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Thread: wacky wings red baron fans

  1. #1

    Default wacky wings red baron fans

    Having watched a commercial for the planet snoopy at kings island amusement park and seeing the red baron flying ride, made me wonder why the red baron is so popular outside of Germany. His persona passed off as a perfect gentleman who would force pilots to land so he may fight them another day, making a sporting event of it all, while in actuality he tried to aim his guns at the heads of enemy pilots before aquiring his second target on the plane. So my question is this, what draws you to the Red Baron?...The story of who he was? Or who he really was?
    Last edited by spookiedfx; 05-31-2016 at 15:05.

  2. #2

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    Oh boy I sense a heated debate on this one... I personally don't know enough about him, being a WW2 nut myself.

  3. #3

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    Ah, the difference between myth and history.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  4. #4

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    I'm not "drawn to him" any more than to any other pilot; I think he has such a high profile because he was a "celebrity" in his own country, and particularly in the newspapers, and was the clear highest scorer at the time of his death; plus there was the flamboyant Red aeroplane. Also, his victories were scored against the Western Allies, which made them more 'personal' to those Allied nations which fought against him.

    Contrast this to Erich Hartmann, in WW2, who scored his massive total in the relative obscurity of the Eastern Front, so is virtually unknown in the West. In addition, there were a wealth of other pilots with huge scores, while von Richthofen was well out in front of his colleagues at the time of his death.
    Last edited by Flying Helmut; 06-04-2016 at 14:42.
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    Absolutely - the Red Baron's popularity boils down to cool red aeroplanes and fantastic media relations rather than any intrinsic quantities. The muddied circumstances of his death probably helped a bit too.

  6. #6

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    Frankly, I'd have rather hung out with Boelcke, Udet or Voss than MvR or Goering.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Frankly, I'd have rather hung out with Boelcke, Udet or Voss than MvR or Goering.
    I agree & could I add Kurt Wolf & Joseph Jacobs to your list?
    Last edited by gully_raker; 06-03-2016 at 17:28.

  8. #8

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    I always found it interesting to look at his kills...Quite a few 2 seaters in the early days. He was good, no doubt there, but watching the news reels I always got the feeling he was like a big kid.

  9. #9

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    Manfred von Richthofen holds out attention because of his fame as a Great War ace and the boldness of his choice of colourful aircraft, but it was his personal attributes that enabled him to achieve success,

    He loved hunting from an early age and the patience and persistence he learned hunting deer paid off when he exchanged the rifle for a fighter aircraft.

    Manfred was supremely fit and had been since he was a child - stories of his climbing ability were legendary - and as a cavalry officer he won many an endurance race on horseback. This fitness served him well in the cold open cockpits of Great War aircraft, so debilitating to the body and spirit.

    He was a very determined individual. There is a story that he arrived at the local train station from visiting relatives at the tender age of 8. None of his family was there to meet him and he had two huge suitcases holding his belongings. Unwilling to wait he began the long walk to his family estate. Unable to carry both bags he would take one a way down the road, then walk back and get the other one, carrying that past the first then coming back repeating the process. In this way he continued until he reached his home. He attacked every challenge with that single-minded determination.

    He was patriotic, ambitious and possessed personal courage. With the cavalry out of a job on the Western front von Richthofen was assigned as a supply officer in the Verdun sector. He had already won the Iron Cross and could have sat out his days in relative safety but that was not enough for Manfred. He applied to his commanding General for a transfer to the Flying Service stating "I did not go to war to gather cheese and eggs, but for another purpose." Later after he was wounded he refused to give up operational flying not being prepared to ask his men to take risks he could not share himself. He stated in a letter home "I would become miserable if now, honoured with glory and decorations, I became a pensioner of my own dignity in order to preserve my precious life ... while every poor fellow in the trenches endures his duty exactly as I did mine."

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Frankly, I'd have rather hung out with Boelcke, Udet or Voss than MvR or Goering.
    The tacticians and the more intellectually minded found within the German Ranks. As opposed to the meathead mentality of downing as many opposition as possible along with a few falsifications along the way. Put another way Quality not Quantity in the effective achievement of their objective.

    Those are two good names from you as well Barry especially Jacobs.

    But one of my burning questions of The Great War would be for Stark ... How on earth did he manage to paint WGF115C pink like that?!

    Note: Apologies for WGF115C instead of aircraft type - I have forgotten which it is despite ordering it the other day from Keith!)

