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Thread: WGS Battle of Britain Update

  1. #501

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    Hmmmmm.
    the more I look at these, the more I swing to Mike's point of view.
    On the other hand, Nexus dropped the product, presumably on cost/profit ratios.
    If we want pre-prepared minis, we are kind of stuck with this balance between affordable finish and perfection.
    Better pre-production trials, and the ability to measure stuff more accurately should be the lesson the factory is looking at but I'm not hopeful.
    We are somewhat between a rock and a hard place; If we try to force them to improve quality by refusing to buy substandard tatt, we risk Ares dropping the product as Nexus did.

    Lest we forget

  2. #502

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    - they just Immel all the time!)
    This got me thinking...

    109E3 167 points

    MK.I 144 points
    Acrobatic Pilot 10 points
    Luck Pilot 13 points
    Total 167 points

    Now we have a balanced match-up where the Hurricane includes a superior turn ability and effectively a one time evasion ability. This is just a proposal, I have not tried it but now I have something to do this weekend!

  3. #503

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokhuah View Post
    This got me thinking...

    109E3 167 points

    MK.I 144 points
    Acrobatic Pilot 10 points
    Luck Pilot 13 points
    Total 167 points

    Now we have a balanced match-up where the Hurricane includes a superior turn ability and effectively a one time evasion ability. This is just a proposal, I have not tried it but now I have something to do this weekend!
    Knock yourself out, but bear in mind:

    109E3 167 points (arbitrary - made up by someone)

    Hurricane Mk.I 144 points (also arbitrary - might correlate to the 167 above, but might not)
    Acrobatic pilot 10 points (arbitrary)
    Lucky pilot 13 points (really? why not the same as Acrobatic? why not double? who knows?)
    Total 167 (possibly - but then, since all the components are made-up, can anyone be sure?)

    It sounds to me as though a Hurricane Mk.I with two Ace skills, and an unproven extra-tight turn ability, will definitely NOT be an equal match for a Bf109E3, and if so, then there is something wrong with some of the points allocated (as I believe there is in almost every other points game I have ever played)
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  4. #504

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Knock yourself out, but bear in mind:

    109E3 167 points (arbitrary - made up by someone)
    It is not arbitrary because the Wings of Glory game designer Andrea Angiolino created the point system.

    It sounds to me as though a Hurricane Mk.I with two Ace skills, and an unproven extra-tight turn ability, will definitely NOT be an equal match for a Bf109E
    The point system is currently being tested and adjusted. If you read my post I am proposing the balancing idea as worthy of a test, nothing more, nothing less. If you are able to objectively try it out, and find there is still imbalance then we can move from conjecture to an evidence based discussion. No doubt creating a valid point system is a a lot of work and not for everyone. However, I am finding a positive reaction to using points from WGS outsiders because many gamers want/need an empiracle system to validate balance.

    Sorry if I hijacked the thread. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming...

  5. #505

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    As promised, some side-by-side photos of the new Hurricane vs the old.

    To my eye, these look like the exact same underlying miniature, though they are finished to different standards. There are things that are bad about the new ones - the upper edges of the wing and vertical stabilizer, as well as the bombs (which are cut off of my planes) - but there are bad things about the old one, too (the much larger gap between wing and fuselage at the fillet).

    Overall, my son and I agree that the color scheme of the new plane, being lighter, and the decals, being a grey as opposed to white, give the plane a nicer presence on the table. I also quite prefer my own decal application for the squadron markings versus the ones from the factory, as I feel I was able to get them "just how I wanted them" whereas with the ones from the factory, you get what you get - and even back in Nexus days, they were not necessarily perfect.

    In any event, pictures are worth a thousand words, so I'll stop typing now.

    Attachment 221127

    Attachment 221128

    Attachment 221129

    Attachment 221130

    Attachment 221131
    Thank you for sharing. Looks good.


    Thomas

  6. #506

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    A thought just occurred to me regarding the Hurricane's maneuverability (or lack thereof):

    A Modest Proposal
    Take the new 60* turn cards from the BoB Spitfire's A deck and put them in the Hurricane's C deck.

    This would bring the Spitfires back in line with the WoW precedent, matching them more closely (and historically) with the Bf.109E, and more importantly give the Hurris a (IMHO) much-needed maneuverability buff... the "teeth" they need to be relevant, as I see it.

    Thoughts?

  7. #507

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    Does using a factory in China make it difficult for Ares to exercise quality control?

