Sponsor Support

**bumblie3** · 10-21-2010 11:54

As far as the site sponsor thing is concerned, I quite understand why the Col has chosen this route, but I must admit I considered vacating the site when it was announced, since, effectively, it means the site has gone from being a neutral resource to backing a single retailer (who is not even a practical option for many members, particularly those outside the USA. For example, if I want to buy just two miniatures, the price per item is good, but the postage is over $40!! Obvious boxed sets are not, if they are not being mailed inland. going to be mailed for free, either.)

This coupled with the ruling that we cannot list reliable retailers if they are not Sponsors, seems overkill, if the retailers are only relevant to . a flight outside the USA. I feel that we should be able to compile a list of (for example) UK traders that we can refer fellow flight members to, when they need help, with a list of useful and trusted links, as we used to. I am sure many members found this invaluable.

So I have a sponsor I am unlikely to ever use, and I can't just refer to threads to find links to dealers a lot more local to me. I think I have lost a particularly useful service, by the ruling.

This is aside from the side issue of now having a commercial income based on a trader's profit, which all seems less than satisfactory to me.

Am I the only one to feel like this, or do others agree? If I am a lone voice I will shut up.

John

**LeBru** · 10-21-2010 14:09

Where are the rules you refer to concerning retailer links/lists?

I had asked about this some time ago not wanting to step on any toes, but I don't think I got a response to that specific question.

Keeping in mind that I haven't actually seen the rule, I guess I can see what you're saying regarding retailers outside the US (or inside for that matter) but at the same time this is a great resource that's free for us to use and the bills do somehow need to be paid. On top of that, the only sponsor that I've seen ads from is CoolStuffInc which is the company that I usually order WoW stuff from. In my experience they have reasonable prices and good customer service, so I'm pretty comfortable with it being a site sponsor. So long as the ads are relevant and not, say, pushing some off-putting political agenda, I won't be getting too worked up over it.

**tuladin** · 10-21-2010 14:39

The rule is posted here:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/ann....php?f=16&a=12

**Oberst Hajj** · 10-21-2010 14:51

Let me try and shed a little light on this sponsor thing and the rules.

First, the rules covering this is in an announcement at the top of every forum section (in a pinkish color). We are currently working on getting a nice "Rules" section created and posted up for everyone to easily find and read. As all things, this takes time and I've very short on that at the moment.

Next, the decision to allow paid advertising on the site was a tough one for me. From the very beginning I wanted this site to be a free place of fans of the game to be able to come to and easily find missions, downloads, local players to play against, and the friendliest community just to hang out with and talk Wings of War.

Creating a site like this is not easy from any aspect. The two biggest issues is the time needed to create and manage the site and to actually entice new members to join. In the very early stages of building this site when there was not an established community to do most of the work in "recruiting" new members, I personally purchased items to give out as prizes to help draw people in. This was over the actual cost of the host for the site and the software to run it. Now there are the expenses of maintaining the licenses and lately, switching hosts.

I'm grateful for the members that continue to donate funds to help maintain the site and cover the cost of prizes for our contests.

Then comes the amount of time need to build and maintain a forum like this. I could not even tell you the number of hours I put in the first couple of months to make this site function and grow the way it did. I can tell you now that I put in close to 20 hours a week in maintaining and improve it. At some point as a site admin, one has to decide if a site is taking to much of your time for the non tangible returns that it brings to you personally. Honestly, I passed that point about 3 months ago. Not long after Cool Stuff Inc contacted me about advertising here on the site and a deal was struck. This has allowed me to at least justify some of the time I dump into to the site. It also pretty much kept me from just letting the site coast along as it is.

Back to the rule a little bit. The rule is intended to make sure our sponsors have the support of our community as best as possible when it comes to online stores. I am completely happy for members to support their local brick and mortar game store. I am also well aware that the current site sponsor does not fit everyone's need, especially those outside of the US. To that end, I have already had discussions with the Wing and Squadron commanders (and a few members) on ways to solve this issue.

