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Thread: WOG using Xwing dice

  1. #1

    Default WOG using Xwing dice

    I do realize I'm walking on thin ice here, please do not add any unnecessary weight.

    I'm trying to something a little different. The basic game. Still use the 3 maneuver cards.

    Firing: red dice
    twin guns 4 dice
    single gun 3 dice
    change a die to a hit

    Defence: green dice
    fighters 2 dice
    observation 1 die
    multi engine aircraft 0 die

    Vet and ace pilots can do an action: focus, evade, unjam or do a restricted maneuver. Rookies can never focus or evade.
    Obs/gunners can: fire, bomb, photo or obs.

    Turn order

    Rookies: move first and fire last
    Vets: move second and fire second
    Aces: move last and fire first
    One might ask why? This will help determine if the pilot will focus or evade.

    Firing: use the B damage deck for hits and A damage for crits
    after comparing dice if you have any hits take a card from the "B" deck.
    If you take a critical take 2 cards from the "A" deck.
    If a 0 card comes up resolve any specials (gun jams, ect) and turn the card face down. All face down cards are 1 point all face up are worth their printed value.

    added Ace skills: this is where it can be a lot of fun.
    change a blank to a hit
    change a blank to an evade
    can do two actions
    can make an hit a crit

    What can you add?
    Last edited by john snelling; 09-13-2016 at 06:00.

  2. #2

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    Not such a risky idea now that WOG is copying X Wing's ideas for pilot skills and extra rules

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Not such a risky idea now that WOG is copying X Wing's ideas for pilot skills and extra rules
    That is quite correct.

    Personally I love the dice element in games, especially X-Wing, so no problem for me.
    There is one advantage of the dice system over the card one: you can leave the fight without a scratch. With cards - sooner or later one will draw fire or explosion.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  4. #4

  5. #5

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    This looks like a fun experiment -- I'm of the opposite opinion - I loath the dicing of X Wing and Attack Wing. I have enjoyed the cards and the maneuver / firing card experiments for X Wing

  6. #6

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    I like both systems, but am very happy to continue playing WW1 WofG with the original rules and cards, I LOVE that game the way it is!

    X-Wing is fun too, but I don't feel the need to play it nearly as much as Wings and Sails!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicator View Post
    This looks like a fun experiment -- I'm of the opposite opinion - I loath the dicing of X Wing and Attack Wing. I have enjoyed the cards and the maneuver / firing card experiments for X Wing
    I like straight out of the box WOG is also, I was just thinking out of the box. Perhaps a bridge between the two?

  8. #8

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    Phillip,

    After a six pack it, like women, it might look better to you.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    ...What can you add?
    Well if you must dabble in the dark side... how about some further distinction between weapon systems

    Firing: red dice
    Fixed twin guns: 4 dice
    Fixed single gun: 2 dice
    Flexible Single gun: 1 die
    Flexible Twin gun: 3 dice
    close range +1 die

    And I'd suggest the number of green defence dice could be decided by individual aircraft qualities to differentiate between them. eg if based on HP you could have 1 die for being a scout, 1 die for first 10 HP, 1 die for each 3 or 4 HP after that. That way an Eindecker may have 2 green dice, a SE5a may have four. Just an idea to play about with.

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    Dave,
    No, not the dark side I was hoping that both sides would have a chance, not just Imperial Aces!
    Interesting will give it some thought. Play test we must.

  11. #11

    Smile

    After 10 years of throwing handfulls of dice interminable in Warhammer 40K one of the things that appealed to me about Wings to paraphrase Tim was NO DICE.

    I do of course use dice occasionally to keep track of Turns, Lewis gun shots & Butchers Bills. I have also used GW's Scatter Dice for Artillery spotting scenarios.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Phillip,

    After a six pack it, like women, it might look better to you.
    lol not the way dice treat me!

  13. #13

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    Dice are definitely my nemesis - even more so than the Jams and zeros.

    Too much accounting with all those different combinations.

    That's why I put Dave's D8 Charts into an Excel calculator, so I don't have to roll dice.
    Even the CW and ETT I do in Excel - I only roll the dice so that the results are easily trackable instead of having Excel generate the numbers.

    I use 4 decks of each Damage Deck - two on each side of the table.
    If a BOOM is drawn I record the plane's damage photo for the AAR and then reshuffle all the cards for that plane back into the deck.

    KISS all the way for me.
    And I don't mean that annoying '70s band ...

  14. #14

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    [QUOTE=gully_raker;412330]one of the things that appealed to me about Wings to NO DICE[/I].

