Can anyone identify time, place, or unit?
This picture came from my wife's family, and hangs on the wall in my man cave. I have not seen this in print anywhere else, although I cannot say it is not.
I am wondering if the collective wisdom here has any guesses as to the Jasta pictured?
Thoughts?
G'day Bob!
Mate after browsing my Osprey Pfalz Scout Aces of WW1 book there is only one illustration with a similar "dark" coloured nose & that is for Jasta 32B which had a Black nose & tail for their Jasta ID in December 1917.
No other illustrations showing a dark nose on any Pfalz's.
Hope that might help.
Cool pic, Bob... a great find! And a wonderful opportunity to put my library to use.Originally Posted by gully_raker
My initial research into this photo echoed Barry's. The Osprey titles are excellent, and a great place to begin. The Jasta Pilots (Franks, Bailey, and Duiven, Grub Street, 1996) made matters worse, however, as it identified a number of Jasta's sporting "dark noses." I was all set to concur with Barry that it was most likely a line of Jasta 32b or Jasta 77b Pfalz D.IIIs, but then I started thinking about the difficulties associated with interpreting colors in old German photos.
This led me to look more closely at the photo, and a number of things stood out. First, the almost complete absence of personal markings (only the 3rd and 4th aircraft from the right (far in the background) bear any obvious identifying marks (a diagonal band and a large "W", respectively) made me think that this was an early photo of D.IIIs, so I shifted my focus to the units who first received the D.III (in August and September 1917). The machines in the photo also appeared to bear the earlier (pre-D.IIIa) lower wing tips and I couldn't make out any MGs on the upper decking, another modification adopted in the D.IIIa which further confirmed my suspicions.
My copy of Gray and Thetford's excellent German Aircraft of the First World War (Putnam, mine is a 1987 reprint of 1962 original) identifies this exact photo as a line of Pfalz D.IIIs of Jasta 10 on Courtrai aerodrome, and is dated autumn 1917 (p190). The "dark" noses are most likely painted in the Jasta's identifying yellow, a color which displays much darker than one would expect in German b/w photos dating from the war.
As an aside, this fact helps to explain the controversy/disagreement surrounding the cowling color of Voss' experimental triplane (Fokker F.I 103/17). Olive and chromgelb ("chrome yellow") appear strikingly similar in contemporary photographs, and though it's believed the triplane was delivered with an olive nose, it may have been repainted to match those of its Jasta 10 stablemates prior to Voss' final and bloody epic dogfight with a number of aces flying for No.56 Sqn RFC, including JTB McCudden, RTC Hoidge, and APF Rhys-Davids (who was ultimately credited with bringing down Voss).
There are several titles I'd be happy to recommend which cover this engagement in detail, both from the German and English perspectives.
The Jasta's Albatros scouts were decorated in such a fashion as early as the late summer of 1917. This was retained and supplemented (often, but not always) by yellow struts and wheel covers on Pfalz D.IIIs and, eventually, on Fokker D.VIIs. Additionally, the newly-arrived Pfalz machines retained their factory-finish silver fuselages for some time, which would explain the comparatively "lighter" fuselages depicted in the photo.
The Nexus Pfalz D.III of Hans Klein (Jasta 10), by the way, is a good example of this color scheme.
Though I cannot definitively confirm that Owen and Thetford are correct, I am more than comfortable accepting their description.
Hope my (overly long) explanation has helped!
Chris
Last edited by fast.git; 03-05-2016 at 20:00.
Splendid. While we're at it, here's a photo that is no longer in a frame. Sleuths have at it....
If it is Jasta 10, the Pfalz well down the line with the bands on either side of the National Insignia could be Voss' Pfalz....!?Cool pic, Bob... a great find! And a wonderful opportunity to put my library to use.
My initial research into this photo echoed Barry's. The Osprey titles are excellent, and a great place to begin. The Jasta Pilots (Franks, Bailey, and Duiven, Grub Street, 1996) made matters worse, however, as it identified a number of Jasta's sporting "dark noses." I was all set to concur with Barry that it was most likely a line of Jasta 32b or Jasta 77b Pfalz D.IIIs, but then I started thinking about the difficulties associated with interpreting colors in old German photos.
This led me to look more closely at the photo, and a number of things stood out. First, the almost complete absence of personal markings (only the 3rd and 4th aircraft from the right (far in the background) bear any obvious identifying marks (a diagonal band and a large "W", respectively) made me think that this was an early photo of D.IIIs, so I shifted my focus to the units who first received the D.III (in August and September 1917). The machines in the photo also appeared to bear the earlier (pre-D.IIIa) lower wing tips and I couldn't make out any MGs on the upper decking, another modification adopted in the D.IIIa which further confirmed my suspicions.
My copy of Gray and Thetford's excellent German Aircraft of the First World War (Putnam, mine is a 1987 reprint of 1962 original) identifies this exact photo as a line of Pfalz D.IIIs of Jasta 10 on Courtrai aerodrome, and is dated autumn 1917 (p190). The "dark" noses are most likely painted in the Jasta's identifying yellow, a color which displays much darker than one would expect in German b/w photos dating from the war.
