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Thread: The Future of WGF: Community Thoughts and Brainstorming?

  1. #1

    Default The Future of WGF: Community Thoughts and Brainstorming?

    Folks, as noted in this thread:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...next-Print-run
    we only have a finite amount of sculpts before we run out of new planes--and Ares will have to look in new directions to keep the game alive. I thought it might be worth doing to try to help them brainstorm new directions they can take the line in to get more mileage out of available tooling, including the half-dozen or so remaining potential future sets...

    Some of my own ideas:
    • Pivoting to "story driven," filling in the missing planes needed to represent the top Aces' complete careers
    • In tandem with the above, Scenario Books playing out each Ace's career
    • The notable opponents of each Ace: the big names they beat, who beat them, and just encounters like Udet vs Guynemers
    • Filling out the rosters of famous units at a specific point, like Richthofen's Circus, "Black Flight" or No. 56 Squadron's dogpile on Voss


    What would you guys want to see as we draw toward Sculpt Completion to delay the moment When The Music Stops?
    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-22-2016 at 20:04.
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  2. #2

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    The way I see it is they already have a great line of finished models, they could put all of them through several repaints each. They could offer them as unfinished kits. They could sell accessories and game aids. They could remodel some new observation balloons. They could add pilot cards. Famous dog fights dual packs with history pamplets. Double size game mat. Lets not forget the standard issue non hero pilot planes. How about some war damaged models as well......theres so much unfinished business.

  3. #3

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    Kermit, we've asked about DIY kits before and been repeatedly shot down like rookies tangling with Richthofen. They're quite adamant about "Unbox, Unwrap and Play" as a brand-integrity issue.
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  4. #4

    Exclamation

    There are still quite a few "Iconic" Aircraft that need to be done. BE2 c, Sopwith Pup, DH-5, Big Ack, DH-9, Sopwith Dolphin, Morane Parasol & Morane Biplane, Fokker DI, II or III, Pfalz E I, II or III & Taube just off the top of my head.
    Then there are the Seaplanes: Felixstowe, Sopwith Baby, Short Folder & the Hansa Brandenbergs.

  5. #5

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    Barry, I think my table indicates eight potential "mainline" sets remaining. Maybe we can get it up to a dozen if we can find four more Entente scouts of significance, but that's still only a finite number of years to Sculpt-pocalypse on the "regular series."
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
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  6. #6

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    Campaign scenario booklets are a good idea. I have been working on something like that for WGS in what spare time I have (not much).

    WGF reprints will sustain the hobby going forward, and the idea of squadron packs will be welcome.

  7. #7

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    Carl, in the example I cited, that'd be "filling out the roster one reprint squadronmate at a time." Rob's filled me in a little on the plan to bulk up the numbers for WGS squadrons, but with the narrow exception of a few specific British outfits I don't think what he's figured out will translate well across into WGF.

    Sorry I can't be more detailed, NDA.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
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  8. #8

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    Few ideas,

    First a few squadron releases

    Say the Red Barons Jasta with 6 different paint jobs of his units Dr1's. The some more generic British S.E.5 squadrons with 6 different paint jobs from the same squadron. Rather then allow aces to mix it up, encourage unit fights of more then one or two planes.

    Also the game seems to be in need of timeline matchups. Some sort of timeline based campaign game where as it goes along new aircraft get brought in while other types get retired. Again make decent numbers of the planes needed avalible in a timely manner.

    While the aces are cool and iconic, unit paint jobs seem to be needed. Again some sort of balanceing system is a must have in the future based on points and time avalibility. Rather then selling one or two planes at a time 4 plane squadron boxes might go over better.

    As a last note the avalibility of planes from previous prints have to be more avalible quickly to encourage growth in the game. New players have a VERY limited choice and if the game owners are not careful Shapeways and later home 3D printers will take over their miniature business. Nice paintjobs are neat, but if they are unavalible at reasonable prices players WILL find other sources for their models.

  9. #9

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    Scenario/Campaign Books would be nice indeed.

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    As someone who only got back into the game quite recently we need to see reissues of early series WoG and WoW planes. Early war planes such as DH2s are now impossible to get hold even from the US never mind the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtschwärmer View Post
    Scenario/Campaign Books would be nice indeed.

