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Thread: New Bf 109K-4 - Unboxing

  1. #51

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    In this, we are not in dispute. But still don't know how this thread helps us to better minis

  2. #52

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    Oh, I'd bet it'll help more than you think. Like I said... next time I send Rob a note on Sails stuff*, I'll send him the link and recommend he give this a read.
    *A question came up on an upcoming Sails model and a sculpt vs stats issue, and I gave him a "This wasn't the same modeler who made such an epic Bloody Balls-Up of the Tripe, was it?"
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  3. #53

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    If the next WGS will be with perfect edges, no mistakes (codeletters on Canadian Spit) and with right shapes, the first round on Prague Con is on me.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    If the next WGS will be with perfect edges, no mistakes (codeletters on Canadian Spit) and with right shapes, the first round on Prague Con is on me.
    I hope to live that long Daniel! 2024?
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I'm going to refer this thread to Rob, the real decisionmaker on Wings/Sails--he needs to hear about Triplane PR Nightmare 2.0.

    Also, it might be worthwhile to post your reviews of the 109K over on BGG too.

    Most of WGF/WGS/Sails I'd pay full price for brick-and-mortar sans complaint, but these... I'm just not willing to pay more than the $10 CSI or MM are asking for what I'll get.
    Yes, word definitely needs to make its way up the chain at this point.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post

    Aha! Here we have them. Gun pods! Hey, no kidding ARES. These are rather rocket pods. Bad shape. Moreover - completely not visible from above.


    What you see on the third Bf 109 are rocket-launchers "21-cm-BR-Gerät" (21 cm Bordrakete-Gerät).
    The ammunition was called "21-cm-Wurfgranate" (a 21 cm caliber rocket) that was fired out of the laucher and had a 9,5 kg explosive charge.
    Here are some pictures I found on http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is the link of the entire article 21-cm-BR (unfortunately only in German).
    There is an english site to it but they use the german text.

  7. #57

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    You are probably right Sascha, but there are no rules for rockets attached...
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    You are probably right Sascha, but there are no rules for rockets attached...
    Well I guess someone at Ares got it wrong then
    Maybe someone in the production cycle had a little knowledge and tried to fix the problem by pulling them off
    No, just kidding

    I can totally understand your displeasure on the way the BF 109 K-4 came out.
    But unfortunately I also know how difficult it is to get a good product when producing in countries like China.
    We used to produce coins there but after the last ones were of a real bad quality we stopped producing there.
    It is allways the same story when trying to find the ideal balance between cost and quality.

  9. #59

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    Ignorance is bliss for me... I love them...

    However, when I opened one of the Dauntless, I had to sit down for a moment...

    Ares hit that one out of the park!!! The underside of the Dauntless more than compensates for any 109 shortcomings IMO)...

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by THECCRICH View Post
    Ignorance is bliss for me... I love them...

    However, when I opened one of the Dauntless, I had to sit down for a moment...

    Ares hit that one out of the park!!! The underside of the Dauntless more than compensates for any 109 shortcomings IMO)...
    Glad to hear that. I'm really locking forward to those new models. I hope they arrive soon.

  11. #61

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    Glad to hear that. I'm really locking forward to those new models. I hope they arrive soon.
    Don't tell anyone, but I am going to have to get more of the Yokosuka D4Y1 Suisei (Kokutai 601) also...

  12. #62

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    I now have all 12 new releases in hand and feel like I can now add an educated opinion into the discussion, now that I have been able to look the whole new series over from top to bottom. Overall, I am pleased, but have a few gripes. The P-47s and SBDS are FABULOUS. The Judys are well done and the 109Ks have some issues.

    Points of concern:
    The props just seem overly large. Perhaps this was done with the idea of making them stronger....personally I hate it. It looks the worst on the 109, especially compared with the earlier 109 models. The P-47 had a monster prop, so they look the best of the four in that regard. The Dauntless and Judy seem to be just slightly off and too thick/big.

