at all, and we can go on on friendly terms as before.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 07-25-2016 at 23:13.

  16. #66

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    Fact is: X-Wing is the inferior system. The basic game mechanics are copied from Nexus Games.

    Collisions in space are ridiculous and the 2D System is not satysfiying. Minor pilots always have the option to block the better ones, stealing their action by simply maneneuvering in their flight path.
    Wave after wave is published - meanwhile you can upgrade your fighters with whatever you want.
    You loose a lot of time with choosing cards for pilots, equipment & crew.
    The game itself lost lot of it's charme when the cum fraction entered the game. Of course the collection fever is the same, like for other miniature games.

    Dice can be very cruel, cancelling your whole pilot abilities.

    I sold my X-Wing stuff but I still have the option to play some games with other gaming buddies from time to time, so I have a good insight.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 07-26-2016 at 01:07.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  17. #67

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    To all of you: have fun with dice, if you appreciate them. I decided for cards instead because they allow more secrecy on received damage, and that's realistic. I also think that a progressive, cumulative, covered damage on a plane that can sustain 10/16 points is less frustrating than a hit-or-miss dice system on crafts suffering 2 or 3 points. I prefer to give players the satisfation of a perfect maneuvre that allows you to inflict two damage cards, maybe even with a bonus when optional rules are in use (a satisfation you get even in the very rare cases when both cards are 0s), instead than the frustration of a perfect maneuvre that has no effects because of a bad dice roll - and X-Wing's dice rolls are far more either-utterly-bad-or-totally-good that WoW/WG's cards or chits draws, hence the more frequent frustration.

    Besides, drawing a card and keeping it is something useful for the "hidden complexity" i tried to get in my games. In a traditional air simulation, instead than doing that you'd roll dice and consult charts and tables to see if you hit, maybe do it separately to see how much damage you did, maybe do it on another chart to see if there are special damages and which, maybe do it again to see if the firer jammed his guns, then take paper and pencil to record all that. I wanted a very easy and quick game, so I wanted people to do all that with a single gesture. But here you are all experts, if you want to houserule the game you are more than able to handle the increased complexity.

    Most players seems to have a taste for dice rolling. Several people seems to miss something if they play a boardgame or a miniature game without any dice. My previous airplane games had the old, beloved 6-sided dice - aviation boardgames and even aviation choose-your-own-adventure gamebooks: In future designs, I will strongly consider putting them back.

    Edit - crosspost with Sven. Glad to see that a X-Wing expert's opinioin is in tune with mine, even if my experience with that game is limited.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 07-25-2016 at 23:27.

  18. #68

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    I prefer to give players the satisfaction of a perfect manoeuvre that allows you to inflict two damage cards, maybe even with a bonus, instead than the frustration of a perfect manoeuvre that has no effects because of a bad dice roll
    Nailed it !

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    David, read the posts above. There are pictures of cards for Wings of War, from 2004 to Spring 2012 (X-Wing has been released in September 2012), with pilot abilities and and rules expansions to adapt aircraft. Ironically, even a card with a specific Wings of War "mechanism to adapt aircraft using cards that expand the rules" for a X-Wing fighter, 12 years old. I do not understand what you think that FFG invented: If the pilot skills, the mechanisms to adapt the planes or the fact that they are written on cards. But we already had them all in 2004.



    You are implying there is one, here around. I'd say there aren't at all, and we can go on on friendly terms as before.
    The point is, nothing in WOG, WOW, X Wing etc. is all that original. There are previous examples of everything in both games stretching back to the 1960s and probably way beyond that. So endless bleating about "plagiarism" is utterly pointless. You might as well bitch about Revell plagiarising the Airfix approach to making plastic model kits.

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    The point is, nothing in WOG, WOW, X Wing etc. is all that original. There are previous examples of everything in both games stretching back to the 1960s and probably way beyond that. So endless bleating about "plagiarism" is utterly pointless. You might as well bitch about Revell plagiarising the Airfix approach to making plastic model kits.
    Of course there are elements of previous games in any given system, like there are common combinations of musical notes in songs or themes and scenes in movies. The argument could go round and round but at the end of the day one party involved in the incident feels aggrieved and while some may not agree I don't think we have the right to disregard their perspective.