  11. #11

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    Another idea: How would you guys feel about "Reduced" Series? For example, say a Series 1 re-run that only keeps the four from the Rookie Pack and adds one new-to-Ares (whether reprint-of-Nexus or all-new) version for each sculpt. (Instead of WGF101 to 104 A/B/C inclusive, it'd just be 101A-104A with new 101D-104D, eight offerings instead of twelve.)

    I still wish they'd preallocated SKU's for all the old Nexus minis so they could just pick up where they left off, but that ship sailed long ago and I don't wanna be like Boney on the Tripe. LOL
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    Speaking of the rookie pack what we need is something like the old duel packs. I go in lots of shops that should sell WoG and see rack after rack of prominently displayed X-Wing or Armada. If they have any WoG at all it's a few planes tucked in a corner with a boxed rule set if you're lucky but nothing that says pick up and play like the X-Wing starter set.

    The planes are really attractive, particularly WGF, so surely putting a couple of colourful or iconic planes in a box with the rules and labelling it Starter Set would encourage shops to stock WoG and bring more people in, particularly kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Another idea: How would you guys feel about "Reduced" Series? For example, say a Series 1 re-run that only keeps the four from the Rookie Pack and adds one new-to-Ares (whether reprint-of-Nexus or all-new) version for each sculpt. (Instead of WGF101 to 104 A/B/C inclusive, it'd just be 101A-104A with new 101D-104D, eight offerings instead of twelve.)

    I still wish they'd preallocated SKU's for all the old Nexus minis so they could just pick up where they left off, but that ship sailed long ago and I don't wanna be like Boney on the Tripe. LOL

  13. #13

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    I guess this highlights one advantage WGS has over WGF. The sheer volume of beautiful birds far outnumbers those of the Great War.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A0S View Post
    Speaking of the rookie pack what we need is something like the old duel packs.
    They are at least aware of that one - I certainly wouldn't bet on actually seeing them next month, and especially not in Europe, but the release schedule on Ares' site includes:

    "June 2016 - WGF001X – WW1 Wings of Glory – Duel Pack(reprint)"

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    Well that's good to see. Hopefully they will make it clear this is a 'starter set' and contains everything you need to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    They are at least aware of that one - I certainly wouldn't bet on actually seeing them next month, and especially not in Europe, but the release schedule on Ares' site includes:

    "June 2016 - WGF001X – WW1 Wings of Glory – Duel Pack(reprint)"

  16. #16

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    And, we actually have a prototype "scenario pack" right there in the Brown-Richthofen pack, just that I wish they would've reversed the Tripes between it and retail and it'd need an added booklet on the historical fight. (I understand why they keep red w/Eisernekreuz 425/17 as the "flagship mini," though, it's THE icon of WWI.)
    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-23-2016 at 09:24.
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  17. #17

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    I'd like to see balloons, Scenario/Campaign Books and possibly balloons.

  18. #18

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    Squadron sets of 3 planes would be nice. The Germans have the upper hand with more colorful later Jasta paint schemes but a lot of interesting squadrons are out there. Attention could be brought to specific fronts in one shot. Not much so far on the Italian/Austrian front, less on Russia or the Middle East so there is a lot of ground to cover.
    Scenario books with mini campaigns would be real nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    And, we actually have a prototype "scenario pack" right there in the Brown-Richthofen pack, just that I wish they would've reversed the Tripes between it and retail and it'd need an added booklet on the historical fight. (I understand why they keep red w/Eisernekreuz 425/17 as the "flagship mini," though, it's THE icon of WWI.)
    It could be if they had got the colour scheme correct. I'm amazed they haven't done 425/17 in it's final condition.

    The problem I see going forwards is that new releases will become ever more esoteric, perhaps with one or two exceptions like the much needed Pup, and the real workhorses of the war such as the SE5a remain unavailable. I think they are really going to need to address this. Anybody new going into the game needs to be able to buy the Red Baron and SE5a etc. The heavy prices on eBay reflect the massive demand for these common types that are now OOP. That's all potential lost revenue. I'd jump the reprints of S3 and S4 ahead of anything new.