One of the ways we are looking at is to create regional sections here on the site. This could help with our mission of connecting local players together while still keep our international appear. The other thing it could do is allow for regional sponsorship of those sections. Like all things, working out how best to do this and then actually getting it done takes time and money (does anyone else see a viciousness cycle forming here?).

I guess the bottom line is this: Running this site takes both time and money and those things have to be compensated for. Adding sponsors covers those problems. Are we at the best solution right now, I would agree that we are not. I am aware of that and I am trying to find the best way to improve it.

**gregbond77** · 10-21-2010 15:08

I have no problem with the site sponser. In fact I did not even know about them, so now I have another resource from which to purchase WoW stuff. As for not allowing us to give free advertisement to other sources, no problem. If they want to advertise here they should pay for it. I have even spoken to the owner of a kit manufacturing company and suggested he advertise on this site. But why should he pay when he can get it for free?(not anymore!) I think he has sold quite a few kits from being mentioned on this site. So I agree with not mentioning other business on this site.

**Dom S** · 10-21-2010 15:48

Originally Posted by gregbond77

If they want to advertise here they should pay for it.

My understanding is that until Keith decides how to structure things going forward other firms *can't* take out any advertising though - there's one sponsor and one sponsor only, at least for the time being. (Col - please correct me if I have a crossed wire here.) If and when that changes (see his comments above about looking at regional forums) it'll become less of an issue, but I can't think of many non company-owned forums where even discussing non-advertisers is banned - it runs the risk of damaging the usefulness of the community. ("Where can I get a Fokker triplane?" "Nowhere.")

Dom. (Who'd better go on record and say yes I am "trade" myself, so feel free to apply a healthy dose of cynicism analysing my opinion.... That said, I'd happily take out a paid advert myself, and still consider banning the mere discussion of non-advertisers odd....)

**LeBru** · 10-21-2010 18:57

I realize my opinion probably isn't worth anything but I'll offer it anyway.

Like I said in the above post, I do most of my WoW orders through CoolStuff because I've had good experiences with them so far and because they usually win out on prices. I don't know what sort of agreement was made with the site—what the conditions of the sponsorship were—but generally I do a bit of shopping around when considering an order and the price comparison is usually what pushes me towards making an order from CS's site. So I guess what I'm getting at is that I actually think it would be to the sponsor's benefit if people were linking the site along with other vendors (as opposed to avoiding store links altogether which is I think more likely to happen under the current rules as people will be afraid to post any links). Personally, I generally don't pay much attention to advertisements on forums, or at least not as much as I do to recommended links within posts. So I think the sponsor would probably see some additional benefit from an environment that encouraged vendor links ... so long as the sponsor's link appears alongside other vendors'.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I would recommend a policy that encourages linking to vendor sites rather than banning it, but one that also stresses giving equal or higher visibility to official sponsors of the website. That could be done by having moderators post a link to the sponsor in the appropriate threads or by asking regular members to also link sponsors whenever they link other vendors. Of course blatant advertising of non-sponsors should probably be heavily moderated, but I don't think I've ever seen anything like that on this site.

It at least seems to make sense with a sponsor like CoolStuff since their prices are competitive with and usually lower than other sites, but again I don't know what the terms of the agreement were.

Just my 2¢ ... which comes in Monopoly money.

**LeBru** · 10-21-2010 19:16

Also a semi-related question:

Does the Aerodrome see any benefit from orders placed on the sponsor's site by following the advertiser link on this one? I had never really thought about it before reading this thread and so I've always just gone directly to CoolStuff's page, but if it helps the Aerodrome I'll make a point of clicking the advertisement from now on ... even if it's just to let the sponsor know that their presence on this site is bringing them business.