    Gamers are generally a creative bunch and as a result they will introduce house rules to make a game more enjoyable for them. I think the mechanics of the Wings of War/Glory system are great as written and most of my house rules over the years have revolved around campaigns and pilot progression. Others like to enhance the simulation aspect and other still want to make dramatic changes (dice instead of cards for example) which meet their needs. I think it is a credit to base concept and components of 'Wings' that it can meet all these diverse needs.

  21. #71

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    Personally, when I'm playing with dices, it must be a clever system. Like in D-Day Dice, for example. I'm not interested in idea to play WoG with dices and have the same probability for (for example) fire every turn. Play with them, if you want, but for me, keeping damage cards is of one of benefits of the game.

    PS: Is it necessary to argue about 4+ years old occasions?

  22. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    To all of you: have fun with dice, if you appreciate them. I decided for cards instead because they allow more secrecy on received damage, and that's realistic. I also think that a progressive, cumulative, covered damage on a plane that can sustain 10/16 points is less frustrating than a hit-or-miss dice system on crafts suffering 2 or 3 points. I prefer to give players the satisfation of a perfect maneuvre that allows you to inflict two damage cards, maybe even with a bonus when optional rules are in use (a satisfation you get even in the very rare cases when both cards are 0s), instead than the frustration of a perfect maneuvre that has no effects because of a bad dice roll - and X-Wing's dice rolls are far more either-utterly-bad-or-totally-good that WoW/WG's cards or chits draws, hence the more frequent frustration.

    Besides, drawing a card and keeping it is something useful for the "hidden complexity" i tried to get in my games. In a traditional air simulation, instead than doing that you'd roll dice and consult charts and tables to see if you hit, maybe do it separately to see how much damage you did, maybe do it on another chart to see if there are special damages and which, maybe do it again to see if the firer jammed his guns, then take paper and pencil to record all that. I wanted a very easy and quick game, so I wanted people to do all that with a single gesture. But here you are all experts, if you want to houserule the game you are more than able to handle the increased complexity.

    Most players seems to have a taste for dice rolling. Several people seems to miss something if they play a boardgame or a miniature game without any dice. My previous airplane games had the old, beloved 6-sided dice - aviation boardgames and even aviation choose-your-own-adventure gamebooks: In future designs, I will strongly consider putting them back.

    Edit - crosspost with Sven. Glad to see that a X-Wing expert's opinioin is in tune with mine, even if my experience with that game is limited.
    I play the vast majority of my games using the standard rules. For games that are fighters vs fighters I do not suggest using the x-wing dice house rule.

    I was trying to give more power to the fighter and less to the multi-seaters and since I already had x-wing dice why let them go to waste. I still use all the cards just in a slightly different way. I think I accomplished this goal.

    I'm just real glad I am not a paid psychic because this went in a direction I never thought of.
    Last edited by john snelling; 07-26-2016 at 01:57.

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    To all of you: have fun with dice, if you appreciate them. I decided for cards instead because they allow more secrecy on received damage, and that's realistic. I also think that a progressive, cumulative, covered damage on a plane that can sustain 10/16 points is less frustrating than a hit-or-miss dice system on crafts suffering 2 or 3 points. I prefer to give players the satisfation of a perfect maneuvre that allows you to inflict two damage cards, maybe even with a bonus when optional rules are in use (a satisfation you get even in the very rare cases when both cards are 0s), instead than the frustration of a perfect maneuvre that has no effects because of a bad dice roll - and X-Wing's dice rolls are far more either-utterly-bad-or-totally-good that WoW/WG's cards or chits draws, hence the more frequent frustration.