    Personally I'd like to see a flight in a box. If a big bomber can sell for Ł50+ then a box of five planes, all of the same type, from one flight could perhaps be sold at a discount over the single plane price and we'd have whole flights ready to use. As Mentioned Jasta 11 in their triplanes or Albatros would be great. Jasta 5 in the Albatros would be very pretty. 209 in their Camels or 56 in the SE5a the list goes on…

    Were I directing the marketing my concept might be hackneyed but I would centre the game, for the mass market, on the Red Baron. Almost everybody has heard of him. Currently the marketing is driven by the planes but I'd drive it using the history and the people who took part, as for many it's a more engaging angle. I'd get all the MVR planes out so they are always available then release suitable others, his Jasta(s), JG1, some of the 80 he shot down, those who notably fought against him – inc 56 squadron. Then add in other key ace say Fonck or Rickenbacker and do the same. I'd always aim to keep the core models available.

    If they continue as they are then I'd say look at the the naval stuff or the Home Defence in more detail. There's lots of directions it could go in aside from just making more weird and wonderful planes that might well be putting off new players starting precisely because they can't get the common stuff that almost everybody wants. And finally they need to get the colours right – so many aren't and this information is now pretty easy to get right or at least make the models significantly better. MvR, Rickenbacker, Voss are all incorrect.

    Alternatively I might just go 'pretty' and release lots of DVII and D111/DVas in the most outrageous but historical colours. All the Albatros have been a disappointment in one way or another. The other thing that I know they want to do is to change the tooling so they don't have to work in fours,. My fear of this is that we'll see new tools with the slab wings that they are now going for and what's causing me to hunt out the older versions as they look better. (Since I repaint the colours don't matter.)

    As much as I'd like to see unpainted kits, it's never going to happen and makes no sense for them to release these. We really ought to bombard Revell to add them into their pre-coloured snap together range.
    Last edited by Timmo UK; 05-23-2016 at 12:08.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by A0S View Post
    ...If they have any WoG at all it's a few planes tucked in a corner with a boxed rule set if you're lucky but nothing that says pick up and play like the X-Wing starter set....
    You're not wrong Andrew - part of the problem with that was that those sets, when they did exist, were twice the price of the X-Wing starter sets as they stand now (and likely to be more if they did it again) so well out of reach of some kids, even the big ones. (we seem to pay pounds for dollars). They weren't bad value but that was too big an outlay to dip your toe in for most.

    "He is wise who watches"

  21. #21

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    Here's some other data for consideration:
    --Balloons are in the pipe, a question of "WHEN" rather than "If."
    --Squadron Packs: Rob looked at the numbers, and found there just wasn't enough cost savings in it. This leads me to suggest the idea of splitting Wings into a "Basic" and a "Premium" line, with the Premium offerings costing a little more but giving you a little extra in return. Also, one thing they've been very adamant about is catering to the guys who can only afford 1 or 2 planes at a time--a stance I can appreciate from when I missed out on Series 2 at retail because I couldn't get the Evil Queen of Numbers to get off her dead arse, sign the paperwork and let me do what needed to be done. ("Carry dangerous weapons in public and make life/death decisions every day, sure--manage his own money, HELL NO!" Anybody else think something sounds a little Effed Up there?) Personally, I think to make the Cost-Benefit work, you'd have to up the price a bit and include a book on the squadron and its pilots while they flew that plane, but Rob seems to be tunnel-visioned on keeping the price-points as low as he can while still making a decent ROI for his bosses. (Bear in mind, this is just my impression, I could be wrong.)

    Tim, I've suggested they consider giving Early 425/17 a rest and reinterpret the rule of "always has to be a Richthofen" into "can be any of the planes he flew of that type, not just the Big Red One." Hell, I still want 102/17, his first Dreidecker...

    So let's add another question: What kinds of Value Added would you guys consider enough to justify adding a buck or two per plane to a product's MSRP?

    Backing up a little, my thinking was reducing reprints to "one old and one new" per sculpt might allow faster time between runs, upping the game to two re-runs a year instead of one and possibly cycling things back into production faster.
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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmo UK View Post
    The heavy prices on eBay reflect the massive demand for these common types that are now OOP. That's all potential lost revenue. I'd jump the reprints of S3 and S4 ahead of anything new.
    I could not agree more. Seriously though that is lost revenue. And even though I'm a new player I've seen a lot of talk about the SE 5a

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmo UK View Post
    Personally I'd like to see a flight in a box. If a big bomber can sell for Ł50+ then a box of five planes, all of the same type, from one flight could perhaps be sold at a discount over the single plane price and we'd have whole flights ready to use. As Mentioned Jasta 11 in their triplanes or Albatros would be great. Jasta 5 in the Albatros would be very pretty. 209 in their Camels or 56 in the SE5a the list goes on…
    What a brilliant idea. Buy a box and all of the planes are from the same squadron. Or expand the Deluxe to 4 planes 2 on each side and have that be a ready to play and reasonably balances selection of planes. Add some ground figures and Balloons. I know I keep saying Balloons (because I don't have any) but that is an attention getter.