**bumblie3** · 10-22-2010 08:19

Col, thank you for your explanation and I accept what you say, in the main. However, in the past, members have asked about hard to find miniatures or boxed sets. In my visits to websites (I have no LGS) I have sometimes found, the required items, and I have found one or two UK stores with good ranges, reasonable prices, and postage, and fast delivery, which I was able to post in the past. I guess the only way to inform anyone now is to PM the individual, unless you consider this an infringement of the intention of your ruling?

I have no problem with CoolStuffinc as a sponsor, except that it is of little use to me in the UK. I am sure it is terrific for US members, but I doubt that I, personally, will find a use for CoolStuffinc.

John

**Pope** · 10-22-2010 09:54

This is a hard one, as I can understand and agree with both sides of the coin. In my view Keith has done a great job in setting up the site and has had to make some difficult decisions to ensure the growing success of the site and the community.

John’s point is valid as a site sponsor located in the US does not serve the needs of the majority of UK based forum members. I also have to admit that I have benefited from being directed to two great UK based suppliers to complement the service I get from my LGS. John also supplied me with all the mother in law jokes I needed recently so I owe him big time.

But if I understand it correctly Keith is fully aware of the issue and is working on it.

What I was wondering was if non US flight members could use their Flight Forum to swap details of suppliers or point out stores that had provided them with high quality service. I’m sure that we could be trusted to self regulate it and in the GB Flight I’m sure Rob would ensure the official line was followed.

Cheers Aled

**gregbond77** · 10-22-2010 16:09

The way I understand it, is if someone ask where to get a particular plane, kit, or decal we are allowed to point the person in the right direction. Again no problem with that as that is one of the main benefits of this site. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I had an idea. Why not let the kit manufacturers, decal suppliers, etc. advertise through Threads. They could work out a deal with Keith and pay so much per month or per Thread. The Thread Heading could be of a different color and alert people to new products comming out. Those who have no interest could skip the Thread. That seems like a win win situation. Keith gets financial support, and the people with products to sell have an unobtrusive way to let people know about their products.

**Oberst Hajj** · 10-22-2010 19:02

As it stands right now, PMing people info when they as for info is perfectly fine with me. I would even suggest replying that you sent them a PM with store info so that others coming along later could contact you for that same info. I'd even be willing to allow you guys to post store info and links in your profile sections (very last box in Edit Your Details of the User CP) to make it easy to refer people to it.

One of the other things I'm looking into with the next forum software upgrade is to allow sponsor ads to show up only to people from a certain country or region. That could help with the whole international thing.

I don't thing the pay per thread idea will work... the logistics of it cant really be done with out some type of custom coding to the site. Good idea though.

**bumblie3** · 10-23-2010 03:42

Originally Posted by Col. Hajj

As it stands right now, PMing people info when they as for info is perfectly fine with me. I would even suggest replying that you sent them a PM with store info so that others coming along later could contact you for that same info. I'd even be willing to allow you guys to post store info and links in your profile sections (very last box in Edit Your Details of the User CP) to make it easy to refer people to it.

One of the other things I'm looking into with the next forum software upgrade is to allow sponsor ads to show up only to people from a certain country or region. That could help with the whole international thing.

Sorry to cover what may be obvious to everyone but me....
In para 1, are you saying that if I asked about Skytrex or Reverisco, we should only be replied to via PM or can these be openly discussed in a forum?

In para 2, I think that all members should be able to look at all Sponsors if they choose. One Sponsor may hold a stock of boxed sets or hard to get miniatures, and if the individual is happy to pay the S/H in order to fill the gaps in his or her collection, then they can still find a source for the item. In this way out of country Sponsors can still be supported as well as the local sponsors. I think maybe a Sponsor list showing 'Local' and 'Foreign' Sponsors made clear by region or Country would do the job?

John.

**Oberst Hajj** · 10-23-2010 16:06

Skytrex or Reverisco can be openly discussed, but linking to them in a post is not allowed at this time.

The regional thing will just have to be worked out once some type of regional option is available here on the site.