    Besides, drawing a card and keeping it is something useful for the "hidden complexity" i tried to get in my games. In a traditional air simulation, instead than doing that you'd roll dice and consult charts and tables to see if you hit, maybe do it separately to see how much damage you did, maybe do it on another chart to see if there are special damages and which, maybe do it again to see if the firer jammed his guns, then take paper and pencil to record all that. I wanted a very easy and quick game, so I wanted people to do all that with a single gesture. But here you are all experts, if you want to houserule the game you are more than able to handle the increased complexity.

    Most players seems to have a taste for dice rolling. Several people seems to miss something if they play a boardgame or a miniature game without any dice. My previous airplane games had the old, beloved 6-sided dice - aviation boardgames and even aviation choose-your-own-adventure gamebooks: In future designs, I will strongly consider putting them back.

    Edit - crosspost with Sven. Glad to see that a X-Wing expert's opinioin is in tune with mine, even if my experience with that game is limited.
    that "hidden complexity" and the swiftness of damage resolution are 2 of the things that i think propel wings from a good game into the realm of a great game!

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Fact is: X-Wing is the inferior system. The basic game mechanics are copied from Nexus Games.

    Collisions in space are ridiculous and the 2D System is not satysfiying. Minor pilots always have the option to block the better ones, stealing their action by simply maneneuvering in their flight path.
    Wave after wave is published - meanwhile you can upgrade your fighters with whatever you want.
    You loose a lot of time with choosing cards for pilots, equipment & crew.
    The game itself lost lot of it's charme when the cum fraction entered the game. Of course the collection fever is the same, like for other miniature games.

    Dice can be very cruel, cancelling your whole pilot abilities.

    I sold my X-Wing stuff but I still have the option to play some games with other gaming buddies from time to time, so I have a good insight.
    i agree whole heartedly sven. im not saying xwing and star trek attack wing are bad games. im just saying neither can hold a candle to wings.

  25. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I do realize I'm walking on thin ice here,...
    Well, I guess you somehow saw that one coming

    I think Andrea brought it to the point in a very diplomatic way.
    Everybody who wants to use dice in WoG should do so.

    The problem here I think was that the copying card was held up pretty quick,
    implying that WoG is copying X-Wing.
    I think that Andrea explained the facts in-depth.

    Chaps, have fun palying the game and if you prefer to add dice, then...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards,
    Sascha

  26. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    that "hidden complexity" and the swiftness of damage resolution are 2 of the things that i think propel wings from a good game into the realm of a great game!
    Thanks for the comment. A lot depends also on what kind of game you want to design. Wings of War was born with the desire to get near to the simplicity of Leonardi's Ace of Aces (a masterpiece) but with far more scalability for high numbers of players and planes. Huge battles have been actually played with no downtime at all - far larger than I ever expected, the largest up to now being a 100 planes battle played on a long table along the Arno river, in Florence, in just one hour. But we also enjoyed many 10-20 people battles at Mod Con in Italy and at the Prague Summer Con, this April, completing each mission in the very strict time windows programmed for them, something like 90-120 minutes. This is totally impossible with X-Wing, with these numbers of miniatures involved. And I think that even without slowing down the game with the initiative and movement/fire sequences that X-Wing introduced to the system, dice are already a factor that hinder such scalability and introduce downtime while uninvolved players wait for others to resolve their combats. People that appreciate the possibility of massive games will probably prefer to stick to a very swift damage resolution system. People into tournament-style, two-players games with few ships would probably care less about the extra time needed, and being in two will not experience any downtime.

  27. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    ...

    Besides, drawing a card and keeping it is something useful for the "hidden complexity" i tried to get in my games. In a traditional air simulation, instead than doing that you'd roll dice and consult charts and tables to see if you hit, maybe do it separately to see how much damage you did, maybe do it on another chart to see if there are special damages and which, maybe do it again to see if the firer jammed his guns, then take paper and pencil to record all that. I wanted a very easy and quick game, so I wanted people to do all that with a single gesture. But here you are all experts, if you want to houserule the game you are more than able to handle the increased complexity.

    ...
    This is what I like about WoW/WoG! I couldn't get my brain around the exact reason I favoured the mechanics of WoW/WoG, I just liked it. This puts in words that enthusiasm of the game I love to share with others.