    Also, as I said above, I agree that scenarios are a great tool. Labor intensive but sometime worth it. I would recommend that:
    A) They be independence scenarios
    B) Reasonably placed historical planes but the emphasis should be on play balance. No one want to loose all the time.
    C) Have a way to advance your pilot as you complete the scenarios. This is a very basic way to combine completely different scenarios.
    D) Have a selection, if not all, of the scenarios able to link into a grand campaign. But if you do then you also need to have not only a way for pilots to advance but also for replacement planes and the ability to change planes.

    Death Matches are fun but completing your missions even against the odds is lots of fun.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    [...]Also, one thing they've been very adamant about is catering to the guys who can only afford 1 or 2 planes at a time--a stance I can appreciate [...]
    I think keeping the game within reach of the masses is an excellent idea.

    Also there has to be a buy in and the LGS. Some big, tournaments at every convention they can get to. Prize custom paint jobs but nothing that won't be a general release in the future. Advertise, setup demo days as LGS. I've gone to four different LGS. CSI has them on line; another said they could get the stuff in if I wanted.

  24. #24

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    As I said I think we need reasonably priced intro games to bring more people in. The squadron boxes etc. sound great and many of us would probably buy them even at a premium price but unless we can give people an easy way in we'll be trying to sell ever more obscure and probably expensive planes to an ever smaller audience which is not a great business model. We need to cater for both the newbie and the serious collector.

    Just my 2p.

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    Just another thought couldn't some of the more esoteric stuff like Jasta boxes be kickstarted while the main production was used to keep the basics in print?

  26. #26

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    Pricing will allways be a big issue. I don't think a five plane set would sell as well as a three or two plane one.
    I'm with Peter (Teaticket) on this one

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    I think the planes have to be available as singles and I don't think that will ever change.

    How about the models in basic factory finish no markings at all but with self-adhesive stickers so you can 'stick and play'. Other sheets of stickers would be available. I'm talking self-adhesive stickers not decals, leave decals to the after market folks. If ARES want to do a particular pilot just do the sticker set – lots of variants can be done quickly. This would reduce production costs as some planes can be printed in just about 3 or 4 colours. One printed model could cover dozens of options given the sticker sets.

    The repainters get basic factory colours to decal and repaint as they like but for others there is an easily customisable cheaper entry level model.

    It's the newbie I'm most conscious off. I know that were I new to this I wouldn't get involved at the moment. The business model in my view should be to keep those few key scouts types in the shops all the time.

    Sets of 3 , 5 or 6 as Kickstaters would be great. And show us the intended colour schemes to avoid the clangers we've seen that a few Osprey books would put right!

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by A0S View Post
    Just another thought couldn't some of the more esoteric stuff like Jasta boxes be kickstarted while the main production was used to keep the basics in print?
    Problem with that is, D2C sales channels piss off the retailers: "If they're gonna undercut us by selling direct, why should we buy their stuff and try to sell it?"

    Ares has already had enough problems on that front, a buddy had to close his shop because almost his entire business was built around Wings and Sails and their unreliable delivery schedules were wreaking havoc on keeping his other commitments. Me, I'd try to schedule it so a given type of release always fell about the same time in the year, plus or minus a week or two...

    Another fact we have to consider is that we're used to big heavy-hitters like FFG, WOTC and WizKids--Ares is a very small company that's generally been able to punch way above their weight class, which does hamstring them a bit.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-23-2016 at 14:01.
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    It's the unreliable stock levels I mean, keep as many of the basic planes, duel packs and rule sets in print and on a regular delivery schedule and make anything more esoteric / expensive as KS exclusive. The shops can't complain because they're getting regular deliveries of stuff that actually sells and they aren't being undercut because the KS exclusive stuff is exactly that. Kickstarting the bigger sets also gives an idea of interest; don't have 100 people willing to pay Ł100 for a set of 6 Dr1s? Fine don't make it.

  30. #30

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    I like your idea with an 8 plane release, DB. One old and one new. It speaks to both newbie and veteran.

