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Thread: The Late War Campaign

  1. #301

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    Roger that.

    "He is wise who watches"

  2. #302

  3. #303

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    Following on from the December 2016 post I have updated the squadron scoreboards for the Bulldogs and Kaiser's Eagles as of 23 February 2017. The scores have been taken from Dave's campaign spreadsheets and list those pilots who have been credited with five or more victories. We have several new names, including three Entente 'OPFOR' pilots who made the cut this month!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 02-23-2017 at 17:19.

  4. #304

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    Thanks Carl.
    Looking good for the Dogs.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  5. #305

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    Carl, a couple of updates missed, for the Eagles Rolf Schafer is now at 7 kills and Bulldogs add in Ernest Page at 5 kills. These were achieved in Mission 8.

  6. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Carl, a couple of updates missed, for the Eagles Rolf Schafer is now at 7 kills and Bulldogs add in Ernest Page at 5 kills. These were achieved in Mission 8.
    Apologies Peter, boards have been updated. Your OPFOR Bulldogs squadron appears quite formidable!

  7. #307

    Thumbs up



    That's really great work Carl.
    Very deserving of Rep!

  8. #308

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    Also my Bulldog, David Rimmer, got his 5th and 6th last mission.
    Thanks for keeping up with this - looks great.

  9. #309

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Also my Bulldog, David Rimmer, got his 5th and 6th last mission.
    Thanks for keeping up with this - looks great.
    D'uh!! Fixed.

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    D'uh!! Fixed.
    Now that was fast!

    Thanks, Carl

  11. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Apologies Peter, boards have been updated. Your OPFOR Bulldogs squadron appears quite formidable!
    Looking good Carl.

    'My' Bulldogs would be much stronger if the last mission hadn't captured a pair of 4 kill pilots! Hopefully they can escape in the near futrue?

  12. #312

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    Nicely done Carl, unfortunately I drew a gun jam. I'll try to get you next time.

  13. #313

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    I have recently started taking the option of utilizing a single "B" gun instead of an automatic jam for my "A" machines.
    For the AI participants I roll for the option.


    Of course, when they get a second jam (in the very next phase with my luck!) the weapon is well and truly jammed.

    I have used this the last mission or two in The Bitter End.
    What do you think?

    Is is fair or should I stick with the standard rule that both guns are inoperable?
    It's getting a bit ridiculous with the number of jams lately.

    Dave: if this is the wrong place, please move it.


  14. #314

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    Is your GJ rule fair? That depends on who you are playing against.
    Me personally, I think GJ are a big part of the WoG experience. They are just as important to me as Boom cards and Pilot wound.
    The Central Powers during this period were losing the war because of forced labor, lack of proper materials, and harrasment of the supply lines by the Entente. This is where the Ace abilities of Dedicated Groundcrew and Bullet Checker come in handy. If you do not want to take either skill as an Ace ability then vwhose fault is it when your GJ.
    I personally won't be throwing out any GJ unless my pilots have the bullet checker ability.
    Once again is it fair? That is a matter of personal opinion. Mission 7, I ran 14 Entente and 16 CP planes. There were times as many as 8 planes were shooting at each other. I had to shuffle my damage decks twice once I got past the halfway point. So, you kept seeing GJ, Boom, Pilot Wound when they had already been drawn.
    Last edited by Setarius; 02-25-2017 at 17:14.

  15. #315

    Lightbulb

    I always play the Gun Jam as affecting both guns on all except the SE 5a which has two completely different guns. I revert to a B card & then wait for a suitable time to unjamb the other gun.