    Missing paint steps really keep this series from being on par with the prior releases. The unpainted wing edges on some of these (dauntless and Judy especially), just really make them feel cheap. This series just lacks the details WOW factor of prior releases. Part of it is due to the more subtle camo schemes choices, which honestly is completely fine in my opinion, thus was WWII. But it also just feels like the detail lost on the props, wing edges, and other small details really keeps this series from being as amazing as they could have been. I don't know what additional costs those one, two, and sometimes three missing paint steps would have cost at the production and subsequent retail level, but I for one would be willing to pay a little bit more for the extra details. A lot of these smaller details I can fix myself with some time and paint, but would prefer not to.

    If these small details were sacrificed in order to give us the extra pack-in cards (ace abilities), I don't know what to say. I have yet to take these birds for a spin, so I don't know if they are worth less detailed miniatures or not at this point or if these new cards had any bearing on paint steps/cost or not.

    The positives for the series includes the new packaging. I love the historical context on the back and having the models sealed in plastic. I was never a fan of the cardboard hangers and ended up cutting them all off for storage purposes. Consequently, I am happy to see them go. I like that the boxes now look like the old Nexus packages.

    The P-47s are absolutely stunning. Other than more detailed props, I don't know what else to ask for on these.
    The Dauntlesses are also fantastic. I wish the wing edges were painted differently on these, but man, I cannot express how excited I am to finally have an official Ares model. Although, I personally would liked to have had a Dauntless in the Midway paint schemes, especially in place of the free French Banshee, I am so pleased to finally have an Allied dive bomber.
    The Judys are my least favorite choice for this series, but the paint and decal work is phenomenal (wing edges aside)

    Sadly, the 109s are a mess and a true tragedy. I am hoping the same mistakes can be averted with the BoB 109 reprints.

    *a quick note to the powers that be, don't forget that the highly detailed miniatures that were put out in the beginning are what really helped grow this game from a simple card based game. Please, keep these planes highly detailed. This series lacked some of those small details that could have made a good release and amazingly great release. Just my 2 cents anyway!
    Lastly, I cannot wait to fly these bad boys!
    Last edited by P-51D; 06-23-2016 at 20:29.

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51D View Post
    *a quick note to the powers that be, don't forget that the highly detailed miniatures that were put out in the beginning are what really helped grow this game from a simple card based game. Please, keep these planes highly detailed. This series lacked some of those small details that could have made a good release and amazingly great release.
    EXACTLY what he said!

  14. #64

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    By the way. I'm not sure if Erich Hartmann ever flew a Bf 109 K-4.
    His last known aircraft (at least he flew it on his 350th win on April 17th 1945) was a Bf 109 G-10 from Erla Leipzig.

    Here is the paint scheme of Major Erich Hartmann's Bf 109 G-10 with his Gruppenkommandeur's Doppel-winkel according to photos and the data available .
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The yellow band on the front over the tulip and the yellow rudder on the minis seem to be fiction as well.

    There is an interesting blog falkeeins.blogspot.de on this

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashdash View Post
    By the way. I'm not sure if Erich Hartmann ever flew a Bf 109 K-4.
    His last known aircraft (at least he flew it on his 350th win on April 17th 1945) was a Bf 109 G-10 from Erla Leipzig.

    Here is the paint scheme of Major Erich Hartmann's Bf 109 G-10 with his Gruppenkommandeur's Doppel-winkel according to photos and the data available .
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The yellow band on the front over the tulip and the yellow rudder on the minis seem to be fiction as well.

    There is an interesting blog falkeeins.blogspot.de on this
    That is a very interesting issue.
    Unfortunately Trevor and Constable, the authors of Holt Hartmann vom Himmel! do not specify the 109 types that Bubi flew.
    He scored his last kill on May 8th over a soviet fighter, but no clue about what type he was using that time.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  16. #66

    Rabbit 3's Avatar Squadron Leader Scotland.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Is there an opportunity here for Aerodrome Accessories to produce cannon pods, rocket pods, bombs and drop tanks?
    Shapeways anybody?