    Andrea, "thanks" isn't a big enough word to express my appreciation for your game. I've admired the mechanics from the first time I played the game, and you just touched on another level of complexity hidden under the simplicity. I foster the tactics of bluffing about damage card draws with new players, so on some level I got this. Now I have the Designer's Notes on why.

    Thanks, yet again!
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  28. #78

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    Going back to the dice vs cards argument, the purist in me says dice, since the card system is as fundamentally flawed as the chit system in SGN from a statistical perspective. And the very first game of WOW I ever played used dice instead of cards (using a percentage system - it also used 1/72 models and double sized manoeuvre cards)

    That said I love the card system because the "no dice" ethos of the game is what makes it fun. And fun is why I play this particular game. If I want a more accurate flight and combat model I'll use another set. For fun, friendly social games you can't beat WGF

  29. #79

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    In my opinion, cards and chits are not flawed per se. The fact is that previous draws change the chances of hitting of following ones, at least until the plane/ship is destroyed and its cards/chits go back among the others. In game terms, this can even be considered a warranty of more balanced game sessions (you will never see too many 0s or explosions or 5s or pilot hits in the same game), even if it is not so realistic in simulation terms. So somebody would like to lessen or avoid that.
    A way to feel this effect far, far less is to increase the number of card packs/chit sets. This is why European casinos use from 4 to 6 and more decks of cards to play Blackjack. Having several packs mixed together makes every draw far less relevant on the composition of the rest of the deck.
    Another way is to draw cards, write down effects in secret (as in old fashioned simulations) and mix back cards in the deck. This totally avoids any influence of previous draws on following ones. Not as elegant as keeping the cards, but you still pack the to hit/how many hits/special damages/jamming in a single draw and you just have to mark that on paper.
    Keeping cards to track damages has another advantage - even if they keep secrecy on damages suffered by each plane, they can be showed at the end of the game (usually a very fun moment of revelations and teasings) and this keeps cheating to a minimum, since sooner or later your opponents see what you draw. But I am personally not too concerned about cheating. Almost all WoW/WG players I know are men of honor, real knights of the air, and even tournament are quite always run with fair play and very few fussing.
    (untrustful tournament organizers can always replace cards wioth a fixed amount of damages depending on range, anyway)

  30. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    A way to feel this effect far, far less is to increase the number of card packs/chit sets. This is why European casinos use from 4 to 6 and more decks of cards to play Blackjack. Having several packs mixed together makes every draw far less relevant on the composition of the rest of the deck.
    I have used double 'A' and Double 'B' decks for this very reason for a few years now! It marvelously creates uncertainty in players that there may be another 'Boom' card in the pack!!!
    PS I always love getting the game designer's view on their game, especially when they are good, clever and kind people like Andrea.

  31. #81

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    In my opinion, cards and chits are not flawed per se.
    I meant statistically flawed, which they undoubtedly are. If I were to use such a system for some of the professional "wargame" activities that I take part in the scrutineers would quite rightly call foul.

    They work absolutely fine from a game perspective.

  32. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    [...]
    Most players seems to have a taste for dice rolling. Several people seems to miss something if they play a boardgame or a miniature game without any dice. My previous airplane games had the old, beloved 6-sided dice - aviation boardgames and even aviation choose-your-own-adventure gamebooks: In future designs, I will strongly consider putting them back.

    [...]
    Most? That may not be as prevalent as some think? I would like to share my limited observations. To be sure both dice and drawing cards has a random element to them. As Angiolillo has pointed out the fact that the deck is finite tends toward a more balanced distribution of damage. It does not guarantee it but as one goes through the deck you will, by its nature, see all of the possibilities. Dice have a statistical distribution but as most know every single roll of the dice as the same odds as the roll before it. Also there have been numerous stories about how dice failed for a game or an entire evening. Yet some prefer the random distribution.

    But as long as I have been on FFG X-Wing forum people have bemoaned the dice failing them. Additionally for the last several X-Wing releases/waves there have been upgrade cards to mitigate or fully eliminate the need for dice. Accuracy Corrector for example cancels the dice and applies two hits, in the up coming release there are two cards wherein one adds a hit and another evades one, both automatically under the right circumstances.