  31. #31

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    i like the campaign rules/scenarios pack idea. i think a separate aircraft timeline might be popular with players into the game for not just the history. also i think packs about the history and course of the war and airwar specifically. sure theres a lot of sources of ww1 history but why not have something for those who got into the game for the game not the history "under one roof" so to speak from ares?

  32. #32

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    Liking the KS angle..
    Slight twist on it though...do your normal releases of standard planes and paint jobs. Have a reliable production schedule of the normal basic airframes in standard colors. Use KS for releases of the Ace/special paint job planes. The KS will generate the cash to cover overhead on the production of the custom decals and paint jobs. Meanwhile steady standard production of the basic models should drive costs down due to volume and ease of production. This also KEEPS the basic airframes avalible to newer players and those building up their collections. Every time a player buys E-bay or Shapeway the designer loses money but right now we do not have any other choice to build airfleets.

    As another bit jump the price of the rules up to $50 and add 2 random aircraft only gotten in the rules set. Something like custom paints of the first release models. Make em new and different so it not only encourages people to buy new rules, it gives them a unique pair of aircraft AND allows them to open the box and play while keeping the entry price down. 4 or better yet 8 new paint jobs made just for the box sets. No windows or hints, just one random plane from each side....HMMM....SE5a and Camel for one side Fokker D7 and Tripe for the other.

  33. #33

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    One quibble: NEVER Random--that way lies CMG tournament madness like [s]Munchkin[/s]MechWarrior. Fixed content if we're going to have planes, maybe two exclusives to that box. Makin people buy a new rulepack everytime they turn around just reeks of cash-grab, and I'm pretty sure that'll go over like a lead balloon since one of Andrea A.'s non-negotiables on licensing Wings to Ares was full forward and backward compatibility with the original Nexus releases.

    Trust me, a tournament scene like Mechwarrior or Magic with its nasty powergaming Munchkins is the LAST thing we want associated with the brand... in a niche like this, we need to *encourage* the rookies and *discourage* those who would stomp all over them.

    Anybody else who's actually BEEN a Tourney Scene Gamer care to chime in with your horror stories?
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  34. #34

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    I do not like the idea of having to buy new sets of the rules to obtain special aircraft. I had enough of 'ultra rares' when I collected some CCG's. Anyway the rules are in too short supply anyway for new players, without making it harder for them to buy them because of collectors wanting rare models.

    What does need attention is the constant shortage of stock in shops.

  35. #35

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    Just to clarify...was not talking about the planes only being avalible in the box sets, just special paint jobs. You could still get Camels or Fokkers in the standard line up just not that particular paint job.

    Due to history I can see some issues with it only being avalible in boxes. Been building my collection nicely, even got a balloon box set in good condition...but.....there is this DH 2 issue. SO this gets the point accross that ALL plane types need to be avalible at ALL times to properly feed the need. Special paint jobs??...well...that can be done at a slower rate.

  36. #36

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    A lot like the WGS thread from 8 or 10 months ago.
    In my view, keep the iconic planes available at all times - the ones the 'punters' may have actually heard of,
    I would love to have more Albatros D.III, DH.2 and SE.5a - I am lucky to have a few of those, but had to pay $$ for them (at least not the $$$$$ they are going for now)
    I like the squadron idea - not being a painter/modeler anymore I would like to have multiples that look like they belong together instead of patchwork of different nationalities.
    Last edited by Stumptonian; 05-24-2016 at 20:27.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    What does need attention is the constant shortage of stock in shops.
    Could not agree more David. The lack of LFGS shelf stock is hampering the recruitment of new players. When I see an entire wall at a shop devoted to Star Wars X-Wing miniatures it is not surprising that system is now so popular and WGF/WGS has been relegated to the status of a niche game. Whatever happens the game needs a steady supply of product. Reprints of popular lines would satisfy that requirement.
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 05-23-2016 at 20:54.