  11. #11

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    Good point, but I was looking more at character personally--Udet profiles much like a Rommel of the air, a good man tragically born in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't care if you're literally the top mind in the world at what you do, if you fail the character test in my eyes you'll never be anything more than a tool to be used or disposed of depending which side of the ledger your Cost-Benefit Ratio falls on.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  12. #12

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    The exoticness of a triplane combined with the very bright red colour, tied into the "Knight of the Air" mythos. At airshows and the like I talk to people who aren't massive aviation nuts, and they always pick out the "Red Baron"'s aeroplane but have no idea what you're talking about if you say MvR. Likewise I've seen people try and "correct" other people when they point out MvR's red Albatros, with "no the red baron flew a triplane".


    I personally find the careers of pilots like Collishaw far more interesting.. but even people who consider themselves WWI history buffs in my own country often have no idea about the all-Canadian "Anti-Richthofen" flight. Just like I've heard people say the Sopwith Tripe "copied the Red Baron's aeroplane".

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Good point, but I was looking more at character personally--Udet profiles much like a Rommel of the air, a good man tragically born in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't care if you're literally the top mind in the world at what you do, if you fail the character test in my eyes you'll never be anything more than a tool to be used or disposed of depending which side of the ledger your Cost-Benefit Ratio falls on.
    At a personal level Rommel and von Richthofen have similar personalities. Both were driven men, very ambitious and determined to be the best in their chosen fields, both promoted early in their careers, both personally brave and not prepared to ask their men to do what they would not. Neither suffered fools - Rommel was known to readily dismiss subordinates and von Richthofen had a standing order that his pilots had to score within the first month or they would be transferred.

    I would say both were consummate military professionals.

  14. #14

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    True on command style--as a person, MvR was more of a predator in a uniform, though, I'd almost call him a Serial Killer On Wings even given his obsession with "whack the pilot".

    It was probably a good thing that he went down the way he did, I don't think he would've fared well in postwar life.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    It was probably a good thing that he went down the way he did, I don't think he would've fared well in postwar life.
    Al-hist I've been fiddling with: MvR survives the crash landing, and ends the war in a hospital; he awakes from a coma in time to see Weimar at its worst, and returns to Germany to "put things right". Among other matters, this does involve going head-on against a certain Bavarian Corporal and his ilk, who are *not* pleased to see an Actual War Hero showing up (why do you think they brought Fat Hermann on board?).

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Al-hist I've been fiddling with: MvR survives the crash landing, and ends the war in a hospital; he awakes from a coma in time to see Weimar at its worst, and returns to Germany to "put things right". Among other matters, this does involve going head-on against a certain Bavarian Corporal and his ilk, who are *not* pleased to see an Actual War Hero showing up (why do you think they brought Fat Hermann on board?).
    An interesting thought; he might have ended up like Rudolf Berthold.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    An interesting thought; he might have ended up like Rudolf Berthold.
    Karl
    Possible; but with the "stroke" MvR had, it's also possible he might have been able to form a power base such that he'd have people to prevent that....

  18. #18

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    "in actuality he tried to aim his guns at the heads of enemy pilots before aquiring his second target on the plane."

    Might this not have been his means of granting his enemy a merciful death? Given a choice between being shot in the head or plummeting 5,000 feet to my death, or being roasted alive, I'll take being shot any day.

  19. #19

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    Von Richthofen was a hunter - you don't shoot the limbs of a deer to bring it down, you put one through the heart (not the head, ruin a perfectly good trophy!). Firearms instructors on the range talk about 'aim small hit small'. Same with air fighting. Planes are a big target, aim for the pilot and you may take him out but if not you will still hit vital components - engine, fuel tanks, instruments. Manfred did not mess about because you might only get one chance to take down your quarry, kill or be killed. I know that if I am in a fight for my life I will be quickly placing a string of well aimed shots into the 'armpit hold' until the threat stops, no messing about with any 'just shoot them in the leg' rubbish. First accurate shot wins a gunfight.

    During the Great War chivalric courtesies were certainly extended to downed pilots and fallen foes but up in the air it was generally a merciless affair.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by von Fustercluck View Post
    "in actuality he tried to aim his guns at the heads of enemy pilots before aquiring his second target on the plane."

    Might this not have been his means of granting his enemy a merciful death? Given a choice between being shot in the head or plummeting 5,000 feet to my death, or being roasted alive, I'll take being shot any day.
    No. It was absolutely a method to down the plane as quickly as possible.

  21. #21

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    A group of us were recently discussing a similar point: why the Red Baron became such an iconic figure of the Great War, especially in the US. We figured two things helped -- the recurring Snoopy v Red Baron storyline in the Peanuts comic strip --and the popular novelty song by The Royal Guardsmen of 1966-67.

    Peanuts was extraordinarily popular during the heyday of newspapers, and the storyline popped up at least once a year during the incredibly long run of the strip. What do you think?

  22. #22

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    Certainly Peanuts would had have an influence; It did for me
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus



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