    I agree with you definitely NO DICE

  15. #15

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    Absolutely

    NO DICE!!!!!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  16. #16

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    Ahh c'mon chaps, the question was
    What can you add?
    not whether you want to play with dice or not.
    Last edited by flash; 07-07-2016 at 06:01.

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #17

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    Thanks Dave,

    Some just want to add weight to the conversation. The ice is melting though.

    I'm play testing.

    Rookie pilots actually are bad as they should be.

    Next play test will include. If a hit take a face up "B" damage for a Crit take a face up "A". Zeros are turned face down and count as 1 damage. Making a shorter, turn wise, game.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Well if you must dabble in the dark side... how about some further distinction between weapon systems

    Firing: red dice
    Fixed twin guns: 4 dice
    Fixed single gun: 2 dice
    Flexible Single gun: 1 die
    Flexible Twin gun: 3 dice
    close range +1 die

    And I'd suggest the number of green defence dice could be decided by individual aircraft qualities to differentiate between them. eg if based on HP you could have 1 die for being a scout, 1 die for first 10 HP, 1 die for each 3 or 4 HP after that. That way an Eindecker may have 2 green dice, a SE5a may have four. Just an idea to play about with.
    If one were to give it a go, I'd lean more towards Dave's numbers... I'd want to make certain that the twin-gunned scouts enjoyed the advantage of having twice the firepower of the single-gunned scouts.

    Might also add an additional die for continuous fire, and perhaps one for altitude bonus. Additionally, pilot skill could modify either or both dice... aces receive an additional, rookies lose one... that sort of thing.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    If one were to give it a go, I'd lean more towards Dave's numbers... I'd want to make certain that the twin-gunned scouts enjoyed the advantage of having twice the firepower of the single-gunned scouts.

    Might also add an additional die for continuous fire, and perhaps one for altitude bonus. Additionally, pilot skill could modify either or both dice... aces receive an additional, rookies lose one... that sort of thing.
    Continuous fire would be to add 1 to the hit number, but I thought of adding 1 die earlier and decided to backtrack for some odd reason. I like that.

    Pilot skill: rookies not being able to focus or evade and shooting last gives them a big disadvantage. But if you are willing to give it a go let me know.

    Dave might be on to something that I'm not. I debate with myself if two guns double the fire of one. On the surface it seems like a very simple answer 2 is double 1. But from my reading it might not be so taking into account different factors. for example: Does the game represent maneuver to the degree used in air combat?

    Basic question is how to best represent a Sopwith Pup or Triplane vs an Albatros D.III. Was the Pup or the Triplane at that much of a disadvantage. Or and single seat fighter with one gun vs a two seater with pilot and obs guns.

    Diceology:
    2 attack dice with focus vs 2 defence dice with focus
    0 hits 60%
    1 hit 31%
    2 hits 8%
    average expected .47 hit

    3 attack dice with focus vs 2 defence dice with focus
    0 hits 30%
    1 hit 38%
    2 hits 25%
    3 hits 6%
    average expected 1.07 hit

    you are doubling the amount of damage by adding 1 die

    just some food/numbers for thought. Back to playing.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Absolutely

    NO DICE!!!!!
    I do believe, sir, that is a negative.

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    Last edited by john snelling; 07-07-2016 at 15:15.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I do believe, sir, that is a negative.
    Darn tootin' it is!

    I believe what you're doing has great merit, it's just not for me.

    And Foghorn Leghorn, well, I've not seen any cartoons featuring him for a good long while...............too long, in fact.

    "Boy, boy, ah say BOY...................!" Great stuff
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  22. #22

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    Tim,

    UR absolutely correct it is not for everyone.

    I'm glad you took it the way I meant it.

  23. #23

    Thumbs up

    I love the Humour that folk bring to this Forum!

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Tim,

    UR absolutely correct it is not for everyone.

    I'm glad you took it the way I meant it.

    Is there another way?
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Is there another way?
    Hopefully, not here
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    ...Dave might be on to something that I'm not. ..
    Probably not John !

    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    ...I debate with myself if two guns double the fire of one. On the surface it seems like a very simple answer 2 is double 1. But from my reading it might not be so taking into account different factors. ...
    Basic question is how to best represent a Sopwith Pup or Triplane vs an Albatros D.III. Was the Pup or the Triplane at that much of a disadvantage. Or and single seat fighter with one gun vs a two seater with pilot and obs guns....
    I made a quick suggestion as much to fit in the armament options as anything else and to address the fixed guns over flexible guns issues.
    It could just as easily work as:
    Firing: red dice
    Fixed twin guns: 3 dice
    Fixed single gun: 2 dice
    Flexible Single gun: 1 die
    Flexible Twin gun: 2 dice
    close range +1 die

    That might be a better option. The key will as much be the balance with the defence dice. Playtesting is the answer but sadly I don't have any dice to help with this - it's my son who is the X-Wing pilot and he's an hours drive away.
    Last edited by flash; 07-09-2016 at 00:21.