  38. #38

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    The other thing is, what are the core group? It might also work to just re-run Series 1 once a year in addition to the "one new, one reprint, one special" current model.
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Every time a player buys E-bay or Shapeway the designer loses money but right now we do not have any other choice to build airfleets.
    Leaving aside the fact that it was Shapeways that was largely responsible for keeping interest in the game alive when nexus folded and before Ares got going, and that many subjects of Shapeways models will never be financially viable as "official" product, I'd say you are being charitable there. Whether the designer loses money when someone buys a Shapeways Camel or Fokker Triplane or SE5a isn't clear and depends on the contractual arrangement that he has with Ares. More to the point, each of those sales is a failure on the part of the manufacturer to promote and support their product. If they are serious about keeping this game going long term then they need to identify that "core product", those half dozen or so aircraft that everyone - new players in particular - is going to want as the core of their collection and make sure that those, as well as the rules and materials either in "dogfight doubles" starter packs or through RAPS, are available. All of the time. It is rather soul destroying to be out there at shows promoting the game but having to tell prospective players that the basic components are hard or impossible to come by.

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    Let's not go collectable I like to know what I'm buying. Also $50 for a set is far too much if you want to bring in new players. As previously stated that will become Ł50 in the UK, at time of writing the X-Wing starter set is under Ł25 with three models. That's the sort of price point you need to look to look at particularly for younger players.

    Also re the shortage of stock; take the Fokker EIII, relatively easy to get Austro-Hungarian or Ottomon models but what's happened to the only actual German model in the series flown by one of the most famous pilots of the war? It's disappeared! Surely that's the sort of plane that should always be available?


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    As another bit jump the price of the rules up to $50 and add 2 random aircraft only gotten in the rules set. Something like custom paints of the first release models. Make em new and different so it not only encourages people to buy new rules, it gives them a unique pair of aircraft AND allows them to open the box and play while keeping the entry price down. 4 or better yet 8 new paint jobs made just for the box sets. No windows or hints, just one random plane from each side....HMMM....SE5a and Camel for one side Fokker D7 and Tripe for the other.
    Last edited by A0S; 05-23-2016 at 22:39.

  41. #41

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    OK, I can see the issue with collectable/unique figures...But the truth is they have already gone that way. 2 out of 3 sculpts per type of plane changed in the first 2 series when they were re released, there were also the Nieuport 16's you could only get in the balloon box, then the duel set/ 4 plane basic set lineup you could only get with those sets. We are also talking about changing out sculpts for new series 3 and 4 reprints. I am afraid we are well into the collectable zone already. By adding unique sculpts to the starter set it rewards new players for buying into the game. Also collectors are likely to buy them for the planes and give away the rules to a friend getting them involved.

    The trick is to keep the basic planes avalible at all times (no more SE5a/DH 2 gaps) Doing that with basic sculpts in squadron colors in packs of 2 to 4 is a start. That way they can keep pushing the rare "Ace" paint jobs at slightly higher prices while keeping the prices of mass produced "squadron" sculpts down(also give them blank base stands saving on printing and inventory). Another issue is they will have to zero in on a timeframe and keep the basic sculpts in that time frame. No handfull of late/end of war planes with a bunch of early/mid war planes thrown in. While the rule book is nice, compact, and simple, they need a campaign book with missions, plane lineups, and avalibility timelines. I have seen a points system already worked up on this web site and that is a HUGE step in the correct direction.

    I agree, everything should be backward compatable and all sculpts should be useable. We just could use some order and proper pointing system to balance things. There is nothing wrong with what we have now, it is a good game. It is just when they switched from cards to models it got a lot more difficult to supply or even get the proper playing peices. This seems to be a major problem and a price point for some thinking of entering the game. Componant avalibility (planes) is a huge issue here and I see it as a major reason the game has not drawn a larger following. As it is now you can buy in for $25 to $30 dollers for rules and parts, but still need another $30 worth of planes before you can even play. Hence my suggestion of a 2 plane box set for starters.

  42. #42

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    Actually, they do have to rotate some on the re-runs to give us Day One-ers reason to buy at least part of the new set. I could be wrong on this, but my understanding is that at some point they do intend to eventually re-offer all the old paint schemes--I'll ask for a clear statement up-or-down on that.

    There *is* a 2-plane starter, albeit with stripped-down rules: the Duel Packs split from the old Revised Deluxe Set. My understanding--bear in mind I don't own either DP since I already own an original RDS--is that the design is you try it out with a DP, then buy the RAP and a couple planes and build out from there. The catch for this model working is they need to maintain regular availability of the DP's, RAP and "gateway drug" minis...