  8. #508

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    A thought just occurred to me regarding the Hurricane's maneuverability (or lack thereof):

    A Modest Proposal
    Take the new 60* turn cards from the BoB Spitfire's A deck and put them in the Hurricane's C deck.

    This would bring the Spitfires back in line with the WoW precedent, matching them more closely (and historically) with the Bf.109E, and more importantly give the Hurris a (IMHO) much-needed maneuverability buff... the "teeth" they need to be relevant, as I see it.

    Thoughts?
    I like that simple but effective solution Steve.

  9. #509

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Does using a factory in China make it difficult for Ares to exercise quality control?
    Depends on how they do excercise quality control.

    Would be fairly difficult without a "On Site" person & I guess cost would rule that out.

  10. #510

    orlo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Does using a factory in China make it difficult for Ares to exercise quality control?
    I would be much happier if they have some control of their products.
    I have a small squadron of ww2 aircrafts and when I get this "drunken" propeller - well - I'm more than sad.

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  11. #511

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    Quote Originally Posted by orlo View Post
    I would be much happier if they have some control of their products.
    I have a small squadron of ww2 aircrafts and when I get this "drunken" propeller - well - I'm more than sad.

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    Hello Carl, that is a quick fix. Put a small dob of super glue on the end of a tooth-pick and apply it to the area of the break then gently push the propeller blade back into place.

    I do it for my RE.8 props about every six months

  12. #512

    orlo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Hello Carl, that is a quick fix. Put a small dob of super glue on the end of a tooth-pick and apply it to the area of the break then gently push the propeller blade back into place.
    Thanks Carl.
    I'll do that!
    First I'll have to brake that blade because it's hard-fixed.

  13. #513

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Does using a factory in China make it difficult for Ares to exercise quality control?
    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    Depends on how they do excercise quality control.

    Would be fairly difficult without a "On Site" person & I guess cost would rule that out.
    Ares have samples shipped to them at different points in the production process. It's not perfect, but it works well enough for a $10~$16 game piece.

  14. #514

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    My disappointment has been with the "fogged" (white/yellow opaque) canopies. If their folks can't get those glued w/o making a mess of them, I'd rather just get them separate and glue them on myself. The only choice one has with those is to paint them over and gloss them, which is not as esthetic as having them clear imho. This is an issue that I don't recall with any previous release, and really should be rectified. It shouldn't add anything to the cost to just glue them properly.

  15. #515

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by skystalker View Post
    My disappointment has been with the "fogged" (white/yellow opaque) canopies. If their folks can't get those glued w/o making a mess of them, I'd rather just get them separate and glue them on myself. The only choice one has with those is to paint them over and gloss them, which is not as esthetic as having them clear imho. This is an issue that I don't recall with any previous release, and really should be rectified. It shouldn't add anything to the cost to just glue them properly.
    I have not had this problem Bob with any of my new WW2 BoB models & have not heard of anyone else either.
    Can you please post photos & maybe Andrea can take a look at them.

  16. #516

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Hello Carl, that is a quick fix. Put a small dob of super glue on the end of a tooth-pick and apply it to the area of the break then gently push the propeller blade back into place.

    I do it for my RE.8 props about every six months



    i use the same technique. ironically it was also my re8 that gave me the issue the 1st time. now i just work an exacto knife around the blade between it and the mount and pop it off, rotate it 45 degrees and glue it back on so the uppermore prop blade doesnt stick up past the top wing.

  17. #517

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    i use the same technique. ironically it was also my re8 that gave me the issue the 1st time. now i just work an exacto knife around the blade between it and the mount and pop it off, rotate it 45 degrees and glue it back on so the uppermore prop blade doesnt stick up past the top wing.
    Yes, if only the prop was placed 'X' rather than '+' we would never have had this problem.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  18. #518

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    I have been driving my FLGS owner crazy asking about my Battle of Britain Starter Set Pre-order. She finally got a shipment in that she thought would have contained the Starter Set, a month after the release date. Nope.

    However, I have finally laid eyes on the Squadron Pack planes. I didn't get to see them out of the package, but the Bf-109 doesn't look bad, nor does the Stuka. The Spitfire was not pleasing, with its sky leading edges, but the Crappycanes were as atrocious as expected. The shop owner was holding them for me, giving me first dibs on the planes before putting them on display. I told her about my email to Ares and their reply, and that I wouldn't be doing any more demos of WGS for the foreseeable future, due to the poor quality of the minis.