    "He is wise who watches"

  27. #27

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    After play testing. A rewrite was in order.

    Firing: red dice
    twin guns 4 dice
    single gun 3 dice
    close range +1 die

    Defense: green dice
    - fighters 2 dice
    - non fighter single engine 1 die
    - multi engine aircraft 0 die
    - regular range +1 die

    Vet and ace pilots can do an action: focus, evade, unjam or do a restricted maneuver.
    Rookies can never focus or evade.
    Multi engine aircraft pilots do not get any actions except what is on their maneuver decks.
    Gunners can: fire or other (bomb, photo, unjam or observe)
    Note: gunners not being able to focus this makes the their firing weaker than pilots (one of my pet peeves of WOG).

    Turn order
    move order
    - multi engine aircraft
    - non-fighter single engine aircraft
    - rookie fighter
    - veteran fighter
    - ace fighter
    firing order is reversed except an ace has the option to fire first or after the rookie fighter.

    Firing: roll red dice and modify then roll green dice and modify
    after comparing dice if you have any hits take a card from the "B" deck.
    If you take a critical take from the "A" deck.
    If a 0 card comes up resolve any specials (gun jams, ect) and turn the card face down.
    All face down cards are 1 point all face up are worth their printed value.

    There are 3 levels of aces
    Level one aces with 5 to 10 victories only move last and have the fire option
    Level two aces with 11 to 20 victories adds one of the following
    - plus 1 red die
    - plus 1 green die
    - can make an hit a crit
    - can perform 2 actions
    - any other ace skills already in the game. Be reasonable!
    Level 3 aces 21 plus victories can have multiple ace skills

    Have fun!

  28. #28

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    NO DICE!!!!!
    What I use to tell inmates I will share with you "I might look old but, my hearing is still OK."

    So for silent screaming over the internet "I might wear glasses but, I can still read small print."

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    NO DICE!!!!!
    Phillip;
    If you don't want to read about the options people bring forth, then don't. But don't shout it out.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  31. #31

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    Dice Forever!
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Phillip;
    If you don't want to read about the options people bring forth, then don't. But don't shout it out.
    Karl
    Mimicking the all-too-frequently seen "no sails" meme

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Mimicking the all-too-frequently seen "no sails" meme
    There's a difference between poking fun (esp. at Tim ), and being rudely argumentative.
    John is bringing forth a homebrewed alternative to combat. I personally would not care to play WoG with dice, but I see the merits in the proposal.
    It's one thing to calmly state your preference not to dice, but bold red caps is being rude. And followed by the ??
    Sorry. This medium of communication has too many ways to be misinterpreted without making it a sure thing.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  34. #34

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is why I hate dice. Both rolls were tough to beat, and the bottom left roll was focused into all hits. The top left was a natural roll of all hits.

    I rolled all evades! It wasn't enough. The first attack took out my remaining shields, leaving me with my last two hull. The second attack turned me into expanding debris and plasma. Can any one say Boom Dice?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    NO DICE!!!!!
    "Those who close their ears to a shout, may strain to hear a whisper" ( Leonard Nimoy.)

  36. #36

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    After being near death and taking multiple doses of mind altering meds, including chemo, which still effects my brain. One thing a learned throughout this experience is the old saying "if you did not walk a mile in his shoes......" is true for me.

    What I use to take personal, I now find it to be an annoyance but, I take it with a dose of acceptance.

    I hear the shouting but, I did receive some reps for the post and my recent rewrite was for those guys.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    There's a difference between poking fun (esp. at Tim ), and being rudely argumentative.
    John is bringing forth a homebrewed alternative to combat. I personally would not care to play WoG with dice, but I see the merits in the proposal.
    It's one thing to calmly state your preference not to dice, but bold red caps is being rude. And followed by the ??
    Sorry. This medium of communication has too many ways to be misinterpreted without making it a sure thing.
    Karl
    so wait! when tim does it its poking fun but when i do it its being rude and argumentative? really? whatever dude lighten up. its just font on a page. get over it.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herkybird View Post
    "Those who close their ears to a shout, may strain to hear a whisper" ( Leonard Nimoy.)
    Who in the heck would believe a mixed human-Vulcan heritage person that was incapable of lying?