    Here's another problem: who wants a generic Jasta 11 Dr.I? Pretty much just us hardcore guys, the casual gamer wants to go straight to his Red Baron or Rickenbacker or Barker--he just wants his famous names, and the typical Pure Collector is about the same way--he doesn't care about some no-name Willi von Vurtderfurk even if he WAS one of the Red Baron's wingmen.

    They have several different markets to address, and a real challenge balancing those different groups' contradicting and competing interests enough to ensure that even if nobody gets everything they want, everybody gets *enough* of what they want to keep them coming back for more. Hell, I still remember some of the temper-tantrums and jumping-up-and-down like an Organ Grinder's Monkey on Crack from some of the pure-financial-interest collectors when the news broke that there were gonna be reprints at all... "WAAAAAAAAAAAAH THERE GOES MY INVESTMENT NOT FAIR!" Frankly, having to put those kinds of deals together is a job that I'm *damn* thankful is in somebody else's hands...

    Let me stipulate for the record, I'm not trying to diss anybody's ideas--just that some of these have been discussed before with practical or philosophical issues blocking, and my hope with this discussion is to identify the blockers and ways to get around them.

    One thing worth noting: the absolute price of a Wings miniature hasn't changed appreciably from their introduction to now, even with materials costs ever hiher and the value of the US dollar sinking. I can get that they want to try to keep things as affordable as they can, and I'd be no more enthusiastic about it than any of us, but I could easily understand reasons why they might have needed to raise the MSRP a buck or two per plane--actually, the Recovering Business Major in me wonders more why they *haven't,* as maybe if they had they wouldn't be caught in the usual Cash Flow Squeezeplay that plagues "five-man band" enterprises.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-23-2016 at 23:58.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  43. #43

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    I can see your points and understand the investment issue. But in the end it is a game and we need parts to play it. I found the whole thread interesting and truely hope somethng comes out of it to promote the game. Whatever happens, needs to happen soon I am afraid. As for the 2 plane starter, does us no good if we can not get it anywhere. The fact that the entry level product is non existant greatly impacts the recruitment of newer players. But then I have only been into the game a month or so so should be considered a fanatical newbie. In time I will get a better handle on things (and e-bay the snot out of getting all I need).

  44. #44

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    Sadly, Sails lends itself more to a viable tournament format than WGF--IMO the high-water mark of Tourney Play was the Star Wars Minis and Axis & Allies organized-play programs, where each player got a unique-to-OP variant paintscheme of a "main set" figure, a map or tile and a scenario-card.

    Sails this could be done with a scenario card and a variant ship-log with new name and new stats... even WGS could be done--though how I can't discuss until Rob announces the coming WGS Series 1/2 reprints.

    I'm lucky to be in a position where I can usually snag an entire set at a time, but back in college I remember what it was like struggling to pry loose funding for one at a time, having shouting matches with the Old Crab over it even though SHE's the one who got me hooked--so maybe I overdo it at times, but I remember what it was like to be the struggling little guy and try to ensure they have at least one advocate to wield influence on their behalf. (I remember all too well from other games what it's like to be a rookie surrounded by I Got Mine So Screw You's...)
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  45. #45

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    I thought 'the duel set/ 4 plane basic set line up you could only get with those sets' was a result of Ares being quite smart - it gives a taster of the game to new pilots and provided those extra models to those old hands who had not been able to obtain the Nexus Revised Deluxe Set, and there were plenty of them.
    Someone new to the game could buy a duel set, get into the game, then buy the RAP & the other duel set - a two plane starter set might crimp this opportunity and be just as expensive.
    I cannot see any series being always available purely because a retailer is there to sell the product not store it on the shelf - if it is not flying off the shelf they won't want to stock it. The models that are hard to find are from sets released 4-7 years ago, all Nexus designs, one brought to us by Ares so no wonder new players are struggling to find them. Ares will rectify that in due course, perhaps they could speed that process up...?

    "He is wise who watches"

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Problem with that is, D2C sales channels piss off the retailers: "If they're gonna undercut us by selling direct, why should we buy their stuff and try to sell it?"

    Ares has already had enough problems on that front, a buddy had to close his shop because almost his entire business was built around Wings and Sails and their unreliable delivery schedules were wreaking havoc on keeping his other commitments. Me, I'd try to schedule it so a given type of release always fell about the same time in the year, plus or minus a week or two...