  17. #67

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    Gentlemen, your complaints here are read, and duly noted.
    I will have to re-check the (many steps of) our pre-production and production flow to find out what went wrong with the details on the BF.109-K.
    Mistakes do happen.
    We're a very small company doing very complex products, for a very passionate and experienced audience like you are in mind.
    As someone kindly noted, 3 out of 4 models in this release were from good to superb. From a gameplay point of view, all of them improve upon our previous format. One of the models is insufficient or barely sufficient.
    This is not something I can be proud of, but I am sure most of you will agree this means we don't care about this line, or that we don't listen to complaints.
    Please count the number of models we released in WW1, WW2 and Sails of Glory, and count how many of them you have to be disappointed with.
    That said, I can assure you I will definitely do my best to make sure that the kind of error in our process that affected the quality of this model won't happen again. I cannot promise we won't ever, ever do a mistake again
    I also very much appreciate the tone of this discussion. Even when complaining, you show a great amount of love and respect for our products and our company, and I will do every effort to return your support appropriately.
    Last edited by robdimeglio; 06-24-2016 at 06:35.

  18. #68

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    Well said Roberto.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  19. #69

  20. #70

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    Thank you Roberto. It is very good to know you hear our critiques and take them to heart. We love this game passionately and want it to be the best that it can be.

  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Thank you Roberto. It is very good to know you hear our critiques and take them to heart. We love this game passionately and want it to be the best that it can be.
    I subscribe to this point as well. Critiques mean we show passion (like me) and care. As I wrote before I highly appreciate ARES customer care I had experienced before and know they take our requests seriously. Errors happen, that's obvious.
    Thanks for your response Roberto.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  22. #72

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    Ares Games will curse the day they pulished this WGS miniature.

    Andrzej, you're a Bf.109 specialist and I like your well-grounded arguments on the new Bf.109K minature.

    ...but it seems that you have 3 of them now.

    I only ordered 2.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Ares Games will curse the day they pulished this WGS miniature.

    Andrzej, you're a Bf.109 specialist and I like your well-grounded arguments on the new Bf.109K minature.

    ...but it seems that you have 3 of them now.

    I only ordered 2.
    You hit the point, Sven and thanks. You know why I am a "specialist" so to say?
    When I was a kid making 1:72 models we had a very limited access to western planes' models, especially axis ones. Thus I treasured every source about Me which always fascinated me as a kind of "forbidden fruit".
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  24. #74

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    CCing on the personal email I just sent RdM:

    Rob, just wanted to point something out to place one of my comments in the Aerodrome's Bf109K-4 discussion in context. When I say "wouldn't pay full price," that's really an ambivalent response--I'm one of those "never pay full MSRP for ANYTHING" sorts, so when I say something's "Worth MSRP" that's high praise, as most of the history of Wings has been. Real condemnation from me is more like "Not at ANY price"--and to be frank, other than having hardcore 109 junkies around my personal bet is it wouldn't have stood out so much if it didn't have a wave of generally superlative offerings around it. Speaking of... if you guys include Dauntlesses in the Midway pack, I was told to nag you guys about including McCluskey and Best, two of the most significant and must-have pilots. (I'd add Cook Cleland and Swede Vejtasa for a "Big Four", simply because those two made ace using their SBD's as improvised fighters once the bombs were away.)

    Every so often, something sneaks past for all of us, and I think this was just a matter of it happening at the most noticeable time.

    [proprietary Sails discussion under NDA snipped]

    Thank you for offering the internal perspective to the community, I think sometimes it helps for everybody on all sides to just lay all the cards on the table and remember that reality is somewhere in between all of those different viewpoints--a bit like having David and I both give input from our opposed philosophies on Sails and then us trying to find just the right balance point between my overconservative "accurate model first" bias and his "get the stats right and a representational model will do" outlook.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  25. #75

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    thank you Roberto for your timely response. it goes a long way to making us feel "listened to" especially compared to some other games companies.

  26. #76

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    Thankyou for your response Roberto, yes the Bf109K is definitely the main point of concern here but can I speak freely and bring up the unpainted wing edges and tail edges, will they ever go away?