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herkybird View Post
    "Those who close their ears to a shout, may strain to hear a whisper" ( Leonard Nimoy.)
    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Who in the heck would believe a mixed human-Vulcan heritage person that was incapable of lying?
    Wait...

    Are we discussing Star Wars? Or Star Trek? I used to be confused, but now I just don't know...
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  40. #40

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    Mike, I believe you should have rolled an extra green die at range 3.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Wait...

    Are we discussing Star Wars? Or Star Trek? I used to be confused, but now I just don't know...
    Mike, you got to keep up!! We were multi-tasking like a drunken parrot.

  42. #42

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    I don't think that the use of attack/evade/defense dice add to the game in a positive way. It works for space games where you are using blasters and missiles over vast distances and the actual movement of the miniature plays a minor role. IMHO for Wings of Glory your chance to evade attack are the manoeuvre cards you select. I always know when I have played a good game of Wings of Glory by the number of damage cards I have taken compared to those I have dished out - in this case less is more. Throwing dice takes away the emphasis on 'flying' skill and adds a further element of luck, that is already present in the damage card draw.

    Just my 2 cents.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Mike, I believe you should have rolled an extra green die at range 3.
    There may have been a reason I didn't roll the extra die, but would it have made a difference on the day? Would I have rolled three evades? It was a game, and with the two to one advantage, it was only a matter of time. Which we had run out of for our time slot, anyway. This was at InCON 2016, with Shane [Skyguy001] hosting.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Mike, you got to keep up!! We were multi-tasking like a drunken parrot.
    What! Even drunken parrots can multi-task? I am so messed up.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  45. #45

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    Some games work better with dice but not WOG. Sorry that is my opinion for what it's worth.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybear View Post
    Some games work better with dice but not WOG. Sorry that is my opinion for what it's worth.
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  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Not such a risky idea now that WOG is copying X Wing's ideas for pilot skills and extra rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    That is quite correct.
    Sorry no, it's not correct at all.

    Here you have the first pilot skills for Wings of War, April 2004:

    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/194...edback-welcome

    The "bullet checker" can also be seen in Famous Aces' rulebook, the very first one, released in 2004.

    Even more skills have been released, together with the ones above, on our ace cards in Spring 2012 (still several months before X-Wing's release):

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    Game fans made a lot of them too, whidely available online. This is a pilot skill and extra rule card for Wings of War uploaded on BoardGameGeek by Ellis Hugh (user FlyingJenni) in 2004.

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    Extra rules for specific plane's equipement and variations can be found in almost every rulebook we released (Flight of the Giants, 2010, being probably the most dense example for that).

    All this pre-dates X-Wing by many years. If you really think that some form of copying has been involved, maybe you should think well about who copied who.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 07-25-2016 at 01:21.

  48. #48

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    We know where the X-Wing designers got their inspiration for that game Angiolillo, even if they will never admit the fact.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    We know where the X-Wing designers got their inspiration for that game Angiolillo, even if they will never admit the fact.
    That is correct as well. However I meant just adding new mod cards (like gunpods to Bf 109K) to new planes is something like X/W idea of customizing new models which is a very good one and we are happy with that. WoG really needs planes' and pilots' customizations to enhance gaming experience. And to be frankly ace rules need some tweaking or houseruling IMHO, for counting/discarding ace counters is fiddly and is hardly seen in games.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    That is correct as well. However I meant just adding new mod cards (like gunpods to Bf 109K) to new planes is something like X/W idea of customizing new models which is a very good one and we are happy with that. WoG really needs planes' and pilots' customizations to enhance gaming experience. And to be frankly ace rules need some tweaking or houseruling IMHO, for counting/discarding ace counters is fiddly and is hardly seen in games.
    Like any rules in any game Andrzej I think because the ace skills are not used all that often in 'standard' games players think they are more complex than they actually are. The Briswingsofwar campaign I ran back in 2010-11 had quite a few aces and it did not take long to get used to the mechanic when we started flying them regularly.

    I am also starting to become wary of too many house rules in the game. I am not talking about unofficial aircraft but changing basic mechanics. I know every player has different preferences about the system, but too much tinkering changes the flavour and the flow of the game. It can also make it inaccessible to new players who start to wonder, if these guys need so many house rules what's wrong with the original ruleset?

    If I am running a public game my preference is to always go RAW. Added levels of complexity do not necessarily improve what is essentially a pretty simple and elegant system.

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