  16. #316

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    I do use the idea for machines with two separate gun systems like the SE5a or the up-gunned Nieuports but haven't used it on twin mounts yet. The idea has merit though, Andrea put this out on BGG as a 'house rule' years ago so I don't particularly object if you want to use it, or, something similar in OTT though if we do we should all use the same rule. Here's what Andrea said:

    "When you fire with an A weapon, that represents twin guns, you could jam one of the machineguns or, more rarely, both of them.
    If you are at short distance, you jam a machinegun if target picks up a Jammed Damage card, you jam both of them if he picks up two of them.
    Firing at long distance, you jam both of them if the target picks the 0 red jammed Damage card, only one if he picks the 2 red or a green jammed Damage card.
    Planes jamming a single gun take three jammed counters. Each turn after moving, the player can decide if to unjam the jammed machinegun or if they want to fire with the remaining one.
    If they unjam, they discard a token; if they fire they do it at B capability (and they normally jam this second weapon if a jamming B card is picked by the target).
    The weapon is unjammed if the player unjam it after three consecutive maneuvers. It is allowed to stop unjamming to fire with the other weapon at any moment, but the jamned counters are immediately restored to three.
    If both weapons are jammed, they are unjammed at the same time after the same three consecutive maneuvers. No separate account of unjamming is necessary."


    Looking at cockpit images I see that many have twin triggers for twin mounted guns which suggests it's possible.. ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #317

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    Are there any accounts of doing this? I haven't read any but have not looked for this specific thing.

  18. #318

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    There accounts written by serving airmen Pete, but I doubt i can put my finger on the right books.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  19. #319

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    In the recent Osprey Air Vanguard #5 Albatros D.I / D.II, it clearly states that the pilot could choose to fire both machine guns, or only one, using separate triggers.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  20. #320

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    Seems like a done deal Pete . I shall give this varient on gun jam a go next mission.


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  21. #321

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    Well then if this is the case I'll be trying out red is both jam, (if A firing) green one, less one for dedicated ground crew/bullet checker.
    I can also see clearing the jam(s) should be 3 cards for each gun.

  22. #322

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I can also see clearing the jam(s) should be 3 cards for each gun.
    Seems reasonable.
    If 3 turns for a "B" it should then be 3 + 3 for an "A", although Andrea says
    If both weapons are jammed, they are unjammed at the same time after the same three consecutive maneuvers. No separate account of unjamming is necessary
    I have been using the Nexus Gun Jam markers to indicate only one gun is jammed and the Ares for both.
    With the 3 + 3 for "A" I think I will only use this option when I am in a great position to shoot in the following phase.

  23. #323

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    With all the catch up games being posted at the moment it's hard to believe the next mission briefing is only a couple of days away. I look forward to seeing what Pete dishes up this time around.

  24. #324

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    With all the catch up games being posted at the moment it's hard to believe the next mission briefing is only a couple of days away. I look forward to seeing what Pete dishes up this time around.
    Me too!
    Just hope its not another Marathon just yet.

  25. #325

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    Been finalizing it off and on all day.
    I hope you guys will enjoy it.


    I will post it on Tuesday evening Pacific Standard Time.

  26. #326

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    It seems the Bulldogs got a handle on the last mission so it will be interesting to see what comes of the next one. Look forward to seeing what you have for us Pete, the table is cleared and ready for action !

    "He is wise who watches"

  27. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    In the recent Osprey Air Vanguard #5 Albatros D.I / D.II, it clearly states that the pilot could choose to fire both machine guns, or only one, using separate triggers.
    Thanks Tim, Looking at cockpit images you will see that there are twin triggers on most, if not all, aircraft with twin mounted guns that bears that out.

    We need to enshrine this in the rules somewhere if you chaps are keen to utilise this option so we will need to decide how to go about it. I'm not sure Andrea nailed it but he gave us a starting point. I have spaced it out to make it a little easier to get to grips with:

    "When you fire with an A weapon, that represents twin guns, you could jam one of the machineguns or, more rarely, both of them.

    If you are at short distance, you jam a machinegun if target picks up a Jammed Damage card, you jam both of them if he picks up two of them.

    Firing at long distance, you jam both of them if the target picks the 0 red jammed Damage card, only one if he picks the 2 red or a green jammed Damage card.

    Planes jamming a single gun take three jammed counters.

    Each turn after moving, the player can decide if to unjam the jammed machinegun or if they want to fire with the remaining one.