  27. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybear View Post
    I don't play WW2 much. I was looking forward to 109K when I first read about it . Seeing the mini now I don't think I will ever own one
    Likewise - was a bit excited about the new 109 - bit of a disappointment - will stick to WW1 - lets hope the Strutters and Phonix are a big improvement

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  28. #78

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    Thanks Roberto, for taking the time to respond to our concerns and praises. This game means so much to so many of us, whose fathers and grandfathers flew and died in these machines regardless of side in the war. More than that we have been provided with years of fun and great models. So our expectations are high. In addition, releases on the WGS side have been sparse and far between, so when you wait so long for new product and it isn't what you expected, it can be quite frustrating. Thank you for your good nature and understanding to our concerns. THANK YOU FOR CARING and taking the time to respond to us.We all make mistakes, but it's how we respond to those mistakes that matter most when it comes to customer satisfaction and retention. Although, no one wants to be gouged, I think we would understand a price increase in order to maintain the same quality. In no way am I advocating for price increases,but I know I would rather pay just a bit more to get the level of quality I am accustomed to. Thank you for continuing to support this game and if you keep making a quality reasonably priced product, I will keep buying it!
    Last edited by P-51D; 06-25-2016 at 05:48.

  29. #79

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    I received my shipment yesterday, but only got a chance to double-check my shipment and get the items into my Excel spreadsheet.
    I have not opened any of the individual aircraft yet, but I do agree with the general direction of this thread regarding the props and the Me109 issues.

    I do like the new boxes that have some general info about the specific aircraft on the back of the box.

    22 new additions to my collection.
    170 WWII aircraft now, and have yet to try WGS ...

    Looking forward to the WGF shipment later this summer.

  30. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I received my shipment yesterday, but only got a chance to double-check my shipment and get the items into my Excel spreadsheet.
    I have not opened any of the individual aircraft yet, but I do agree with the general direction of this thread regarding the props and the Me109 issues.

    I do like the new boxes that have some general info about the specific aircraft on the back of the box.

    22 new additions to my collection.
    170 WWII aircraft now, and have yet to try WGS ...

    Looking forward to the WGF shipment later this summer.
    Any Battle of Britain planes, Pete? A Skype game could be arranged to fix that WGS issue ...
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  31. #81

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    That said, I can assure you I will definitely do my best to make sure that the kind of error in our process that affected the quality of this model won't happen again. I cannot promise we won't ever, ever do a mistake again
    I also very much appreciate the tone of this discussion. Even when complaining, you show a great amount of love and respect for our products and our company, and I will do every effort to return your support appropriately.
    I love you guys and your company; thank you for years of kick but fun...

    Hold on Ares... It is faint, but I'm getting a message from the future...

    It's terribly broken, but I will try to clean it up a little...

    GR.....MMN... fsfsfsfsfdssadfs (static) Aaa ...s sfsfdf ad Vin.... fssssssfsfsfssff Gr...f ffsffffsssssffs...

    Hold on, let me turn up the gain a little... Ok, it's coming in a little clearer now...

    Gro Man Avin Ger...

    I'm not sure what it means, but I was able to confirm it is an authentic message from the future...

    Any body know what it means..?

    (P.s. just having fun Ares just like you guys are experts at... Thank you again... )

  32. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Any Battle of Britain planes, Pete? A Skype game could be arranged to fix that WGS issue ...
    Yep (haven't repainted my Hurricanes yet, though)
    109s / Spits / Beaufighters and 110s / Stukas and 'einkels.

    Might need to take you up on that.

  33. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashdash View Post
    By the way. I'm not sure if Erich Hartmann ever flew a Bf 109 K-4.
    His last known aircraft (at least he flew it on his 350th win on April 17th 1945) was a Bf 109 G-10 from Erla Leipzig.

    Here is the paint scheme of Major Erich Hartmann's Bf 109 G-10 with his Gruppenkommandeur's Doppel-winkel according to photos and the data available .
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	200505

    The yellow band on the front over the tulip and the yellow rudder on the minis seem to be fiction as well.

