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Thread: TANKS! Anyone?

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    This sounds about right. Turretless assault guns and tank destroyers were only effective where an opponent had to come down a single approach path; this is part of why US TDs were based on turreted designs (the experience with the M3 had shown the ineffectiveness of hull guns on tanks and TDs). Shermans with 76mm guns (either the US model, or the British 17-lb. on the "Firefly") were effective against anything short of a King Tiger or similar.
    I really don't know how you came out with this wild idea.
    The turretless tanks were so effective when you compare production cost vs. effectiveness that both Russians and Germans used them widely and with great success.
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=165781&d=1432790517

    Fly high. Check! Sun in the back. Check! Watch your six. Check! Draw good damage cards. #$&%!![/SIGPIC]

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    I really don't know how you came out with this wild idea.
    The turretless tanks were so effective when you compare production cost vs. effectiveness that both Russians and Germans used them widely and with great success.
    It isn't a wild idea; SPs had their place, and did cost less than tanks, as will as (usually) carrying a heavier gun. But even with the cost differences, tank were a better weapon overall. Otherwise, that would be all we have now
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    It isn't a wild idea; SPs had their place, and did cost less than tanks, as will as (usually) carrying a heavier gun. But even with the cost differences, tank were a better weapon overall. Otherwise, that would be all we have now
    Karl
    Even today, in a protracted war, many nations would trade in the expensive turreted tanks for the SP's. The USA didn't use them because it's production lines were never hard pressed as the Soviet and German were. The UK is a special case, coming from a different mindset about tanks.
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=165781&d=1432790517

    Fly high. Check! Sun in the back. Check! Watch your six. Check! Draw good damage cards. #$&%!![/SIGPIC]

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    Even today, in a protracted war, many nations would trade in the expensive turreted tanks for the SP's. The USA didn't use them because it's production lines were never hard pressed as the Soviet and German were. The UK is a special case, coming from a different mindset about tanks.
    While necessity might cause countries to resort to SPs, that doesn't make them better than tanks. The Germans initially used obsolete tank chassis for their SPs. Later, the need for any armored vehicles, as well as their defensive posture, saw an increased useage of SPs. In all cases, SPs were either used as infantry support (the initial STuG SPs) or to take advantage of the larger gun they could carry vs. the current tank. Often both.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  5. #105

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    So you either use them to declare a no-go zone, or buy them a card that increases their initiative.

    Karl[/QUOTE]




    kind of difficult when your on the attack. however thats what we tried to do with the 2 pnz IVs. position the stug in a likely spot and heard them into it. it didnt work as, even at moderate range (on the table we were using) the m4s could still scoot out of its arc. we were playing without cards to learn the mechanics.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    While necessity might cause countries to resort to SPs, that doesn't make them better than tanks. The Germans initially used obsolete tank chassis for their SPs. Later, the need for any armored vehicles, as well as their defensive posture, saw an increased useage of SPs. In all cases, SPs were either used as infantry support (the initial STuG SPs) or to take advantage of the larger gun they could carry vs. the current tank. Often both.
    Karl
    What is the real definition of better in a real environment?
    Was the Panther G better than the T-34/85?
    Facing one to one on perfect conditions, yes it was.
    But in real conditions it was more prone to mechanical failures, you could build 3 T-34's with the same man-hours and with lesser complex tools and resources.

    So off course turrets makes a tank better if you can swivel them.
    But let be honest, it was the numbers and air support that won the war in the West against the German tanks, not the tanks themselves.
    And the Soviets made a good use of many SP's.

    Modern times saw the end of SP for several reasons:
    Tank turrets can now easily accommodate the biggest weapons and the maximum size of workable caliber was achieved.
    Better types of lighter armor allow less tonnage and the role of tanks changed drastically. Air power completely dominates a battlefield.
    Wars are more surgical and the main occupation of a tank is to maintain pacification.
    And in peacetime you build tanks not tank destroyers.

    I'm not saying that you are wrong. A tank with a rotating turret is better than a tank with a fixed gun.
    What I am saying is that from up here is easy to be wise regarding down there.
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=165781&d=1432790517

    Fly high. Check! Sun in the back. Check! Watch your six. Check! Draw good damage cards. #$&%!![/SIGPIC]

  7. #107

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    Well two weeks until Historicon so I will get to see these in person. More than likely a new buy.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    What is the real definition of better in a real environment?
    Was the Panther G better than the T-34/85?
    Facing one to one on perfect conditions, yes it was.
    But in real conditions it was more prone to mechanical failures, you could build 3 T-34's with the same man-hours and with lesser complex tools and resources.

    So off course turrets makes a tank better if you can swivel them.
    But let be honest, it was the numbers and air support that won the war in the West against the German tanks, not the tanks themselves.
    And the Soviets made a good use of many SP's.

    Modern times saw the end of SP for several reasons:
    Tank turrets can now easily accommodate the biggest weapons and the maximum size of workable caliber was achieved.
    Better types of lighter armor allow less tonnage and the role of tanks changed drastically. Air power completely dominates a battlefield.
    Wars are more surgical and the main occupation of a tank is to maintain pacification.
    And in peacetime you build tanks not tank destroyers.