    Another fact we have to consider is that we're used to big heavy-hitters like FFG, WOTC and WizKids--Ares is a very small company that's generally been able to punch way above their weight class, which does hamstring them a bit.
    yeah my buddy dave has really scaled back his wings selection after that happened at origins 2014. he was also pissed that airplanes not available to him were available for sale at origins. frankly the only reason he still keeps any wings on his shelves is mainly to humor me and my my buddy rick (black knigget).

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    One quibble: NEVER Random--that way lies CMG tournament madness like [s]Munchkin[/s]MechWarrior. Fixed content if we're going to have planes, maybe two exclusives to that box. Makin people buy a new rulepack everytime they turn around just reeks of cash-grab, and I'm pretty sure that'll go over like a lead balloon since one of Andrea A.'s non-negotiables on licensing Wings to Ares was full forward and backward compatibility with the original Nexus releases.

    Trust me, a tournament scene like Mechwarrior or Magic with its nasty powergaming Munchkins is the LAST thing we want associated with the brand... in a niche like this, we need to *encourage* the rookies and *discourage* those who would stomp all over them.

    Anybody else who's actually BEEN a Tourney Scene Gamer care to chime in with your horror stories?
    it doesnt involve a tourny but i think it illustrates your point. at a distributor convention i went to with my buddy dave, they had a brief timed play event where you got to keep the magic packs you opened for play. dave wanted me to play to get him more magic cards. normally i dont touch card games with a 10 foot pole as the random nature of them really irritates me. anyway i was sitting there and an experienced guy comes over and asks if i want to play. "sure" i say but im new and youll have to explain it to me. so i tried my best but predictably i lost. i found out later that when he was explaining he left out some key info about a function that i couldve shut down what his deck was set up for and likely beaten him. he didnt bother to tell me this until after hed won. he seemed inordinately pleased that he managed to "beat" my deck with his deck even though his wasnt set up to win against mine (ive not seen such bravery).

    that seems to be a real problem with some magic players, theyre more than happy to take advantage of a newbie for a win even at the expense of driving someone away from the game. the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth, so much so i wont even play the game with friends whom i know wouldnt take advantage of my inexperience. ive noticed some real cutthroat players with a win at any cost mentality. luckily the dont frequent my buddies shop.
    Last edited by milcoll73; 05-24-2016 at 01:42.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Just to clarify...was not talking about the planes only being avalible in the box sets, just special paint jobs. You could still get Camels or Fokkers in the standard line up just not that particular paint job.

    Due to history I can see some issues with it only being avalible in boxes. Been building my collection nicely, even got a balloon box set in good condition...but.....there is this DH 2 issue. SO this gets the point accross that ALL plane types need to be avalible at ALL times to properly feed the need. Special paint jobs??...well...that can be done at a slower rate.
    i dont think ALL types need to be available at ALL times but there are certain key, iconic a/c that SHOULD ALWAYS be available as well as either RAPs or duel packs. i also think ares should release fewer planes but at a lesser, more steady interval. its daunting to a new player to be faced with the perceived necessity to acquire one large group of a/c all at one time.

  49. #49

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    Agreed! I think the classic Red Baron should always be available with a suitable opponent but I'd also like to see an early war duel pack such as DH.2 vs Fokker EIII that would provide a nice contrast to the late war planes.
    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    i dont think ALL types need to be available at ALL times but there are certain key, iconic a/c that SHOULD ALWAYS be available as well as either RAPs or duel packs. i also think ares should release fewer planes but at a lesser, more steady interval. its daunting to a new player to be faced with the perceived necessity to acquire one large group of a/c all at one time.

  50. #50

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    one other avenue ares could go for is storage and portage. not of the a/c as thats already well covered but of game components and maps. carrying the RAPs (for wgf, and wgs) is bulky and inefficient and the mats are just a pain.

    i solved my problem with a magic deck box carrying bag. its about the size of one of those old semi rigid cassette tape bags. with a little modification ive been able to cram all the components for both games along with extra maneuver and damage decks and a few accessories ive made myself but its packed to bursting. had a wings themed bag been available id have happily invested in it.

    as far as the maps ive pretty much had to make due. ive seen some nice side zip vinyl carry bags with handles that id like to get but have been unable to find any available for purchase separately from a mat. my solution for my 3 maps has been to tape the boxes together (in a staggered configuration so i can open them with ease) and use a couple canvas belts to make an ersatz shoulder strap. it works but is far from ideal. once again if a themed carry bag were available id happily invest.

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