WGF Night Fighting

[Franco Lucchini]

Have a couple F2.Bs with the night version RAF roundel (i.e. no white circle). Naturally, that means I will have to eventually get a Zeppelin Staaken for an evening bombing raid.

Any different rules (official or house) for WGF night fighting. Perhaps reduced shooting range, reduced shooting effectiveness, or spot lights?

I only have the duel pack rules at the moment. The full WGF box set is inbound. Perhaps there are some night apecial rules in there?

Thanks in advance.

[Teaticket]

Don't forget bombing raids with Gothas and Staakens and what have you went to night raids too.

No night rules in the official rules. I think Sven came up with some night rules for WW2 Lancaster raids into Germany. Maybe they can be ported to WGF?

[Marechallannes]

Actually we have no night figtht rules for WGF & WGS, except the "Schräge Musik" rules for some axis heavy fighters.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...es-in-pictures

My WGS night fight system relies on radar installations on the ground and in the nightfighters that reports the position of located RAF heavies to the Luftwaffe night fighters. So you don't have to search your targets, but they appear by random on the battlefiled.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...aid-March-1944



Back to WGF:



Upcoming comic fighters need some rules for engagement because of their ability to fire their armament upwards while overlapping with the target's base, so the should use "Schräge Musik" too, without getting return fire.

I have this F2.B night fighter and thought about special WGF scenarios.

Problems:

• No radar
• To search some hidden German intruders on the gaming area can be boring
• What to do if you detect them? ("Hey comrades I found it. It's fast, it's hughe, oh my God - it's a Staakenaaarrggghhhh.....")
• If you reduce the max. range of fire, you will get problems to score enough hits.
• In contrast to a loaded Avro Lancaster, there are no high-flamable payloads for a Staaken/Gotha to raise the chances to shoot it down with a critical hit.
• etc.

So at them moment the only option seems to be a clear moon night, when a group of RFC home defense units spot the giant and try to shoot it down before it reaches the end of the map.

Maybe WGF series 9 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter (Two Seater / Comic Fighter) have some rules inside the miniature packs with some additional WGF night fight rules.



I have to think about it, maybe we can discuss WGF night fight options at Prague Summer Con.

A special problem I have: No literature in German about WWI night bombing...

[Nightbomber]

I have found official nightfighting rules of A&A: Angels20/Bandits High quite reasonable, expandable and easy to use.
Anybody tried them?

[Teaticket]

I have found official nightfighting rules of A&A: Angels20/Bandits High quite reasonable, expandable and easy to use.
Anybody tried them?

I just got a copy of these and will look into them next week. Hopefully it will be easily ported to WGF.

[Marechallannes]

Hmmm...

Nothing special.

Some distraction of firepower and rules to determine if the plane is iluminated by spotlights.

That's something I do not know: Had London some (useful) spotlight batteries in WW I?

[flash]

..That's something I do not know: Had London some (useful) spotlight batteries in WW I?

Imagery from the period does suggest they did...









At the start of the First World War, searchlight units were deployed to the south coast and the banks of the Thames estuary, where they were deployed to form light barriers, just as they had done in the Boer War. Britain at this time had very little in the way of anti aircraft guns or searchlights but with support from the admiralty a month into the war 33 guns were in use but without any searchlights. London was only defended by only four 1-pounder Pom-Pom,s on the roofs of the Foreign Office, the Admiralty, the Crown Agent’s and in the Woolwich Arsenal.

The first Zeppelin raid on London was on 31st May 1915. The Air Defences of London had now grown to 12 Anti Aircraft Guns and 12 acetylene gas powered searchlights manned by 120 special constables, but it was still not enough. In this early stage of the War the co-ordination of Anti Aircraft Guns and Searchlights was poor and this showed in the lack of results, but if they guns not been doing well, night-fighters had even less success. It was clear that the Air Defence of Britain was in need of an overhaul.
***
In 1916 the War Office took over responsibility for all anti-aircraft defences and a new strategy was developed which included a searchlight belt 25 miles wide stretching from Northumberland to Sussex (Fig 4). Each searchlight company was controlled directly by the commander of the air squadron whose aircraft patrolled over that sector.