    I'm not saying that you are wrong. A tank with a rotating turret is better than a tank with a fixed gun.
    What I am saying is that from up here is easy to be wise regarding down there.
    I'm afraid we are just going to have to disagree; have a drink
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  9. #109

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    I just received my starter set. Can't wait to get stuck in. I've already made up my Tiger I. I'm also waiting on my Flames of War box set to arrive along with some books and aircraft.

    I hear that Phil Yates (creator of Flames of War) is designing a WW2 dogfighting game called 'Flames in the skies'.

    Really looking forward to diving into Flames and seeing how it runs on the table.

  10. #110

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    IIRC, the crews of the open-topped Allied TDs were not happy being unprotected. In close quarters, or if attacked from the air (not normally an issue with allied air superiority), the turreted TDs were very vulnerable.

    Perhaps the game rules don't take into consideration the side-to-side arc of the main gun, or that very experienced SP drivers would swivel the position of the tank to widen that arc. The Swedish S-Tank (modern, but the operational principles would be the same) was used as a main battle tank, and those crews were trained to use the maneuverability of the tank to shoot.
    Also, if the TD was positioned correctly, there wasn't any where for the enemy tanks to go, to get out of the firing arc.
    In a defensive position, if a SP or AT gun opened up, the target would be destroyed, and the other 'targets' wouldn't instantly know where the shot came from.
    On a gaming table, everyone has a very good view of everything, including enemy tanks in blinds and concealed positions. Crews in buttoned-up AFVs couldn't see all over the place, and avoid hidden enemies.

    Lots of artificiality in a tabletop game. I once played a game where observation rules were rigidly enforced. If you didn't make your observation rolls, the figures weren't put on the table. I lost almost my entire unit of tanks before I 'saw' the unit shooting me up.

    Also, the referee allowed subterfuge, which saved a disabled tank from destruction while shooting back at an enemy position. The commander of the enemy unit was firing at dead, unburning tanks, while I fired away from my immobilized tank (the tank crew had thrown a smoke grenade onto the engine deck to make it look like it had been knocked out). Frustrating. Sometimes realistic, sometimes not. But, it emulated the lack of visibility more-so than the above-table view that gamers have.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  11. #111

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    Yes there isn't much fog of war but its all still great fun none the less. My open fire starter set should arrive in a few weeks. Comes with Panzergrenadiers supported by Panzers & artillery and US Paratroopers supported by British Tanks. I'm also going to get into the Pacific aswell. Ordered the Gung-Ho and Banzai books and will go through them before deciding what Japanese and US Marines forces to buy. Might get a beach landing mat aswell so can be uaed in both Pacific and D-Day battles.

    I work just around the corner from Battlefront Miniatures HQ. Great company with excellent product.

  12. #112

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    Looking at this today and see the talk about SP and Tanks. Don't forget that Michael Whitmann was in a StugIII on the Eastern front where he became a tank ace. And look how bad the elephant was at Kursk. They had an elephant at Aberdeen PG that was captured at Anzio. It was abandoned because it couldn't move. I saw a show where they were restoring it to working condition and they found out that a 37mm round hit it in just the right spot to freeze the drive sprocket. I saw the TANKS game at Historicon and the tanks are the plastic Flames of War tanks that are used in that game. easy to build and play with. Where was all this stuff when I was using 1/72 models to do WWII battles ?

  13. #113

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    Here are pics of a US M18 TD and the Swedish S Tank. Last year they had the M-10/M-18 and M-36 out together. Don't know why I missed that picture but will get it this Sept when they have their show.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    M-18

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Swedish S Tank. You can see the other S tank just on the edge of the picture.

  14. #114

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Perhaps the game rules don't take into consideration the side-to-side arc of the main gun, or that very experienced SP drivers would swivel the position of the tank to widen that arc.
    This is a misconception from an earlier poster misinterpreting the rules. In TANKS! SPGs can fire at any vehicle which is at a tangent to their front (you draw a line across the front of vehicle and anything in front of that is a viable target). So if anything the game overstates the firing arc of these vehicles but does take into account their ability to traverse the gun from side to side & presumably also move the vehicle so the target comes into arc. The narrow lane in front of the SPG in the rules only applies when the target is partially beyond the 90 tangent line to the vehicle.

    It's a fun game and a good intro to more complicated combined arms wargaming. It's positive is its attraction to younger gamers combining (easy) modelling with fast & fun gameplay. The downside is that it's really got very little to do with armoured warfare in WWII beyond being called TANKS! The movement system while impressively easy to implement doesn't represent anything like the manner in which a tank moves. Other problems include some questionable decisions regarding relative firepower of vehicles (the US 76mm M1 gun is materially overpowered relative to its historic capabilities). So quite a fun game to play but not one that I found satisfying beyond a couple of beer fuelled games.

    Tom

  16. #116

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    Yes its more Flames of War that I am excited about. Very interested to see how Flames in the Skies plays out and how it compares to Wings of Glory. Its at 1/144 scale so could be a good official way for the 1/144 scale gamers to get involved. I think it will be a while before anything is officially released after having only just released the 4th edition of Flames of War. I will post some pics on this thread when I get started. Just waiting for my brushes to arrive so will study Colours of War painting guide I just purchased then get stuck in.

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