    Completely a matter of taste and I tend to like, with exceptions, both; it depends on the game.

    My point is that even in a game based on dice, and maneuvers of course, many of the more popular upgrades eliminate dice randomness.


    [Edit] P.S. I kind of like Wings of Glory just the way it is. Including cards for aces abilities or abilities in general, the damage deck, etc. If I want to play a different game I will. But I like this one too so please don't go changing it too much.

    Thanks, I like the game
    Last edited by Ken at Sunrise; 07-26-2016 at 13:28.

  33. #83

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    Well ok, maybe dice lovers are not too many. Maybe they are just very loud!
    In Italy we have no prejudices against cards in wargaming. In the early '80s I played a ot "Posto di combattimento", a detailed WW2 Naval Wargame using poker cards. Author was Alberto Santoni, famed naval historian and Naval History professor at the Italian Navy Academy in Leghorn (among the others). Actually, a customized deck of cards is even finer that dice for simulating chances - you can easily build a deck with the precise chances of hitting, missing, doing a specific amount of damage or a specific special damage, jamming that you want. With dice, you must usually compromise. Or use charts and tables, that are not the handiest and smoothest tools to use in a fast paced game.
    Statistically, you can ditinguish between "statistically independent events", when one event des not affect the probability of other events, and not indipendent events. Dice rolls and card draws are both statistically independent events, if you shuffle back the cards in the deck after each draw - statistically, a deck of poker cards is then identical to a 52-sided die. Card draws are not indipendent events if you do not put the cards back in the deck after each draw, hence some distortion (from a strict simulation point of view) if you use them to simulate statistically indipendent events such as hitting or missing a target with plane machineguns; this distortion diminuishes if the deck size increase when compared with the number of cards used (if you use two or more damage cards decks for a dogfight including few planes, or more decks with more planes) and if you allow reshuffles every now and then (as each time a plane is destroyed).

  34. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    But as long as I have been on FFG X-Wing forum people have bemoaned the dice failing them.
    In my opinion the problem is not only that dice are used, but the very hit-or-miss way in which they are used. That is also linked to the scarce number of sustainable damages given to each spaceship. When dice fail, your whole turn is useless. Even if you planned and moved in the best way, that's easier than in WoW/WG IMHO - from this point of view, X-Wing system matches our most basic WW2 rules, and post-movement adjustment make things even easier. So you often feel that you made your best, but it did bring no results at all. At least in my experience. But probably not only mine, hence the frequent moanings.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 07-27-2016 at 05:30.

  35. #85

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    I think I created .................
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    How do I stop it?????????

  36. #86

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    lol, the genie is well out of the bottle



    Dice and card draws are just two different options of achieving the same end point, just like manoeuvre cards and written movement plots. Each option has its plus points and its downsides, and like anything else in life the trick is to determine where one option works well or badly and choose accordingly. In some cases a blend of different options may work well; several of my sets of rules use card draws for some aspects, dice for others (e.g. cards to determine unit activation or random events, dice to determine hits and effects).

    I guess one plus side of a "dice and tables" approach is the removal of the need to invest in cards in the first place. There are a few sets of rules out there these days that require players to purchase and use special decks of cards for different units/factions/sides etc. and they can be quite pricey. To some this is an attraction especially if the cards look good, to others its an unnecessary and unwelcome expense that impacts on their ability and/or desire to play. And I guess you always have the risk of losing a card here and there (I'm sure many of us have got to a stage in a game and discovered that a card in a manoeuvre deck is missing at a crucial time!).

  37. #87

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    But as long as I have been on FFG X-Wing forum people have bemoaned the dice failing them.
    lol, wargamers have been saying that for as long as there have been wargamers And to be fair you get the same feelings sometimes with your card and chit draws (in the former case though along the lines of "why did I have to draw the 5 and the 4 card?!")