    If they unjam, they discard a token; if they fire they do it at B capability (and they normally jam this second weapon if a jamming B card is picked by the target).

    The weapon is unjammed if the player unjam it after three consecutive maneuvers.

    It is allowed to stop unjamming to fire with the other weapon at any moment, but the jamned counters are immediately restored to three.

    If both weapons are jammed, they are unjammed at the same time after the same three consecutive maneuvers. No separate account of unjamming is necessary."

    When I get a moment later I will pull something together for us to think on.
    Last edited by flash; 02-28-2017 at 00:54.

    "He is wise who watches"

  28. #328

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    Been finalizing it off and on all day.
    I hope you guys will enjoy it.


    I will post it on Tuesday evening Pacific Standard Time.
    Looking forward to it Pete - and praying mine (up next after you) is sufficiently different not to have to re-write it

    Re all the GJ discussion - there are a lot of great ideas out there. Personally I would like it if we had some kind of definitive answer/ ruling to go on, but at the end of the day I don't suppose it makes a big difference, does it?

  29. #329

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    That's what we're aiming to do Mike, if we all play the same optional rule it helps understanding of the AAR and prevents a lot of unnecessary questions.

    "He is wise who watches"

  30. #330

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    It looks like there's:
    1 x 0 Red GJ & 1 x 0 Green GJ and 1 x 2 Red & 1 x 2 Green GJ in an A deck.
    2x 0 Red GJ & 2 x 0 Green GJ and 1 x 2 Red & 1 x 2 Green GJ in a B deck

    Looking at what Andrea put out I think it will serve pretty well:
    ˇ At short range you jam one gun on any jam damage card;
    ˇ At long range you jam one gun on any jam except a 0 Red GJ in which case BOTH guns are jammed.
    ˇ After each manoeuvre a player can decide to clear the jammed gun, or, fire the remaining gun.
    ˇ If they choose to clear, they discard a jam token; if they choose to fire they use the B deck (& that gun is subject to jamming)
    ˇ It is allowed to stop clearing a gun to fire with the other weapon in any phase, but the jammed counters are immediately restored to three.
    ˇ If both weapons are jammed, they are cleared at the same time after three consecutive manoeuvres. No separate account of clearing each weapon is necessary. Though I'd suggest they are cleared when the second gun has has removed its third token.

    Will this suffice, or, would the users like something different ?
    I suppose 0 Red GJ at short or long range jams both guns may make life simpler ? That's a 1 in 35 chance for A deck, 1 in 22 for the B deck (if mounting a pair). You could go with any 0 GJ - red or green - jams both guns ?
    That gives an ace with the dedicated crewman skills another advantage.
    If you go the route of just Red jams jam both guns then the dedicated crewman skills would mean that that ace can only ever jam both guns, which doesn't seem fair !
    Let me have your thoughts.

    "He is wise who watches"

  31. #331

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    No thanks Dave. I prefer to keep things as is in this game.
    With a total of 4 gun jams in the "A` deck and 6 in the "B" deck, I do not think that is an overly excessive amount of jams per deck. Yes the A deck is larger than the B deck and therefore your chance of drawing a B jam is greater, but we currently are in the late war stages of this conflict, so the question is really how many planes will be using the B deck from this point forward?
    I used two "A" and 2 "B" damage decks when playing and have a third if needed, which increases the number of jams available but not the percentage chance of drawing one.
    If by some fluke you draw all the gun jams on your first turn, that means you won't have to worry about any more until you reshuffle. And if your pilot draws a gun jam after he clears the last one, then it is not his lucky day.
    I do not need my "games" to mirror real life to enjoy them, I just need to have fun playing them. And I do not see how complicating the gun jam rule helps. Yes, I said complicating it by saying, your guns jam if situation A occurs, but not situation B, and only C will happen if....

  32. #332

    Smile

    Yeah I am actually with Dale on this.
    Why make our games more Complicated.
    I can live with: "If you get a Jamb Card both Twin Guns are jammed except in the case of the SE 5a"
    Ace abilities of course still have their effect.