    She asked me not to voice my opinion in the store, as she was looking at yet another handful of peg queens. I fully agreed, and am shaking my head at the fact she even ordered them. I thought I had filled her in on my dissatisfaction with the latest release, but she must have gapped it in all the other concerns in running a gaming and coffee shop, and the recent convention.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  19. #519

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    I did a bit of painting on mine to get rid of the stark edges. Looks OK I think but seeing them in the photos with the flash in effect highlights a few areas where I need to add a second coat. I included an unpainted one as reference.

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  20. #520

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    Night and Day!


    I only hope I can do as well with mine.
    Picked up paints on Saturday.

    Might get to it before Christmas ..

  21. #521

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    A vast improvement Mick, they look so much better already.

    "He is wise who watches"

  22. #522

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    A vast improvement Mick, they look so much better already.
    Don't they just?

    Well done, that man!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  23. #523

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    Well done Mick, a great improvement
    Please tell me what make of paint (I hope Vallejo ....) and the colours you used, will you, so I can do mine as well.
    Thanks in advance,
    cheers
    Guus
    Last edited by Aardvark1430; 04-26-2017 at 07:43.
    "zet 'm op ... witte muizen !" (strijdkreet van 1e JaVa, Luchtvaart Afdeling, Nederland 1940)
    "let's go get them ... white mice !" (battlecry of the 1st Fighter Group, Army Air Force, Netherlands 1940)

  24. #524

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    Great touch up Mick. Now they look like they mean business.

  25. #525

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aardvark1430 View Post
    Well done Mick, a great improvement
    Please tell me what make of paint (I hope Vallejo ....) and the colours you used, will you, so I can do mine as well.
    Thanks in advance,
    cheers
    Guus
    For the brown, I used Vallejo's "Green Brown" 70.0879 but I found it to be a little too light and had to darken it a bit. It does darken a bit once it dries so it's pretty close but not exact.

    For the green, I used Citadel's "Castellan Green" and it matched almost perfectly once dried.

  26. #526

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
    For the brown, I used Vallejo's "Green Brown" 70.0879 but I found it to be a little too light and had to darken it a bit. It does darken a bit once it dries so it's pretty close but not exact.

    For the green, I used Citadel's "Castellan Green" and it matched almost perfectly once dried.
    Good to know; also for painting AIM or SW planes.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  27. #527

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    We shouldn't have to be doing this ourselves.

  28. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canestri10 View Post
    We shouldn't have to be doing this ourselves.
    I agree.

    I really do.

    But re-hashing the same old ground, the same old complaint, isn't going to make the minis paint themselves!

    I worry that too much repetitive negativity might put Ares off altogether.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  29. #529

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    I agree.

    I really do.

    But re-hashing the same old ground, the same old complaint, isn't going to make the minis paint themselves!

    I worry that too much repetitive negativity might put Ares off altogether.
    I totally agree Tim.
    The last thing we want is to "*iss" off Ares.
    Many players of the Game would not be concerned. They just want the Models & play the Game.

  30. #530

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
    For the brown, I used Vallejo's "Green Brown" 70.0879 but I found it to be a little too light and had to darken it a bit. It does darken a bit once it dries so it's pretty close but not exact.

    For the green, I used Citadel's "Castellan Green" and it matched almost perfectly once dried.
    Thanks Mick
    cheers,
    Guus
    "zet 'm op ... witte muizen !" (strijdkreet van 1e JaVa, Luchtvaart Afdeling, Nederland 1940)
    "let's go get them ... white mice !" (battlecry of the 1st Fighter Group, Army Air Force, Netherlands 1940)

  31. #531

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    Nice job done there Mick, and thanks for the tip about suitable paints too.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  32. #532

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canestri10 View Post
    We shouldn't have to be doing this ourselves.
    Most of us agree with this, but we have to deal with the models we have.
    I have faith that Ares will address these QC issues, for future releases. Certainly, they have been informed.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  33. #533

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    I agree.

    I really do.

    But re-hashing the same old ground, the same old complaint, isn't going to make the minis paint themselves!

    I worry that too much repetitive negativity might put Ares off altogether.
    I agree 110%. These are gaming toys, not study models or museum pieces. I'm happy ARES is still producing planes for us and hope they keep doing so for a long time.