    One way to get away from this sort of thing I guess is by playing "chanceless" games such as Diplomacy. At least there your success or failure depends on the choices yo make compared with those of your opponent (and you still see "why did I do that???!!" expressions and outbursts in tht game)

    Bottom line, wargamers are past masters at coming up with good reasons why luck/chance/sanity deserted them at the crucial moment, no matter what the game system or mechanic

  38. #88

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    Very true, David. In any case, with some careful game designing you can act on several elements and influence randomness, its consequences, its perception y players. That's why there is always somebody blaming luck, but in any case some games are criticized as more luck-dependant than others.

  39. #89

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    I'm sure I played a version of Professore Santoni's naval game at during a sort of international naval wargaming convention at the USNA in Annapolis in the mid-1980s. I remember the cards - and now have to look for my notes.

  40. #90

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    You guys wanna talk dice nightmares? In Axis & Allies War at Sea to get a successful Torpedo attack you had to roll a six. Guess what I could never get? Tons of 4's and 5's (which each granted one Success for beating Armor ratings, while 6's were 2 Successes), but never a 6--so I adapted my fleets to All Gun and Bomb Attacks All The Time, only taking torpedo-bombers to help with ASW.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  41. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Nailed it !
    It seems like I never get to "nail it". I always get two zeros no matter what deck I get to pick from and my opponent just stands there and snickers at me. I just want to take those two cards and .....................

    There is no little cute head that shows him cutting off another heads ears, gouging out his eyes and slowly scalping him, hmm I wonder why?
    Last edited by john snelling; 07-27-2016 at 12:53.

  42. #92

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    Well, even if the target draws two 0s in Wings, the firer does not know that and can be proud of having guessed well the position and delivered the maximum number of cards available.

  43. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Well, even if the target draws two 0s in Wings, the firer does not know that and can be proud of having guessed well the position and delivered the maximum number of cards available.
    True Dat!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  44. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Mimicking the all-too-frequently seen "no sails" meme
    "all-too-frequently" ?

    Sorry, didn't realise.

    I'll cut back.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  45. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    "all-too-frequently" ?

    Sorry, didn't realise.

    I'll cut back.
    It's not you, Tim.
    It's everybody else flogging that "mere"

  46. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Well, even if the target draws two 0s in Wings, the firer does not know that and can be proud of having guessed well the position and delivered the maximum number of cards available.
    I should try that.........

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  47. #97

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Herkybird View Post
    I have used double 'A' and Double 'B' decks for this very reason for a few years now! It marvelously creates uncertainty in players that there may be another 'Boom' card in the pack!!!
    PS I always love getting the game designer's view on their game, especially when they are good, clever and kind people like Andrea.
    We have always used Double (& sometimes even TRIPLE) Decks at our Club Games.
    It works!

  48. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    It seems like I never get to "nail it". I always get two zeros no matter what deck I get to pick from and my opponent just stands there and snickers at me.
    I would love to play cards against your opponent, they obviously have no poker face! Barry Gullyraker is the best 'zero magnet' I have ever come across but you can never tell what he picks up. I just assume they are all zeroes and celebrate when it turns out I actually damaged his aircraft. Preferably by setting it alight!!
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 09-13-2016 at 00:32.

  49. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    I don't think that the use of attack/evade/defense dice add to the game in a positive way. It works for space games where you are using blasters and missiles over vast distances and the actual movement of the miniature plays a minor role. IMHO for Wings of Glory your chance to evade attack are the manoeuvre cards you select. I always know when I have played a good game of Wings of Glory by the number of damage cards I have taken compared to those I have dished out - in this case less is more. Throwing dice takes away the emphasis on 'flying' skill and adds a further element of luck, that is already present in the damage card draw.

    Just my 2 cents.
    I agree. I can see the merits of using dice for determining hits but not for flying skills. Further, I'd rather see FEWER dice and a simple combat results table with columns for range, different machine gun and pilot attributes and critical hits ... more like those used in the old WWI Aerial boardgames. Keep It Simple ...

  50. #100

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    I have worked on such a prototype for some time. Let's see if it gets anywhere...

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