    Any alteration only makes keeping track especially in Solo games more difficult
    (Or is this only an indication of my advancing years?)

  33. #333

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    There is already a lot to try to remember in the solo campaign rules. As there are optional rules partial jams could be optional? I think having range effect type of jam does not make sense.(to me anyway) Also its adding in one more variable to forget.

    If it is optional I like red jams all guns, green jams one, less one or two for dedicated ground crew/bullet checker ace skills 1 & 2.

    If it is optional I'll probably forget anyway and use the original rule!

  34. #334

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    I was going to propose we make it Optional, like the limited ammo and a few others.
    I do like Teaticket's KISS method if we do allow this to be an option and not worry about whether it is short or long range.

    If it is optional I like red jams all guns, green jams one, less one or two for dedicated ground crew/bullet checker ace skills 1 & 2.

  35. #335

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    Firstly and most importantly - It was only ever going to be optional..... I would not impose anything like this on anyone !

    Secondly, and a little less importantly, if people do want to use it then we should all use the same optional rule then everyone understands how it works.

    Thirdly, I'm all for making it simple, hence the discussion.

    Now, getting on with it, I couldn't figure the range thing out either ! I would propose that (as well as two scoring GJ in a phase) both guns jam in twin mounted guns on any 0 GJ - ie 0 Red or 0 Green - at any range.
    This allows Dedicated Ground Crew ace skill to have another function with this optional rule ie no double jam on 0 Green. (If you only jam both on a Red GJ then those with this particular skill will only ever double GJ !)

    So we'd see something like this as an optional rule:
    ˇ At any range you jam one gun on any jam except a 0 Red GJ or a 0 Green GJ in which case BOTH guns are jammed.
    ˇ Both guns of a twin mount are jammed if two scoring GJ are received in a single phase.
    ˇ After each manoeuvre a player can decide to clear the jammed gun, or, fire the remaining gun.
    ˇ If they choose to clear, they discard a jam token; if they choose to fire they use the B deck (& that gun is subject to jamming)
    ˇ It is allowed to stop clearing a gun to fire with the other weapon in any phase, but the jammed counters are immediately restored to three.
    ˇ If both weapons are jammed, they are cleared at the same time after three consecutive manoeuvres. No separate account of clearing each weapon is necessary.

    "He is wise who watches"

  36. #336

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    Hi Zio.
    Will you do me the honours re casualties for mission eight please. I can then see who is available for escort duty in mission 9.

    Roberto.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  37. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    So we'd see something like this as an optional rule:
    ˇ At any range you jam one gun on any jam except a 0 Red GJ or a 0 Green GJ in which case BOTH guns are jammed.
    ˇ Both guns of a twin mount are jammed if two scoring GJ are received
    ˇ If both weapons are jammed, they are cleared at the same time after three consecutive manoeuvres. No separate account of clearing each weapon is necessary.

    If you can jam each gun separately then why can you unjam both at the same time? If they are fired with 2 separate mechanisms that are synchronized, yet separate, does it not make sense that you would have to unjam them separately?
    You can't grab 2 handles at the same time with one hand if they are more than a hands width apart. You can only hammer one mechanism at a time with one hammer. And if you are using both hands to unjam the pilot's gun, who is flying the plane? I can see an observer with a twin mount doing two handles at the same time provided he is strapped into his plane.
    So, I guess what I am saying is to clear both barrels the pilot should have to do one at a time and take 3 consecutive turns for each barrel.

  38. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Hi Zio.
    Will you do me the honours re casualties for mission eight please. I can then see who is available for escort duty in mission 9.

    Roberto.
    Done Roberto !