  34. #534

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I agree 110%. These are gaming toys, not study models or museum pieces. I'm happy ARES is still producing planes for us and hope they keep doing so for a long time.
    Yes but it's just hard to justify it when you see the quality of the Nexus planes knowing how good they can be if there was some investment on Ares' part in the QC department. But yeah it's like beating a dead horse. It's been at least 4 years now since the unfinished edges issue has been bought to their attention and not a thing has been done about it. I'm happy with what I get but to see no effort in change on their part has to be spoken of.

  35. #535

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    Oh, don't get me wrong. I would really love it if ARES could put in a bit more effort to get it right. As you say, they haven't seemed to hear us on the QC issues. Would that effort mean delaying product or costing more? That would be up to them.
    For the price, I think what we get is pretty darn good overall.

  36. #536

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    I have not had this problem Bob with any of my new WW2 BoB models & have not heard of anyone else either.
    Can you please post photos & maybe Andrea can take a look at them.
    Sorry to be slow in responding. We were traveling with limited connectivity. I had sent pictures to Leonardo Rina, who handles replacements, but he indicated that Ares did not consider this a "production issue". I'm not sure what they would consider it, but there are a couple of Hurricanes where the pilots will have great difficulty seeing their targets; the frustration is that this is such a simple thing to get right if the proper fixative is used.

  37. #537

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    Quote Originally Posted by skystalker View Post
    Sorry to be slow in responding. We were traveling with limited connectivity. I had sent pictures to Leonardo Rina, who handles replacements, but he indicated that Ares did not consider this a "production issue". I'm not sure what they would consider it, but there are a couple of Hurricanes where the pilots will have great difficulty seeing their targets; the frustration is that this is such a simple thing to get right if the proper fixative is used.
    Bob,
    This is similar to the answer I got from Ares on the look of the planes in their Squadron Packs. It isn't something they consider a problem, just something to be accepted as the new way of Ares putting out planes.

    At my latest con (InCON 2017), I had people looking for some WGS games, as I usually run one or two. When I said I wasn't running any more WGS, and wouldn't be for the foreseeable future, I got a puzzled, then disappointed look. The individual wouldn't join in the WGF games, and left unhappy. No where near as unhappy as I am.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  38. #538

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    What I don't understand is if the upper surfaces are transfers/decals rather than paint surely it can't be hard/more expensive to get them the correct size to cover the entire surface or do decal manufacturers charge by the square mm ?

  39. #539

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    This is likely one of those things that, once the machinery is in motion, it's not worth scrapping a production run over, because you'd need to re-print all the transfers and (possibly) change physical tooling

    I can happily live with the hurris as they are - touching up is no great effort and for actual gameplay use the issue's trival (the unpainted canopy framing bothers me more, to be honest). One of the guys I was playing with at my club on wednesday night was besotted with the Hurricane I had out. He's an enthusiastic wargamer, plays lots of different things including Bolt Action and X-wing, and picked up the BoB starter (plus 2 mats and several extra planes) - last week after a previous intro game I'd run at the club earlier in the month.

    I do think Ares are doing a good job at making models at a price point competitive with X-wing's minis for what must be much smaller production runs. Mass production is always a compromise. To be honest, I would rather Ares spent more effort in promoting the WW2 game, recruiting stockists (the event a couple of weekends ago was a start), making Point of Sale material, building up a player base, and so on. WGS seems to still bubble just below that critical mass where it's a no-brainer for a stockist to carry - we need to get the game to that point.

  40. #540

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFT View Post
    This is likely one of those things that, once the machinery is in motion, it's not worth scrapping a production run over, because you'd need to re-print all the transfers and (possibly) change physical tooling

    I can happily live with the hurris as they are - touching up is no great effort and for actual gameplay use the issue's trival (the unpainted canopy framing bothers me more, to be honest). One of the guys I was playing with at my club on wednesday night was besotted with the Hurricane I had out. He's an enthusiastic wargamer, plays lots of different things including Bolt Action and X-wing, and picked up the BoB starter (plus 2 mats and several extra planes) - last week after a previous intro game I'd run at the club earlier in the month.

    I do think Ares are doing a good job at making models at a price point competitive with X-wing's minis for what must be much smaller production runs. Mass production is always a compromise. To be honest, I would rather Ares spent more effort in promoting the WW2 game, recruiting stockists (the event a couple of weekends ago was a start), making Point of Sale material, building up a player base, and so on. WGS seems to still bubble just below that critical mass where it's a no-brainer for a stockist to carry - we need to get the game to that point.