As an aside, this fact helps to explain the controversy/disagreement surrounding the cowling color of Voss' experimental triplane (Fokker F.I 103/17). Olive and chromgelb ("chrome yellow") appear strikingly similar in contemporary photographs, and though it's believed the triplane was delivered with an olive nose, it may have been repainted to match those of its Jasta 10 stablemates prior to Voss' final and bloody epic dogfight with a number of aces flying for No.56 Sqn RFC, including JTB McCudden, RTC Hoidge, and APF Rhys-Davids (who was ultimately credited with bringing down Voss).
There are several titles I'd be happy to recommend which cover this engagement in detail, both from the German and English perspectives.
The Jasta's Albatros scouts were decorated in such a fashion as early as the late summer of 1917. This was retained and supplemented (often, but not always) by yellow struts and wheel covers on Pfalz D.IIIs and, eventually, on Fokker D.VIIs. Additionally, the newly-arrived Pfalz machines retained their factory-finish silver fuselages for some time, which would explain the comparatively "lighter" fuselages depicted in the photo.
The Nexus Pfalz D.III of Hans Klein (Jasta 10), by the way, is a good example of this color scheme.
Though I cannot definitively confirm that Owen and Thetford are correct, I am more than comfortable accepting their description.
Hope my (overly long) explanation has helped!
Chris
I'm comfortable with the photo being of Jasta 10... the details fit nicely, and the Gray and Thetford text has an excellent reputation.
If correct, it could the factory-new Pfalz Voss received upon his assumption of command of the Jasta on 30 July, but he believed it inferior to his Albatros and flew it infrequently... though he may have scored as many as four victories in this machine. Additionally, Voss was assigned the 2nd Fokker prototype in late August and began flying it immediately... so if the banded Pfalz is the one assigned Voss, it might not have been so for very long after the photo was taken.
As for your second photo, the caption identifies it as a (pardon my rusty/poor translation skills... it's been decades since I last spoke any French) "German pursuit ("fighter") biplane with 2 machine guns [something about] Airmen" and the location is identified as being in "Lunéville, France on 14 August." Lunéville is in the region of Lorraine (eastern France).
Both civilians and French military are in attendance, so it's obviously a forced down and/or captured aircraft. The Balkenkreuz ("beam or bar cross") places the date of the photo as post-April 1918, and most likely towards the end of the war, if not post-war. From a quick, cursory investigation, it appears as though the caption may be wrong... for the aircraft in question is likely not a single-seat aircraft... it is most certainly not a Fokker D.VII.
Rather, it bears a striking similarity to a DFW C.V (one of the most successful German two-seaters), especially two-bay wing cellule with vertical struts, the tailplane (both vertical and horizontal stabilizers) and the wingtips (upper squared off and wider to the rear, and the lower rounded towards the trailing edge). Roughly 2000 were built by DFW, with another 1250 built under licence by Aviatik (as the DFW C.V(Av) or Aviatik C.VI), Halberstadt, LVG, and Schütte-Lanz.
I can't be certain... but that's my best guess as fatigue starts to inform me that it's somewhat past the time at which I should be asleep.
I noticed the struts were also coloured in the dark shade & you are correct that early German B & W's are a curse to try to interpret.
I have seen pics of Kline's aircraft showing what looks like a black nose when it is well known it was yellow.
Well done mate!
I agree - the "two machine guns" are probably one front, and one rear.
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
It is commonly mentioned that orthochromatic film displays Jasta 10 "chrome yellow" as black - I'm in full agreement here.
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
On the original photo one can see some letters in the shadow under the rear stabilizer which show a "W" at the end of one line and a "V" at the end of another, reinforcing the DFW C.V theory.
My thoughts, exactly.
Excellent.
Over the front #20 quotes DFW C.V 2379/18, matching the number on fuselage:
https://books.google.it/books?id=1Ls...zyAsoQ6AEIKzAA
The research work on these has been most excellent!
I have found this webpage with the second photograph on it. The town where the plane was displayed was Nancy. It seems that they made a habit of displaying captured aircraft there. It is possible to enlarge the photograph and see a much clearer image and it is easier to read the serial numbers. http://www.blamont.info/galerieavionnancy.html
Fascinating collection. How I have a print (beyond "from my in-law's attic" ) is unknown. I do see that while their photos were great, their identification of aircraft left something to be desired.I have found this webpage with the second photograph on it. The town where the plane was displayed was Nancy. It seems that they made a habit of displaying captured aircraft there. It is possible to enlarge the photograph and see a much clearer image and it is easier to read the serial numbers. http://www.blamont.info/galerieavionnancy.html
I wish I had more photos to share - what a great bit of sleuthing - the people on this forum are non pareil!
I am late to the party on this one but, raiding my own books here and looking on Wiki, I would concur with the second aeroplane being a DFW CV.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFW_C.V
Wiki points out that it was a twin-bay construction (i.e. two sets of interplane struts in each wing).
Wiki also points out that DFW machines had a vertical chimney exhaust but LVG machines had a horizontal exhaust. If you look over the centre of the top wing you can see the chimney exhaust. At first I thought this was a piece of French street furniture until I cross checked with Wiki.
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