The benefits of such tactics soon became apparent when the first Zeppelin, L15, was shot down over Purfleet after first being illuminated by searchlights based in Woolwich. Searchlight units soon became adept at picking up Zeppelins, and although the raids continued, airships were frequently turned back by anti-aircraft fire. By 1st October 1916, the Zeppelin threat had all but ended and the Germans attentions turned to use of the bomber.
***
On 11th November 1918, Armistice Day, the Air Defence of Great Britain had a total of 469 guns and 622 searchlights. By 1920, only two years later, the strength of AA Defence in Great Britain had dropped to one brigade of 32 guns and one battalion of 48 searchlights.


Exerpts from: ROYAL ARTILLERY HISTORICAL SOCIETY Winter Meeting, Wednesday 17th January 2007, at Larkhill
A Presentation by Mr Keith Brigstock of ROYAL ARTILLERY SEARCHLIGHTS.

Doc came up on Google when I searched 'search lights ww1'

[Franco Lucchini]

Actually we have no night figtht rules for WGF & WGS, except the "Schräge Musik" rules for some axis heavy fighters.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...es-in-pictures

My WGS night fight system relies on radar installations on the ground and in the nightfighters that reports the position of located RAF heavies to the Luftwaffe night fighters. So you don't have to search your targets, but they appear by random on the battlefiled.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...aid-March-1944



Back to WGF:



Upcoming comic fighters need some rules for engagement because of their ability to fire their armament upwards while overlapping with the target's base, so the should use "Schräge Musik" too, without getting return fire.

I have this F2.B night fighter and thought about special WGF scenarios.

Problems:

• No radar
• To search some hidden German intruders on the gaming area can be boring
• What to do if you detect them? ("Hey comrades I found it. It's fast, it's hughe, oh my God - it's a Staakenaaarrggghhhh.....")
• If you reduce the max. range of fire, you will get problems to score enough hits.
• In contrast to a loaded Avro Lancaster, there are no high-flamable payloads for a Staaken/Gotha to raise the chances to shoot it down with a critical hit.
• etc.

So at them moment the only option seems to be a clear moon night, when a group of RFC home defense units spot the giant and try to shoot it down before it reaches the end of the map.

Maybe WGF series 9 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter (Two Seater / Comic Fighter) have some rules inside the miniature packs with some additional WGF night fight rules.



I have to think about it, maybe we can discuss WGF night fight options at Prague Summer Con.

A special problem I have: No literature in German about WWI night bombing...

Saw your post on "Schräge Musik". Nicely done Sven!

We've done random appearance of ground targets, but not of enemy aircraft. Great idea! Hmmm...

[Franco Lucchini]

I have found official nightfighting rules of A&A: Angels20/Bandits High quite reasonable, expandable and easy to use.
Anybody tried them?

Hmmm...

Nothing special.

Some distraction of firepower and rules to determine if the plane is iluminated by spotlights.

That's something I do not know: Had London some (useful) spotlight batteries in WW I?

Thanks for pointing me there Andy. Played tones of Angels 20, but never tried the special conditions.

So, treat it like overdiving where the opponent gets to ignore one damage chit? Nothing special, but would make taking down a night target more frustrating.

Like the table for rolling illumination success.

[Franco Lucchini]

Imagery from the period does suggest they did...









At the start of the First World War, searchlight units were deployed to the south coast and the banks of the Thames estuary, where they were deployed to form light barriers, just as they had done in the Boer War. Britain at this time had very little in the way of anti aircraft guns or searchlights but with support from the admiralty a month into the war 33 guns were in use but without any searchlights. London was only defended by only four 1-pounder Pom-Pom,s on the roofs of the Foreign Office, the Admiralty, the Crown Agent’s and in the Woolwich Arsenal.

The first Zeppelin raid on London was on 31st May 1915. The Air Defences of London had now grown to 12 Anti Aircraft Guns and 12 acetylene gas powered searchlights manned by 120 special constables, but it was still not enough. In this early stage of the War the co-ordination of Anti Aircraft Guns and Searchlights was poor and this showed in the lack of results, but if they guns not been doing well, night-fighters had even less success. It was clear that the Air Defence of Britain was in need of an overhaul.
***
In 1916 the War Office took over responsibility for all anti-aircraft defences and a new strategy was developed which included a searchlight belt 25 miles wide stretching from Northumberland to Sussex (Fig 4). Each searchlight company was controlled directly by the commander of the air squadron whose aircraft patrolled over that sector.