    There is an interesting blog falkeeins.blogspot.de on this
    This was discussed on another thread; and there is no conclusion available.
    On the plus side, the differences between the Gustav and Karl are minimal, esp. at 1/200 scale. The rear of the canopy is all I can see.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  34. #84

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    OK, I got mine unboxed: it looks like 1 of the 3 sku numbers (112B) has the mortar tubes; something of an oversight, but at least consistent.
    Personally, looking at them, they aren't bad (except for the missing gunpods); I'm not seeing the wing shape issue with normal vision. The tail is a bit noticeable, but not badly. Overall, I can play with this.

    Roberto: if you recall, concerns were raised back in March about this miniature:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...159#post394159
    which you addressed. However, in retrospect, you did not offer a straight on top or side view, to compare with the drawings Andrzej posted. So his comments are not unexpected.
    As I said at the time, I'm satisfied with the product, and might buy a few more, depending on my repainting whims. However, it is not a quality I think your company should be proud of, nor repeat.
    I do appreciate that you will address us here, and I also appreciate that you listen to us. You have a great game, and we could only wish for more of it.
    Respectfully,
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  35. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by robdimeglio View Post
    Gentlemen, your complaints here are read, and duly noted.
    I will have to re-check the (many steps of) our pre-production and production flow to find out what went wrong with the details on the BF.109-K.
    Mistakes do happen.
    We're a very small company doing very complex products, for a very passionate and experienced audience like you are in mind.
    As someone kindly noted, 3 out of 4 models in this release were from good to superb. From a gameplay point of view, all of them improve upon our previous format. One of the models is insufficient or barely sufficient.
    This is not something I can be proud of, but I am sure most of you will agree this means we don't care about this line, or that we don't listen to complaints.
    Please count the number of models we released in WW1, WW2 and Sails of Glory, and count how many of them you have to be disappointed with.
    That said, I can assure you I will definitely do my best to make sure that the kind of error in our process that affected the quality of this model won't happen again. I cannot promise we won't ever, ever do a mistake again
    I also very much appreciate the tone of this discussion. Even when complaining, you show a great amount of love and respect for our products and our company, and I will do every effort to return your support appropriately.
    Thank you Roberto for your response.
    It is always great to see that the concerns of the playing community are heard.

    As I mentioned before I fully understand that such problems can happen in the production process.
    It is always a challenge to find the ideal balance between cost and quality.
    The main thing though is that we can learn from these problems and try to prevent them the next time.
    We have a saying in German that "the one that stops trying to be better has stopped beeing good".
    So I'm looking foward to the things to come...

    I am so thankfull for Ares keeping these games alive

    Mille grazie!

  36. #86

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    Would this be of use to anyone?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    PS: No, it isn't a picture of a Bf-109, but it is a rocket launcher.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-15-2017 at 00:08.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  37. #87

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    IMHO this is a faulty product. The item does not even match the labelling. Under most civilised countries consumer laws it would be refund time.
    Seriously guys! ARES do not practice quality control at all? Seems to me that they should have checked them out or had someone who knew what they were about check them out before taking all your money. I am pleased I resisted the strong urge to get back into WWII planes but fear greatly for the upcoming series III WWI reprints.

  38. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    IMHO this is a faulty product. The item does not even match the labelling. Under most civilised countries consumer laws it would be refund time.
    Seriously guys! ARES do not practice quality control at all? Seems to me that they should have checked them out or had someone who knew what they were about check them out before taking all your money. I am pleased I resisted the strong urge to get back into WWII planes but fear greatly for the upcoming series III WWI reprints.
    It is not all doom and gloom Gary, most of the WGS (and WGF) miniatures produced rate from acceptable to excellent. Bearing that in mind it is not surprising the examples that fall short are glaringly obvious. Read Roberto's post above for the view from Ares - http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...l=1#post410319

    I did not buy my WGS aircraft as scale models but reasonably accurate gaming pieces. In a game even the 109K still looks OK at arms length across the table, especially when you open up on an opponent at close range and deliver a devastating salvo!

  39. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Would this be of use to anyone?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Equipment_Cards_BR21_Fighters.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	251.0 KB 
ID:	219001

    PS: No, it isn't a picture of a Bf-109, but it is a rocket launcher.
    Well isn't that a nice piece of equipment

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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