    "He is wise who watches"

  39. #339

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    Quote Originally Posted by Setarius View Post
    If you can jam each gun separately then why can you unjam both at the same time? If they are fired with 2 separate mechanisms that are synchronized, yet separate, does it not make sense that you would have to unjam them separately? ....
    The standard rules are a twin or a single gun take 3 moves to clear so this is just following Andrea's lead - perhaps he didn't want people out with long time jams ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Setarius View Post
    .....So, I guess what I am saying is to clear both barrels the pilot should have to do one at a time and take 3 consecutive turns for each barrel.
    Clearly, but as it already equally applies to the standard rules do you want to change them too ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  40. #340

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Done Roberto !
    Mille grazie Zio.

    Roberto.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  41. #341

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    Dave, as you said you are thinking of making this an optional rule. I think I personally will stick with the original rule as written, for symplicity sake.
    Thanks for the discussion.

  42. #342

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The standard rules are a twin or a single gun take 3 moves to clear so this is just following Andrea's lead - perhaps he didn't want people out with long time jams ?



    Clearly, but as it already equally applies to the standard rules do you want to change them too ?
    I prefer to apply the old but good KISS principle!

  43. #343

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    Dave I am good with your suggested Options
    I use the old Nexus gun jam markers to indicate a single gun and the Ares to indicate both are jammed.


    Thanks for taking this on after I opened up the can of worms.

  44. #344

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    Let me know how you get on with it Pete, you might be the only one trying it !

    "He is wise who watches"

  45. #345

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    I think I will go with separate unjamming to be fair.
    3 for each gun as suggested earlier in this thread.
    I will try this out in my "Little Lambs" mission - hopefully today or tomorrow.

  46. #346

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I think I will go with separate unjamming to be fair.
    3 for each gun as suggested earlier in this thread.
    I will try this out in my "Little Lambs" mission - hopefully today or tomorrow.
    I agree with the unjamming for each gun being a seperate action. If jamming becomes more difficult to happen then to unjam should also. I'll try it this way but I don't think I'll be able to give it a go till the end of the month.

  47. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by Setarius View Post
    If you can jam each gun separately then why can you unjam both at the same time? If they are fired with 2 separate mechanisms that are synchronized, yet separate, does it not make sense that you would have to unjam them separately?
    You can't grab 2 handles at the same time with one hand if they are more than a hands width apart. You can only hammer one mechanism at a time with one hammer. And if you are using both hands to unjam the pilot's gun, who is flying the plane? I can see an observer with a twin mount doing two handles at the same time provided he is strapped into his plane.
    So, I guess what I am saying is to clear both barrels the pilot should have to do one at a time and take 3 consecutive turns for each barrel.
    Just to add another level of complexity Albatros aircraft had the ability to lock the flight yoke, allowing the pilot to use both hands to clear his guns. Perhaps for those aircraft the pilot could clear two jammed guns in three moves but has to fly straight.

  48. #348

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Just to add another level of complexity Albatros aircraft had the ability to lock the flight yoke, allowing the pilot to use both hands to clear his guns. Perhaps for those aircraft the pilot could clear two jammed guns in three moves but has to fly straight.
    We could be opening a bigger can of worms here. Think about all the other planes with quirks. Was it the RE8 or DH4 that has controls in the rear position so the observer/gunner could fly the plane if the pilot was incapcitated? Do we add in a special rule for this? Pretty soon we will have a dictionary for plane characteristics. This could take quite some time to compile. Great for those who want a more realistic game but it will take away from the original simplicity that drew us in.

    I like the thought of the different plane characteristics. I would think we will need a place to list these so they are easily available.

  49. #349

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    We could be opening a bigger can of worms here. Think about all the other planes with quirks. Was it the RE8 or DH4 that has controls in the rear position so the observer/gunner could fly the plane if the pilot was incapcitated? Do we add in a special rule for this? Pretty soon we will have a dictionary for plane characteristics. This could take quite some time to compile. Great for those who want a more realistic game but it will take away from the original simplicity that drew us in.

    I like the thought of the different plane characteristics. I would think we will need a place to list these so they are easily available.
    As I said in a previous post.
    We are doing this for enjoyment & fun chaps so I firmly believe in the KISS principle!

  50. #350

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    Agreed, Barry.

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