    Very well said Richard.

  41. #541

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    I totally agree with you Richard.
    That is why we run the game at so many shows each year, and why several of us have sunk so much time effort and money into producing all the banners. What the last piece of the jigsaw is has always been the problem. Either no models on sale, or no starter sets in production.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  42. #542

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFT View Post
    This is likely one of those things that, once the machinery is in motion, it's not worth scrapping a production run over, because you'd need to re-print all the transfers and (possibly) change physical tooling

    I can happily live with the hurris as they are - touching up is no great effort and for actual gameplay use the issue's trival (the unpainted canopy framing bothers me more, to be honest). One of the guys I was playing with at my club on wednesday night was besotted with the Hurricane I had out. He's an enthusiastic wargamer, plays lots of different things including Bolt Action and X-wing, and picked up the BoB starter (plus 2 mats and several extra planes) - last week after a previous intro game I'd run at the club earlier in the month.

    I do think Ares are doing a good job at making models at a price point competitive with X-wing's minis for what must be much smaller production runs. Mass production is always a compromise. To be honest, I would rather Ares spent more effort in promoting the WW2 game, recruiting stockists (the event a couple of weekends ago was a start), making Point of Sale material, building up a player base, and so on. WGS seems to still bubble just below that critical mass where it's a no-brainer for a stockist to carry - we need to get the game to that point.
    An excellent post (rep gun now cooling off). And you highlight the main point, which is that given the sales numbers we should be glad the company is still supporting and developing the game. And that we - and Ares - should do everything possible to promote it. While it's never going to compete with X-Wing (sad but true) there must be a number of X-Wing players who would be interested in WWI & WW2 fighter combat essentially using very similar game mechanics (enough said on this, I know it's a delicate subject). I should know as this is how I got into WGF. With the current low sales of units perfection is unrealistic, especially in the context of the pricing points & competition. Promoting and supporting the game to get new players to justify multiple production runs must be the priority. Boycotting the game in order to get perfect models will only kill the game, which strikes me as a severe case of cutting off your nose to spite your own face.

    Tom

  43. #543

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    I ran a game using the new Battle of Britain stuff at a local game store last night. Put invites out a few weeks before the event and ended up having six of nine managing to make it and one drop in. Nobody aside from me had played Wings of Glory before so we just went with the basics. Speed changes but no accel/decel rules, no alt changes, etc.

    We went with 2 Spits and 2 Hurricanes trying to stop an He-111 and its three Bf-109 escorts from bombing a small factory building (2 map setup, coast and industrial complex). The 109s used the limited ammo rule. It was chaotic. Everything died except the 111 but it was on fire and missed its drop by quite a distance (used the 3 card length, high alt bombing drop rules). Everyone seemed to enjoy themselves and said they'd like to play again. Two were eagerly looking up minis and rules sets online to order their own but were bummed to find that pickings were slim for a lot of things. They also noticed the reduction in the quality of minis when checking out my collection and comparing the original NEXUS stuff to the 109K-4s and Dauntlesses from the last wave.

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  44. #544

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    Well done, Mick!

  45. #545

    Setarius's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies
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    Mick,
    I'm glad you were able to get in a game and the guys liked it enough to look for the minis. Just keep reminding them they are tools for the game and not museum pieces.
    I do understand the disappointment in the quality of the Hurricanes compared to prior planes, I was disappointed, even after reading all the critiques on here from the purists, by the decals on the tail sections of my 'Canes. I think my 3 year old could have done as good. But, I am still going to fly mine and have decided to make 1 change to one of the Hurricanes. Will post a picture after the change.
    Good Luck and just keep flying.

  46. #546

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    Those new Spitfires are real beauties.

    Assembled today one I bought in Prague as Sqdn. Leader A.T.Smith with the new decals.

    A few rough stripes over the yellow edges an add the nice decals and it looks awesome on the gaming mats.

    One ace card and two plane cards included I really have to say: "Well done Ares Games."
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  47. #547

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    Ares page is showing a scheduled reprint of the Battle of Britain starter for March '18. Hmmm... Fascinating. I wish they would print British coastline or London mats too.

  48. #548

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    London mats would be great. I'm using plexi over the paper ones but would jump on official London mats.

  49. #549

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    ... would jump on official London mats.
    I would definitely go for those.
    They have given us the others they originally supplied in paper - time for the London ones.

  50. #550

    Default

    Very true, the London ones would be a great boost for the bombers.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

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