The benefits of such tactics soon became apparent when the first Zeppelin, L15, was shot down over Purfleet after first being illuminated by searchlights based in Woolwich. Searchlight units soon became adept at picking up Zeppelins, and although the raids continued, airships were frequently turned back by anti-aircraft fire. By 1st October 1916, the Zeppelin threat had all but ended and the Germans attentions turned to use of the bomber.
***
On 11th November 1918, Armistice Day, the Air Defence of Great Britain had a total of 469 guns and 622 searchlights. By 1920, only two years later, the strength of AA Defence in Great Britain had dropped to one brigade of 32 guns and one battalion of 48 searchlights.


Exerpts from: ROYAL ARTILLERY HISTORICAL SOCIETY Winter Meeting, Wednesday 17th January 2007, at Larkhill
A Presentation by Mr Keith Brigstock of ROYAL ARTILLERY SEARCHLIGHTS.

Doc came up on Google when I searched 'search lights ww1'

Great find Dave!

Wonder if the searchlights were ever the direct target of bombing raids?

[Marechallannes]

Nearly impossible to hit a tiny target that precise "at daylight", Allan.

...and search light batteries were normally placed peripheral.



Thank you Dave for your informations about London's defense in the Great War.

[Marechallannes]

I found something:

[Zoe Brain]

The problems with WWI Night bombing rules....
There aren't any radios. So you take off into the dark, and if you find a baddy, you're on your own. Unless flying in formation, but that reduces your chance of detecting a target markedly.

Typically, a "Battle of Britain Mk I" scenario would match one Gotha or R.VI vs a single Camel, SE5, F2B, DH4, Strutter, or if using unofficial aircraft, FE2, Pup, BE2 (VERY common). Actions in France usually involved pairs of Nieuports (N11s or N17s, 23s, 24s etc), or Camels, all with 2 overwing Lewis (to avoid flash blindness) vs Gothas, Giants, or if using unoffical aircraft, G.IVs, Fried G.IIIs, N.Is etc. The pair should be 2 ruler lengths apart, and at 2 alt levels difference.

Over Germany, one O/400 or if using unofficial aircraft, an FE2b or d, or Voisin 8 or 10 vs a single Albatros D.III or D.Va.

Why a BE2? Because it was so stable, and safe to fly at night. Slow, couldn't climb worth a damn, but you don't get a 20% casualty rate from merely attempting a night landing.

[Franco Lucchini]

Nearly impossible to hit a tiny target that precise "at daylight", Allan.

...and search light batteries were normally placed peripheral.



Thank you Dave for your informations about London's defense in the Great War.

Thanks Sven, hadn't thought about that. Probably don't want to be low altitude bombing at night.

[Franco Lucchini]

So, if we're playing WWI night bombing missions, it is presumed that they are illuminated from a spotlight?

Or, could you detect an aircraft from engine sound? If so, would they just throw CAP sorties up? Or, are the engines so loud from a Gotha or Staaken at high altitude to be heard from the ground?

Thanks for the help and thoughts. Working through some scenarios in my head.

[Jager]

You can hear aircraft engines from the ground; in fact, they had listening devices that were used much like radar (and were still used in WW2).
see acoustic location:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_location
In the air, your own engines drowned out the other fellow, as would the wind of your passage.
You tried to see the intruder by moonlight or if they were illuminated by searchlights. You might also see the flames of his engine exhausts; dampeners created drag.
Karl

[Franco Lucchini]

You can hear aircraft engines from the ground; in fact, they had listening devices that were used much like radar (and were still used in WW2).
see acoustic location:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_location
In the air, your own engines drowned out the other fellow, as would the wind of your passage.
You tried to see the intruder by moonlight or if they were illuminated by searchlights. You might also see the flames of his engine exhausts; dampeners created drag.
Karl

Great find Karl. Thanks for making me smarter.

[Naharaht]

The French had an acoustic aircraft detector in 1915. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...r_WW1_1915.jpg